disastermouse
Banned
I'm in a swing state, too! Wisconsin could be tight.
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PoliGAF 2015-2016 |OT3| If someone named PhoenixDark leaves your party, call the cops
- Thread starter Diablos
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I don't think that's much of a counterpoint. Gore and the establishment failed pretty hard if he couldn't manage an extra 600 votes.
Haha. Hillary fans are too easily goaded. Relax, guys!
RastaMentality
Banned
I keep hearing "I'm voting for Bernie" when I know a majority of these people most definitely aren't going to vote in the primaries.
Keep your head high, and be cordial. That's really most of what can be done.
User 463088
Banned
Well...I mean, that's not really how it works. However, Gore screwed up a lot in 2000. His mistakes would have been minimized if Nader hadn't run. Nader wasn't the sole problem, but he contributed to the problems that cost Gore the election.
And, apparently, my brother voted for Nader in 2000. Although we don't talk politics, I'm fairly sure he's a fiscally conservative but socially liberal Republican. I feel shame.
RustyNails
Member
You can vote your actual views and conscience (or not vote) but in United States it will funnel into the two party system. A vote for Jill Stein is effectively a lost Hillary vote. Meaning, it favors Republican candidate. Similarly if Rand were to run third party, a vote for Rand is a lost GOP vote, meaning, it favors the Democratic candidate. This sad reality is the face of a two-party system in America. A conscience vote like the one you wish to cast is more apropos to a European or Indian parliamentary style election. In that election, you will vote for the party closest to your views (not cadidates). The party with the majority of MPs will form the government and select their PM. If not, they will form a governing coalition that aligns close to a majority ruling party.
By all means cast your vote for Jill Stein. At least you will have the peace of mind that you voted your conscience.
disastermouse
Banned
No. Bernie is not my great white (red?) hope. And I'm not voting for my opposition. Jill Stein is more aligned to my views than Hillary.
It takes more than a presidency to turn things around, I just think a presidency is a good start. Even though Bernie's not a real socialist, I'm thrilled to see the label applied to good ideas even if they don't go far enough. Heck, liberal reforms might actually save capitalism until the next crisis, which, as a socialist, isn't necessarily the best thing either, it's just far more likely to make lives easier for the working class.
If I honestly thought that Hillary would do more good than harm, I'd vote for her. I don't think she would. Conservatives are winning because they're voting to win their issues. Liberals are voting to 'not lose as quickly' and that just doesn't work for me. I need more than not losing as quickly. ACA wasn't a win. Gay marriage was, but that wasn't a presidential push - if anything, Obama followed. He was able to remove some road blocks, but he wasn't part of the push. I'm grateful for that, but I don't think his participation was required.
How do you think gay marriage would have gone without his two Supreme Court Justice picks?
It was 5-4 with his picks.
Macho Madness
Member
Oh, Bernie's plan is federalist? Wow. That's ummm. Yeah. That's where my vote is going.
User 463088
Banned
The plan he introduced 9 times in the Senate wasn't.
The one he released today is.
#Consistency
Edit: To be clear, I'm glad he evolved on this issue. His 2013 plan was pure shit, and Hillary was right for hitting him to release details on his new plan.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
There's still a difference between voting for the opposition and not voting / third party.
If you vote for the opposition out of spite, you've created a two vote differential. If you don't vote or go third party, you've only cost one potential vote they could have had, but it didn't go against anyone.
There is a reasonable argument over whether that is a substantive enough difference to merit distinction in terms of any culpability in our first past the post system. I just think that people are going to vote third party no matter what though, on both sides of the aisle. Our rates of voter participation are low enough that you can easily exceed the sum of third party voters by increasing turnout a couple percentage points.
If you vote for the opposition out of spite, you've created a two vote differential. If you don't vote or go third party, you've only cost one potential vote they could have had, but it didn't go against anyone.
There is a reasonable argument over whether that is a substantive enough difference to merit distinction in terms of any culpability in our first past the post system. I just think that people are going to vote third party no matter what though, on both sides of the aisle. Our rates of voter participation are low enough that you can easily exceed the sum of third party voters by increasing turnout a couple percentage points.
