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PoliGAF 2015-2016 |OT3| If someone named PhoenixDark leaves your party, call the cops
- Thread starter Diablos
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RustyNails
Member
All what you said is fine. I would support a tax hike for myself if we get the Bernie's plan to pass. The problem is twofold: First as Andrea Mitchell said, Bernie promised no new taxes on middle-class apart from paid family leave. Now he is proposing new middle-class taxes. It does not matter that he wants to swap premiums for a tax hike; the fact of the matter is federal government spending more money than before. Secondly, Americans usually stop reading after "new taxes...". Everything after that is dead on arrival.Is there a way to sell universal healthcare without pointing out the fact that taxes will rise for some middle class families, but those families will be saving money once you take into account their savings from not paying for health insurance?
It's an unavoidable fact about universal healthcare. Did all those other countries that passed it somehow avoid that fact? I don't see how universal healthcare can ever pass without voters understanding that net savings is more important than net taxes.
I feel like people are getting way too hung up in the horse race side of this. We need to remember his role as a vehicle to get progressive ideas out there to not just to push Hillary left, but to push the general public left as well. Something that most people here seemed to agree with back when he was polling in the teens.
I suppose it's easy to forget that after months of the irritating Hillary and Bernie fans taking over Poligaf to relentlessly argue about electablity.
YES YES YES
I need Admiral Stockdale and Ross Perot joyride in my life every day.
Who am I? Why am I here?
YES YES YES
I need Admiral Stockdale and Ross Perot joyride in my life every day.
http://www.hulu.com/watch/4123
GRIDLOCK!
(Dammit.. I have to be at work in 8 hours, but once I start watching, I have trouble stopping..)
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Most other countries, even if they don't love taxes, simply don't have the "Vampire when he sees a cross" level of fear of increased taxes that modern America does.
But how much of that is because nobody on the left ever had enough courage to defend the fact that taxes might be necessary for things like universal healthcare. Maybe it shouldn't start with the democratic nominee for president, but it has to start somewhere. There's never going to be a day when Americans calm down on taxes if there's no one prominent out there pushing it.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Vox on Bernie embracing some aspects of Ted Cruz's foreign policy:
http://www.vox.com/2016/1/17/10784574/democratic-debate-january-2016-sanders-isis
http://www.vox.com/2016/1/17/10784574/democratic-debate-january-2016-sanders-isis
JesseEwiak
Member
But how much of that is because nobody on the left never had enough courage to defend that taxes might be necessary for some things. Maybe it shouldn't start with the democratic nominee for president, but it has to start somewhere. There's never going to be a day when Americans calm down on taxes if there's no one prominent out there pushing it.
To be glib, Walter Mondale tried to do that, and lost 49 states. The larger point is, yes, I agree with Bernie, but frankly, health care isn't the policy to make that argument less than a decade since an acrimonious fight over a major health care reform. We're all (OK, maybe not the actual Marxists or Meta) aiming toward the same goal, we just disagree on the strategy and tactics.
VendettaRed07
Member
Most republicans wouldn't even bring it up. Trump would but he won't articulate it in the same way as Bernie has that really brings out her weakness on the issue. He'll likely go towards a personal attack "I bought you out and got you to come to my wedding" and then go to far and say something sexist.It will not because a Republican can't answer it any better
A race that is Trump against Hillary campaign finance reform and wallstreet will likely be lost in the shuffle
JesseEwiak
Member
Most republicans wouldn't even bring it up. Trump would but he won't articulate it in the same way as Bernie has that really brings out her weakness on the issue. He'll likely go towards a personal attack "I bought you out and got you to come to my wedding" and then go to far and say something sexist.
A race that is Trump against Hillary campaign finance reform and wallstreet will likely be lost in the shuffle
There's this weird fear that the minute he wins the nomination, Trump is going to come out for single payer, say abortion is cool, hug a gay couple, release a plan to break up Citibank, all while holding down his racist and sexist tendencies.
And that could happen, in theory. I could also wake up tomorrow in Allison Brie's bedroom.
Why is universal healthcare even part of Sanders' platform? What he wants will never be accomplished with a Republican congress and it opens him up to accusations that he'll raise taxes on the middle class.
