Keep in mind this is in the context of a discussion that blames disillusioned voters first, and completely ignores any responsibility of the people in power. If people believe that, it's fine but then ordinary voters are also to blame for nearly every other thing that ails the country.
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PoliGAF 2015-2016 |OT3| If someone named PhoenixDark leaves your party, call the cops
- Thread starter Diablos
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User 463088
Banned
By getting rid of everything else we already have, including CHIP, Medicaid and private insurance. His plan, which is politically unfeasible, would get rid of the ACA. I have no problems with moving towards single payer, but it's not reasonable. It will not happen in 4 or 8 years. So, if this is Bernie's only plan, and it inevitably fails, what then? How does he want to make the ACA better.
UltimaPooh
Member
I also disagree that incremental will work.
No matter what you do it will always be a bitter fight to get progress... So if we're gonna waste capital... You might as well go for the goal...
Because that's what the other side is doing in their "negotiations."
No matter what you do it will always be a bitter fight to get progress... So if we're gonna waste capital... You might as well go for the goal...
Because that's what the other side is doing in their "negotiations."
Ugh. So obvious why.
JesseEwiak
Member
Absolutely. You think I won't blame the average person? The average person is dumb, but the universal franchise is the best system we have that doesn't install oligarchies automatically.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Progress can go backwards. That's what you're forgetting. Every single thing Obama did could be gone in 4 years if the GOP dominate government after 2016.
UltimaPooh
Member
We'll cross that bridge when we get there?
UltimaPooh
Member
I'm not forgetting that.
But that's what happens when people become complacent.
User 463088
Banned
Right. We tried that. We lost. We didn't get the public option even when we had control of the House and a Super Majority in the Senate. This is not a winning argument. We couldn't get an optional public option through, but we can magically get Medicare for everyone through.
Didn't the medicare expansion also get struck down by the supreme court?
JesseEwiak
Member
The bridge that's called "middle class voters move to the GOP when they lose access to their private insurance at their job and the public insurance while cheaper is less expansive and in some cases that will be highlighted by billionaire PAC's over and over again."
That's not even getting into the fact that Canadian or British style single payer isn't the best plan - give me France's or Germany's health care plan anyday.
UltimaPooh
Member
Yeah we did lose.
So lets try it again?
Maybe it.isn't feasible. And you guys are probably right... It would be next to impossible to do.
But maybe this next time.... We get something a little strong by going strong in the first place.
User 463088
Banned
Medicaid expansion because of how it was tied to funding for the other aspects of Medicaid.
I knew it was something like that, thanks for the correction.
Aaron Strife
Banned
Not exactly. Originally Obamacare mandated that every state expand Medicaid or they'd lose their Medicaid funding, SCOTUS declared that unconstitutional leverage over the states which is why Wisconsin, Texas etc. don't have it. But more states opted in than didn't including several red states like Ohio.
So, you like democracy because dumb people occasionally have some utility for you?
UltimaPooh
Member
Well honestly I would be fine with a Japanese style system.
But that's still a lot of contentious debates. People are acting like making ACA better isn't going to come with a bunch of push back by the GOP. It will have the same.amount when the ACA was first started.
JesseEwiak
Member
...or we fail horribly like we did in '94, and lose the chance for major reform for a generation. Public policy isn't like baseball, you just can't go back to the batting cage the next day. Any kind of major reform that months of works of dealing with Congresspeople, stakeholders, public policy experts, economists, and so on, and so forth.
That's not even going into the fact there is limited time in a session, so every day you're spending on health care is a day you're not spending on racial justice issues or LGBT issues or tax policy or a million other things that are also important.
If there was a way to have a technocracy that'd actually be a net positive in the long run, I'd be all for it. Unfortunately, I see no evidence that is possible with humanity.
And_Gignac
Member
The US doesnt live in a vacuum. The center-left is dying in all the major western countries. And Sanders + Occupy Wallstreet are testament of that.
and wow poor Clinton even when she wins she loses!
tbh most (the very few of them) undecided voters are undecided because they lean Sanders
User 463088
Banned
I don't think that Kofinis understands what undecided is supposed to mean...but sure.
I dunno, Greece seems to be on its way to the promised land.
QuiteWhittle
Member
I wonder when a state like Texas will ever expand Medicaid. Every swing state or blue state will get Medicaid expansion eventually and the less ideological red states in the west will probably start acquiescing soon, but red states like Texas and Alabama only seem to elect the biggest and loudest wingnut assholes to office. It seems like they'll never do it.
Like I pointed out in the other thread, focus groups are good for finding out why people are going a certain way not for finding out which way people are going.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Found this pic of O'Malley from tonight's debate
And_Gignac
Member
Man seriously let me dream. This night has been terrible, I need something to hold on to something. ;__;
Go look at the google search trends posted in the debate thread, I'm sure those will lift your spirits.
RustyNails
Member
The only thing that's going to come out of this debate is Bernie flatly saying "taxes are going to increase for some middle class families."
The End.
The children in the debate OT do not realize this, but this is going to damage Berns.
The End.
The children in the debate OT do not realize this, but this is going to damage Berns.
User 463088
Banned
Go look at the google search trends posted in the debate thread, I'm sure those will lift your spirits.
That's always the way it is, though. I think each debate has shown that Bernie is the most searched and Twatted about during.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Bernie and Rubio would respond to anything with their stump speech.
