ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
What about when Hillary picks him as VP to be able to out-attractive Trump's running mate, Marco Rubio?
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PoliGAF 2015-2016 |OT3| If someone named PhoenixDark leaves your party, call the cops
- Thread starter Diablos
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What about when Hillary picks him as VP to be able to out-attractive Trump's running mate, Marco Rubio?
JesseEwiak
Member
Eh, if we're going to have an heir to David Broder as King of the Washington Press Corps, Ezra Klein is the best possible option.
As for Yglesias, it's really issue to issue with him. When it comes to monetary policy, he's awesome. When it comes to teacher unions or free trade, he's basically a Republican. But yeah, he's basically got a cushy job because he hopped on the train with Ezra nearly a decade ago and went to Harvard.
As somebody who used to quasi-regularly read Pandagon in the ancient days of 2004 and 2005, it's really weird.
Please... abuela no...
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Are Republicans more pro-free trade than Democrats? I don't think so.
Basileus777
Member
This shit is a death sentence in a Presidential election.
I didn't watch the whole debate tonight, but I thought this was O'Malley's best performance yet. He sometimes seemed slightly flat footed or like he was stuttering a bit to get into the groove of his rehearsed campaign speeches in past debates, but he seemed pretty on point the entire time I watched tonight, especially in contrast to the sometimes flustered and repetitive Bernie and Hillary. Too late for anyone to care though, I guess.
Hexa
Member
Holy crap. lol. There is no way in hell that this guy is going to be President. Hell, Trump probably has a better chance of getting elected. The US electorate would probably prefer a blatant racist over a blatant socialist.
For one moment, I read "300 Sandinista" as meaning 300 Sanders supporters :/
Why do you think the term Sandernista is so fitting?
One of the issues with being a real candidate is the scrutiny that comes with it :-/
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Ben Carson stole a lot of money this election season, but he also lost his reputation in the process.
WayneMorse
Banned
Yes and there was no way in hell that Donald Trump who once supported abortion, gay rights, single payer healthcare, gun control and Hillary Clinton would ever get anywhere in the Republican primary, right?
I really can't guess how a Bernie candidacy will be viewed by the national electorate, but it's worth taking the risk over Hillary who'll just be viewed as snake by everyone.
I really can't guess how a Bernie candidacy will be viewed by the national electorate, but it's worth taking the risk over Hillary who'll just be viewed as snake by everyone.
Jack Remington
Banned
I voted for Arnold in 2003 and again when he was up for reelection.
What?
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
The fuck are you high on?
I'm always fascinated by the cognitive dissonance that occurs by some Sander's supporter. Every thread we see the same - people talking about how Gaf is completely Hilaryland and how abusive Hilary supporters are.
Yet I've never seen a Hilary supporter drive by a thread and call him a monster, a republican, a traitor, an emotionless robot, a manipulative evil shrew, or any of the other insults we see slung about every thread. People seem to rush to tell us how much they *hate* Hilary, and yet it's Hilary supporters who are abusive.
It's as if Gaf was the only place where they encounter criticism of Bernie, and that takes them by surprise.
(I also love the attacks on Hilary in terms of her not being a democrat and ruining the party. From supporters of someone who literally isn't in the party, and who said we should primary a sitting Democratic president. Compared to someone who has spent he last 30+ years supporting and building up the party).
Yet I've never seen a Hilary supporter drive by a thread and call him a monster, a republican, a traitor, an emotionless robot, a manipulative evil shrew, or any of the other insults we see slung about every thread. People seem to rush to tell us how much they *hate* Hilary, and yet it's Hilary supporters who are abusive.
It's as if Gaf was the only place where they encounter criticism of Bernie, and that takes them by surprise.
(I also love the attacks on Hilary in terms of her not being a democrat and ruining the party. From supporters of someone who literally isn't in the party, and who said we should primary a sitting Democratic president. Compared to someone who has spent he last 30+ years supporting and building up the party).
The moment the gov adds an opt-in single-payer option (basically acts as an insurance company), the moment private insurance collapses - slowly but surely. It's just an amendment away in the ACA that adds it to the tax code.
Coriolanus
Banned
Whike i do understand your concern, it is overstated. Yall did, after all, vote for a black arab kenyan muslim that was friends with baby-eating terrorists and went to a cray cray priest's church. Twice.