User 463088
Banned
She's gone so far right, she's gone around the corner.
disastermouse
Banned
I know how the system works. I know that it sucks. I'm not willing to vote against my conscience simply because the system sucks. What's the point of having a conscience if you never listen to it? Without doing that, how do we ever change the system to one that doesn't suck? Any candidate elected in the shitty system is unlikely to advocate for changing it - though there may be rare exceptions. Kshama participates in the system, but I don't doubt for a second that she'd work towards dismantling it and building something better even if it allowed some other candidate to beat her. I don't think power is her primary focus. Similarly, I don't think power is Bernie's primary focus either.
I'm not entirely un-pragmatic - I'll vote for Bernie. It bends my conscience as a Marxist to do so. Voting for Hillary doesn't bend my conscience, it shatters it. I don't think I can drink enough to silence the screaming objection of my conscience were I to vote for her.
I don't need you to feel the same way. I'd like the opportunity to advocate my views to you and I appreciate this forum! This is actually the most intelligent and reasonable online forum for politics that I've ever seen! And I don't blame you for resenting me either. We feel differently about the best way to advocate for our views and I accept that. I just think that, even for the Democratic Party, Hillary is a weak candidate - mostly owing to the context of this particular election.
I don't think you're crazy or entirely irrational or morally compromised. I just think you're wrong.
Macho Madness
Member
Has Hillary really not proposed a plan for UHC? That's a pretty big deal to me.
I hate to say it, but there's not going to any more movement on healthcare for at least 20 years. At this point we're stuck with the ACA and trying to protect it, the best we can hope for is a public option.
One will probably exist long after every candidate running on any particular party in this race are all long fucking dead.
disastermouse
Banned
I don't believe this, and it's a cynical, pessimistic, prevent-defense tactic.
Definitely MSNBC for my main coverage.. but I'll be flipping back and forth to CNN for Carville/Brazille goodness.
CNN's got Carville back? I love me some Ragin' Cajun!
This sounds suspiciously like fighting game speak. What tiers?
Crap. I just googled - looks like now he's on Fox News.
So I guess I'll see him on General Election night.
Im drawing a blank there.. the last fighting game I've played was Brawl. 😋
Russia Today is my choice. Can't wait to see my bro Ed Schultz.
me too
And_Gignac
Member
Bernie is flopping so hard I just cant watch the dbate anymore.
#JillStein2016
#JillStein2016
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Sanders is completely wrong on how politics works. That's my major reason for not supporting him.
He's completely naive for being in politics for decades.
He's completely naive for being in politics for decades.
where in the world did you get your avatar lol.
User 463088
Banned
Bernie's best shot was on the healthcare thing and he completely blew it.
Hillary owned his ass on guns.
Hillary owned his ass on guns.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
And_Gignac
Member
He is not wrong, politics can work the way he would like to. This may the end of Sanders, but of his brand of polittics. Maybe one day the US will be ready for its very own Podemos.
Can I just say that it is fantastic :lol
NYCmetsfan
Banned
How does this happen, what in history is evidence for this?
NYCmetsfan
Banned
How much different would the health care debate if the SCOTUS wouldn't have had gutted medicaid expansion.
the ACA was universal (minus a few million).
the ACA was universal (minus a few million).
Four_Chamber
Member
Wow, this debate is so refreshing compared to the GOP circus
User 463088
Banned
So Bernie's really going to pin his hope on "Yes you're going to pay more taxes, but it will save you in the long run."
Ya, good luck with that.
Ya, good luck with that.
JesseEwiak
Member
Hey, we only need 50% youth unemployment and a total collapse of the economy, along with it coming out the heads of the major liberal party were literally paid off, not Hillary PAC money paid off, but literally given kickbacks paid off, to get 3rd place!
UltimaPooh
Member
I mean yeah, it doesn't do him any favors but it shows he actually has a formulated plan.
Hildawg doesn't have any outlined plans...
JesseEwiak
Member
It's called, "we passed the ACA and it cost us the House and almost the Senate and the Presidency. Let's not to anything major like that for a few years until we figure out what the major kinks are with the ACA."
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Someone feeling the Bern.
User 463088
Banned
She has plans for health care. She just doesn't believe in getting rid of the ACA and fighting the whole thing over. Her plans are incremental. They are there, though.
Like whoever tweeted this can't figure out why :lol
UltimaPooh
Member
That's not a plan. That's an idea. Does she even have a one page paper on how to get there?
Bernie doesn't want to dismantle either and you know that it's a lie that he would want to... Because he would.be expanind an already in place system of Medicare.
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