Aliens could invade and Bernie would be talking about billionaires, Goldman, and the top 1%.
Aliens could invade and Bernie would be talking about billionaires, Goldman, and the top 1%.
Indeed. It's not fair but it's reality and why one needs to be kind of crafty/pragmatic with how they word things and formulate policy/details in politics.
In the sense that they're wandering in the desert and eating bugs.
Officerrob
Banned
I could not agree more
QuiteWhittle
Member
Good debate. But as for who won... hmm. Not O'Malley. I don't think Sanders knocked it out of the park like he needed to, and admitting to raising taxes on the middle class will be a damning sound bite. Clinton did good on the issues she's good with and she didn't stumble on the ones she's not strong on. O'Malley sounded desperate.
JesseEwiak
Member
The JFK would be a Republican today thing is the 2nd funniest thing behind the MLK was a Republican thing.
You might as well thread that.
Yeah. Ouch.
disastermouse
Banned
The Wall Steet question will kill her. If not in the primary, certainly in the general. She doesn't have a believable answer.
Officerrob
Banned
It was basically a repeat of the previous debates as far as performance, but Bernie's health care tax stuff is going to be an issue
It's actually kind of dangerous for Cruz to reveal his accent work! You know that Southern preacher voice is a put on.
It will not because a Republican can't answer it any better
Trump is totally going to attack him on this
Also they've got other issues. The general isn't just about Wall Street.
disastermouse
Banned
Trump. No money from PACs. People will believe it too.
What's he going to do about all his racism though? He can't walk that shit back, he'll be dead the instant he hits the general.
If anyone here wants to, they're welcome to take the image. As a rule, I try to avoid any and all thread-making activities (especially of the controversial variety). I'm a coward in that regard, and it's served me well over the years.
The only thread I'd still like to do for 2016, assuming Hillary is the nominee, is The Compendium of SNL Political Sketches of the 1990s. And that'd mainly be because there are going to be a LOT of references to that material, especially if the Clintons are in the political spotlight for the next 5-9 years.
User 463088
Banned
Bernie fumbled on the gun issue. Hillary was able to hit him hard on that. Again, he cannot formulate a response to that because his position is and has always been wrong. He won't come out and admit it, although he did take a look at it. Bernie again showed he cannot answer a single question without going back to his stump speech. I'm not sure if he lacks the instinct to do that, or he simply just don't want to do that. If I had to guess, it's a little bit of both.
The sound bite will be Bernie admitting he is going to raise taxes. Because he is. He's going to raise taxes on everyone. When we get into the "Ya...but...." I still don't think that's an argument he's going to win.
Hillary was the only one who mentioned LGBT issues tonight. She's the one who brought up Flint. Again, Bernie missed the whole point of the point of the Bill Clinton question, and managed to get his "disgusting" line in there again. Which...again, was the entire problem from the beginning.
I think Martin had a decent enough night. I don't think it changes anything because there's nothing there to change.
Hillary, wisely, reminded voters that she's the Democrat in the race. Her embrace of Obama was smart, politically and electorally. She also used it to subtly remind Democrats that Bernie hasn't been there like she has been.
There were several VERY bad optical moments for Bernie. His refusal to look up during the gun exchange, his sighs and the repeated question weren't great looks for him. (Only two of which were his fault.)
So, basically....nothing has changed. I think Hillary did what she needed to do. Bernie didn't land any blows to Hillary. Martin was adorable, and I want to have his babies.
The sound bite will be Bernie admitting he is going to raise taxes. Because he is. He's going to raise taxes on everyone. When we get into the "Ya...but...." I still don't think that's an argument he's going to win.
Hillary was the only one who mentioned LGBT issues tonight. She's the one who brought up Flint. Again, Bernie missed the whole point of the point of the Bill Clinton question, and managed to get his "disgusting" line in there again. Which...again, was the entire problem from the beginning.
I think Martin had a decent enough night. I don't think it changes anything because there's nothing there to change.
Hillary, wisely, reminded voters that she's the Democrat in the race. Her embrace of Obama was smart, politically and electorally. She also used it to subtly remind Democrats that Bernie hasn't been there like she has been.
There were several VERY bad optical moments for Bernie. His refusal to look up during the gun exchange, his sighs and the repeated question weren't great looks for him. (Only two of which were his fault.)
So, basically....nothing has changed. I think Hillary did what she needed to do. Bernie didn't land any blows to Hillary. Martin was adorable, and I want to have his babies.
Basileus777
Member
Trump will give a speech about how he used to have the Clintons in his back pocket.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Is there a way to sell universal healthcare without pointing out the fact that taxes will rise for some middle class families, but those families will be saving money once you take into account their savings from not paying for health insurance?
It's an unavoidable fact about universal healthcare. Did all those other countries that passed it somehow avoid that fact? I don't see how universal healthcare can ever pass without voters understanding that net savings is more important than net taxes.
I feel like people are getting way too hung up in the horse race side of this. We need to remember his role as a vehicle to get progressive ideas out there to not just to push Hillary left, but to push the general public left as well. Something that most people here seemed to agree with back when he was polling in the teens.
I suppose it's easy to forget that after months of the irritating Hillary and Bernie fans taking over Poligaf to relentlessly argue about electablity.
JesseEwiak
Member
Most other countries, even if they don't love taxes, simply don't have the "Vampire when he sees a cross" level of fear of increased taxes that modern America does.
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