Issue? Sure. Insurmountable? Eh.
Black Republican
Member
disastermouse
Banned
Me neither. But that doesn't mean I've always voted republican.
disastermouse
Banned
I don't think Hillary supporters are abusive. Despite the heavy Hillary tilt here, it's still relatively civil and coherent political discussion.
Manmademan
Member
not really. the kinds of people he's concerned about his reputation with are still very much in his corner. Despite the decline Carson still has about 10% of republicans backing him for president- this isn't that far off from Rubio. His overall favorability is still sky high at 60/25 or so, even if people don't think he's suited to be president. (Huckabee interestingly enough is ALSO right around there which explains why he's still in this as well)
He'll be selling more books and giving more paid speeches than he was before the run, which was the point of all this for him.
Just like his Democratic Socialism is going to kill him in any general election match up, so will these types of stories. It doesn't even matter if you feel these things aren't bad. Because to America it's never going to sell.
Hillary is not perfect either, but she has a real shot at winning and supreme court nominations are too important to risk such a candidate as Bernie. Just not worth it, no matter how much one prefers his policies (since not a single one of his policies had any chance of becoming law even if he was President anyway).
Nuu said:
Because unlike Obama, Bernie is repeatedly and unashamedly on record as being a Democratic Socialist, and so it's the type of thing that one can nail a candidate down on. Whereas with the attacks on Obama, they worked really well with the Republican base, but never seemed particularly plausible to Independents and Democrats (because of course Obama is not a socialist and is not on record as being one, whereas Bernie is).
Joe Shlabotnik
Banned
....and? Most of the American public already believes Obama is a Socialist whether or not he claims to be. Perception is matter much more than reality.
Manmademan
Member
Perception mattering more than reality only works as a saying when the reality actually isn't the same thing or "worse."
Bernie actually is a socialist. He has said, on record, on videotape that he is a socialist. The socialist attack proved to be unsuccessful against Obama ultimately because independents didn't buy it, and Democrats of course didn't care. Bernie is a socialist, so there's nothing for independents to buy or not. He IS a socialist, and most Americans hate socialism.
Critics of Obama have stopped using the socialist attack as frequently because it so unsuccessfully stuck to him. Critics of Bernie would have no such problem, because perception would equal reality in the case of his socialism.
Nazgul_Hunter
Member
Obama also made a series of speeches in 2008 that inoculated from a lot of those liabilities, at least with moderates. The Jeremiah Wright speech was particularly big for Obama. I haven't seen Bernie display the communication skills to talk himself out of the relentless attacks that would come from republicans in the general
disastermouse
Banned
Ignorance level +4,000! Sanders is not a socialist. He likes the term, and that's great, but he's not a socialist. He's a Social Democrat, a reformist capitalist.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Which would matter nothing in a general election, because people don't care to research a difference.
disastermouse
Banned
Holy shit...No. He says he's a Democratic Socialist, and he is a Social Democrat, but he's not working for the dictatorship of the proletariat so much as he's looking for relief and increased income for the consumer base so that Capitalism doesn't devour itself. He wants to trim down the contradictions of capitalism in order that Capitalism can actually function better than it does when left to its own devices.
I'm a socialist. I'm a Marxist. I want to see the economic system radically transformed. Sanders does not, not by any stretch of the imagination.
disastermouse
Banned
Right, and he gets an entire spotlight in the general to explain what the difference is - and he has models to point to that prove that his policies don't lead to the hellscape of post-Stalin Soviet Russia.
It doesn't matter even if you believe Bernie isn't a TRUE SOCIALIST™. He has admitted it on record, he has defined himself as a Democratic Socialist, and that's what voters are going to rely upon. Voters showed a troublesome enough understanding of socialism when the label was being cast upon Obama and his laughably un-socialist policies. You think they're going to further delve into the nuance of the term when they have a candidate that fully admits to being one? please.
Ogrekiller
Member
Except he doesn't. He has two weeks until Iowa and two months until super Tuesday, all the while dealing with attack ads and hit pieces.
Hillary started out with massive goodwill towards her too.
That would indeed make a winning ad for Bernie in the general.