This sort of stuff reinforces my opinion that he's a fine man with good intentions but a bad candidate.
This sort of stuff reinforces my opinion that he's a fine man with good intentions but a bad candidate.
There's this weird fear that the minute he wins the nomination, Trump is going to come out for single payer, say abortion is cool, hug a gay couple, release a plan to break up Citibank, all while holding down his racist and sexist tendencies.
And that could happen, in theory. I could also wake up tomorrow in Allison Brie's bedroom.
monday: "uh bad news, guys"
Hey, remember how Social Security originally only covered workers in particular industries, didn't have survivorship benefits, and had no provisions for increases in the cost of living? FDR was such a hack, he should have just junked the whole thing and started over. After all, there's no way the program could have been incrementally improved over time. That's just crazy.
User 463088
Banned
Hey, remember how Social Security originally only covered workers in particular industries, didn't have survivorship benefits, and had no provisions for increases in the cost of living? FDR was such a hack, he should have just junked the whole thing and started over. After all, there's no way the program could have been incrementally improved over time. That's just crazy.
What are you talking about. In American political history, you hit a home run every time you get up to bat. Only neo-liberal, corporate sell outs refuse to hold out until they get every single thing that you want.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
What are you talking about. In American political history, you hit a home run every time you get up to bat. Only neo-liberal, corporate sell outs refuse to hold out until they get every single thing that you want.
/Ted Cruz
User 463088
Banned
Also, dollars to doughnuts, most Millennial Berners would throw FDR under the bus if he were running today. Dude screamed oligarch.
JesseEwiak
Member
monday: "uh bad news, guys"
I mean, would I sentence America to 4 years of Trump as POTUS for one night with Ms. Brie? Well....
Also, dollars to doughnuts, most Millennial Berners would throw FDR under the bus if he were running today. Dude screamed oligarch.
Also, maybe this is me being a bitter old socialist, but Jesus, when I was a kid, the most liberal person I ever saw on the TV was Chris Matthews. The DNC front runner (in theory) was Joe Lieberman! Yes, the party isn't as liberal as it was on economics in 1968. But, it's far more liberal than it was in the 80's or 90's or even early 2000's. I mean, there's a reason why Bill Maher got popular among the Left, despite being an asshole in many ways.
Lol indeed.
dollars to donuts sounds like a miracle that police jesus performs
Not even a very good miracle, all he'd need is a Dunkin Donuts.
debate bump?
It's all going to stay the same, maybe O'Malley goes up due to people feeling bad for him.
User 463088
Banned
debate bump?
I think she refirms up her Iowa support, and SC is not 100% completely never, ever ever going to even possibly remotely ever happen for Bernie
The only thing that's going to come out of this debate is Bernie flatly saying "taxes are going to increase for some middle class families."
The End.
The children in the debate OT do not realize this, but this is going to damage Berns.
They realize it. They say the media is biased and in Hillary's pocket.
he did all this while assaulting an unarmed minority and lying about the circumstances in his official report. Show me another cop who can do all those things!Not even a very good miracle, all he'd need is a Dunkin Donuts.
Are you saying when social security was passed it wasn't a radical change in policy?Hey, remember how Social Security originally only covered workers in particular industries, didn't have survivorship benefits, and had no provisions for increases in the cost of living? FDR was such a hack, he should have just junked the whole thing and started over. After all, there's no way the program could have been incrementally improved over time. That's just crazy.
Are you saying when social security was passed it wasn't a radical change in policy?
It absolutely was, just like the PPACA was.
HARRY ENTEN 10:31 PM
Not really. What I do see, though, is Clinton clearly knows where her base is. She knows she needs black voters in her corner. That’s why she is wrapping herself in the Obama cloth. A lot of people think the Democratic base is exclusively white liberals; it’s not. It’s black Democrats. Unless Sanders can gain support among that group, this primary is over.
.
FARAI CHIDEYA 9:31 PM
The Clintons still have equity with black voters. Despite a growing recognition that the Clinton era brought about changes that swelled the prison system, primarily with blacks and Latinos, the Bill Clinton presidency was a time of relative prosperity for black America. But as black voters demonstrated in 2008, with South Carolina as a tipping point, Hillary Clinton will not be judged as black America’s default candidate. At the same time, I think Bernie Sanders may be seen as too risky of a bet by black voters.
JesseEwiak
Member
It absolutely was, just like the PPACA was.
Yup. Again, with the Medicaid expansion, the ACA is the biggest expansion of the welfare state since The Great Society. LBf'ingJ!
I mean, would I sentence America to 4 years of Trump as POTUS for one night with Ms. Brie? Well....
When you make a bargain with the devil...
Yup. Again, with the Medicaid expansion, the ACA is the biggest expansion of the welfare state since The Great Society. LBf'ingJ!
Universal health coverage has been the Holy Grail of progressivism since Teddy Roosevelt. Like Unca Joe said, it's a big fucking deal.
Incremental change is by definition not radical. So you'd say universal healthcare currently is even more radical than passing social security back then?It absolutely was, just like the PPACA was.
User 463088
Banned
Holy shit Vox went in against Bernie's "plan"
To be less generous but perhaps more accurate this is a document that lets Sanders say he has a plan, but doesn't answer the most important questions about how his plan would work, or what it would mean for most Americans. Sanders is detailed and specific in response to the three main attacks Clinton has launched, but is vague or unrealistic on virtually every other issue. The result is that he answers Clinton's criticisms while raising much more profound questions about his own ideas.
It's everything critics fear a single payer plan would be, and it lacks the kind of engagement with the problems of single-payer health systems necessary to win over skeptics.
Incremental change is by definition not radical. So you'd say universal healthcare currently is even more radical than passing social security back then?
If you're implying that the PPACA was incremental change, you're flat out wrong.
Incremental change is by definition not radical. So you'd say universal healthcare currently is even more radical than passing social security back then?
The ACA was not incremental change from healthcare previous to it. The ACA is huge change. Was and still is. That doesn't mean it doesn't have issues. But it was a big fucking deal and still is.
"The only way Republicans win is if they cheat."
They are cheating now as we speak. Voter ID, cutting back voting days and hours.
Since we have a Jungle Primary here I do if its a R vs R. Otherwise I vote D.
They are cheating now as we speak. Voter ID, cutting back voting days and hours.
Do y'all vote straight ticket in elections? (Since this is my first election) I was just curious since people bad mouth the existence of it but I can't see myself voting for the republicans in down ballot races either.
Since we have a Jungle Primary here I do if its a R vs R. Otherwise I vote D.
RastaMentality
Banned
Do y'all vote straight ticket in elections? (Since this is my first election) I was just curious since people bad mouth the existence of it but I can't see myself voting for the republicans in down ballot races either.
I'm not implying it's one or the other. Your point seems inconsistent. If it's a radical change, then there's no problem with advocating for radical change, but if we want to settle for incremental, then don't call it radical.If you're implying that the PPACA was incremental change, you're flat out wrong.
User 463088
Banned
Do y'all vote straight ticket in elections? (Since this is my first election) I was just curious since people bad mouth the existence of it but I can't see myself voting for the republicans in down ballot races either.
I've never voted for a Republican ever. If there's no Dem running for the seat, I write someone in or just go on. I always vote straight Dem.
The most pro-Sanders website too smh. Mess.
JesseEwiak
Member
Do y'all vote straight ticket in elections? (Since this is my first election) I was just curious since people bad mouth the existence of it but I can't see myself voting for the republicans in down ballot races either.
If I lived in a very red state, I might vote for the most liberal Republican to make things less shitty, but in general elections, straight ticket Democrat. I mean, there were Republican's in the 70's, 80's, or even 90's I could see voting for if the Democratic candidate wasn't great, but not today.
Liberals voting for "moderate" Republican's is how you get PhoenixDark endorsed Governor Snyder giving the OK to fuck with Flint's water supply.
I'm not implying it's one or the other. Your point seems inconsistent. If it's a radical change, then there's no problem with advocating for radical change, but if we want to settle for incremental, then don't call it radical.