"I'm Bernie Sanders. I am a Democratic Socialist, but I'm not working for the dictatorship of the proletariat so much as I'm looking for relief and increased income for the consumer base so that Capitalism doesn't devour itself. My policies won't lead to the hellscape of post-Stalin Soviet Russia."
He just has to explain it more and the American people will come to understand.
"I'm Bernie Sanders. I am a Democratic Socialist, but I'm not working for the dictatorship of the proletariat so much as I'm looking for relief and increased income for the consumer base so that Capitalism doesn't devour itself. My policies won't lead to the hellscape of post-Stalin Soviet Russia."
He just has to explain it more and the American people will come to understand.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
This is pretty much the case for Hilary on other issues. Hilary is good enough on issues that Bernie is further left on.
It's about both. There's a good number of perpetually undecided independents with the memories of gnats who you want to win. Certainly you'll need to win them to get control of Congress from the Republicans.
philosophically, i'm much aligned with bernie and his call for UHC, but just on a practical level, it's not going to happen for a very long time. and i'm really sympathetic to the notion that even attempting to marshal something resembling UHC through congress (in altenrate reallity world where dems again have supermajorites, and no other pressing domestic issues) could seriously imperil the ACA.
it's like finally getting the Mercedes benz you've been clamoring after for 60 years and then when getting it, saying eh, not good enough time for a Ferrari! if i'm on the other side, shit's not going to fly.
yes, the ACA has issues and certainly can be improved, as Hillary and bernie alluded to last night, but going from ACA to UHC isn't going to happen. the goal should be to work within the ACA to get to UHC, no matter how painstakingly slow and incremental it is.
it's like finally getting the Mercedes benz you've been clamoring after for 60 years and then when getting it, saying eh, not good enough time for a Ferrari! if i'm on the other side, shit's not going to fly.
yes, the ACA has issues and certainly can be improved, as Hillary and bernie alluded to last night, but going from ACA to UHC isn't going to happen. the goal should be to work within the ACA to get to UHC, no matter how painstakingly slow and incremental it is.
disastermouse
Banned
I welcome the conversation, and I think Sanders does as well - even though he doesn't come from the same perspective as I do.
At least Sanders is something and has been that something for a very long while. I can't imagine that people won't wonder how, if he is a socialist, he's managed to survive and thrive in American politics for so long.
Hillary is on, what, version 3.6 now? The positions keep changing, but the calculated character of them doesn't. It's the core of what she is. Hillary can't be nailed with being a long-time anything and Republicans will gleefully place Clinton vs. Clinton ads all over the collective media space throughout the general.
And with that, the Democrats will lose.
eBay Huckster
Member
please name a single major position that's actually changed since 2008, and the one where bernie was waffling about a lesser position two years beforehand doesn't count
Healthcare seems like more of a policy thing at this point than a politics thing. Hoping for better economic outcomes seems important to me, but politically it's not clear people that benefit from healthcare legislation via coverage (and not via cost) a) appreciate healthcare coverage b) see healthcare cost control explicitly and c) vote.
Hillary gets that I think.
Hillary gets that I think.
disastermouse
Banned
He's doing it better than I do, LOL. Nothing I say should ever end up in the greater conversation to the greater mass of voters. I was laying out a tactic, not a bumper stickerI'm sure he's got people who can help him do that much better than I have.
Don't you want to start with UHC from a negotiating perspective? Heck, Obama never even pushed super-hard for the public option.
If you look at Sanders' record, he's done a lot of pragmatic stuff as a Mayor, Representative, and Senator. I think painting him as only an idealist who doesn't understand how the system works is cutting him short.
disastermouse
Banned
Yes, Hillary's history only goes back to 2008. LMAO. "Only critique the newest version of Hillary-bot 2000. The '90s didn't exist. No one ever wore pleated khakis. Pants never had waists that sat right under the belly button."
Hillary has baggage from so far back and the Republicans can't wait to drag it all back up. I wouldn't be surprised if Monica Lewinsky made an appearance! I've already seen Linda Tripp in the news.
eBay Huckster
Member
That sure sounds like "I don't actually have any examples" to me.
(But please, do tell me that the GOP is going to successfully make a '90s attack stick to her when they can't even do it to Trump. Dude has literally flipped on everything from health care to taxes and their response has been a wet fart.)
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