The ACA was politically radical but policy-wise incremental. The backlash to it is why no Democratic President will touch health care aside from small fixes or at best, adding a public option, until 2028 or 2032.
Do y'all vote straight ticket in elections? (Since this is my first election) I was just curious since people bad mouth the existence of it but I can't see myself voting for the republicans in down ballot races either.
One of the purposes of political parties, arguably their main purpose, is to streamline the process of getting desired policy enacted by agreeing on a common policy platform. This makes voting easier, because instead of needing to exhaustively research the stances of every candidate, a voter can vote straight ticket with the expectation that the candidates will adhere to that platform. There are cases where that's not always true for certain policies, and depending on your stances and the state of local party leanings, voting for another party might make more sense for you. But in general, there's nothing wrong with straight ticket voting.
I will say that if Tim McGinty isn't primaried next time he's up for election, I'll be voting Republican for the first time in that race. The issue of not being a motherfucker who helped a cop get away with murdering a black kid outweighs pretty much all the other issues for that office as far as I'm concerned.
I'm not implying it's one or the other. Your point seems inconsistent. If it's a radical change, then there's no problem with advocating for radical change, but if we want to settle for incremental, then don't call it radical.
The post you replied to was snark regarding the current argument over Bernie's health care plan, and the implied assumption therein that the PPACA was completely unworkable and needs to be replaced whole cloth. My post used sarcasm to illustrate how one of our most beloved social safety net pillars also started off as an incomplete system, but was improved over time.
I don't know why you want to quibble over radical change vs. incrementalism here, because both are needed. Radical change is never dead on perfect, and needs incrementalism to refine and stabilize the change into a solid reliable system. It was good that we passed SS, and good that we improved on it, and it's good that we passed the PPACA, and it'll be good when we continue to improve on it.
Jack Remington
Banned
God I hate Yglesias. I have no idea how the dude became a prominent internet user.
Klein is also extremely overrated.
Klein is also extremely overrated.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Vox has "Bernie Sanders endorses Ted Cruz's foreign policy of giving blowjobs to dictators that violate human rights," "Bernie and Hillary give awful answers about ISIS," "Bernie's single payer plan is a joke," and "Bernie won the debate tonight." articles published in the last two hours, lol.
User 463088
Banned
Remember how socialism wasn't going to be a thing?
What Sanders Learned in Nicaragua
Plus, they paid for the trip for him.
Ya, that won't be an issue at all. Nope. Not at all. It's all good.
Among other things, during the 1970s and 80s, Sanders regularly called for public takeovers of various businesses, including utilities and the oil industry. Sanders advocated seizing money from corporations and from one of Americas richest families. And, as a mayor, Sanders made forays into foreign policy that included meetings with representatives of hostile nations, rebel groups and Canadian separatists.
Sanders argued the owners of commercial television stations sought to intentionally brainwash people into submission and helplessness through constant advertising interruptions and the well-tested Hitlerian principle that people should be treated as morons and bombarded over and over again with the same simple phrases and ideas. He said the television industry was designed to create a nation of morons who will faithfully go out and buy this or that product, vote for this or that candidate, and faithfully work for their employers for as low a wage as possible. Sanders suggested a public takeover of the airwaves could remedy the problem.
What Sanders Learned in Nicaragua
Sanders joined other dignitaries many from the Eastern Block countries in Europe and communist outposts such as Cuba, Laos and Vietnam in special seats near the podium where Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega spoke. Burlington's socialist mayor was the sole government official from the United States at the rally, according to Don Melvin, a Burlington Free Press reporter who covered the mayor's weeklong visit. Roughly 300 U.S. Sandinista sympathizers attended the event.
Plus, they paid for the trip for him.
Ya, that won't be an issue at all. Nope. Not at all. It's all good.
Sucks Bernie labeled himself a socialist. Democratic socialist, mind you, but still:/ ah well. Perhaps a similar candidate without the label will be feasible in 2024.
*edit* yeah, all that stuff in the articles above will likely bury him in a GE, especially against a more palatable Republican nominee.
*edit* yeah, all that stuff in the articles above will likely bury him in a GE, especially against a more palatable Republican nominee.
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