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PoliGAF 2015-2016 |OT3| If someone named PhoenixDark leaves your party, call the cops

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Cheebo

Banned
Seriously if Cruz is the nominee that is fucking fantastic news. Trump is more entertaining but he is also seems to defy all odds and what should happen. Traditional tactics seem to bounce right off of him.

Cruz has the same batshit insane rules in the boring typical politician package.
 

Diablos

Member
This number is higher than I feared it would be, but lower than I hoped it would be.
It's split right down the middle, further showing how polarized our country is. If that trend keeps up I think the GOP will think twice about trying to oust Trump if he continues to stay in the lead.

His recent remarks about Hillary are just unacceptable. So what if she had to use the restroom? How is that disgusting? Unless I missed the part where they followed her into the restroom stall :p
 

Cheebo

Banned
Cruz as the nominee would fit in with the traditions of Goldwater vs. Johnson or Nixon vs. McGovern.

Two elections where the winner (Johnson & Nixon) are not the most likable and could be beaten by strong candidates in a different enviroment but the opposing parties went insular and picked believers that did not fit the nations views at the time and went down in a landslide.
 

Diablos

Member
Seriously if Cruz is the nominee that is fucking fantastic news. Trump is more entertaining but he is also seems to defy all odds and what should happen. Traditional tactics seem to bounce right off of him.

Cruz has the same batshit insane rules in the boring typical politician package.
Well, again, Trump's nomination and how successful it is depends on how the GOP reacts. Do they let him do his thing or do they go crazy, and demand another nominee?
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
I can't see any situation in which Cruz wins a general election unless we see some shenanigans. He doesn't appeal to women, he doesn't appeal to moderates, he doesn't appeal to minorities. He appeals to the far right and that's pretty much it.
 

HylianTom

Banned
This quote is an eyebrow-raiser. Add it to the pile of things that would come back if he somehow finagles nomination.

CW1o7cgWoAAVTze

It's from the Gawker article this morning detailing Rubio's circumstances.. Marco Rubio is Losing
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
This quote is an eyebrow-raiser. Add it to the pile of things that would come back if he somehow finagles nomination.



It's from the Gawker article this morning detailing Rubio's circumstances.. Marco Rubio is Losing

I really wish Cruz had said it. Everybody keeps talking about Rubio getting the nomination but he keeps dropping in polls.
 
This quote is an eyebrow-raiser. Add it to the pile of things that would come back if he somehow finagles nomination.



It's from the Gawker article this morning detailing Rubio's circumstances.. Marco Rubio is Losing

It’s commonplace (in the GOP, at least) to compare Marco Rubio, the young and charismatic one-term senator, with Barack Obama circa 2008, but Barack Obama’s revolutionary, Clinton-beating 2008 primary campaign was built around actual boots-on-the-ground organizing.

This amuses me. Turns out that being a "community organizer" is great experience for running a national campaign. Remember how much crap they gave Obama for that?
 
It's split right down the middle, further showing how polarized our country is. If that trend keeps up I think the GOP will think twice about trying to oust Trump if he continues to stay in the lead.

His recent remarks about Hillary are just unacceptable. So what if she had to use the restroom? How is that disgusting? Unless I missed the part where they followed her into the restroom stall :p

Trump in the general would be an endless series of HRC trolling him into making increasingly misogynistic statements. By election day Clinton would get 60% of white women voters, Dems win the House, nation-wide vote by mail is instituted, 1000 years of darkness begins.
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Trump in the general would be an endless series of HRC trolling him into making increasingly misogynistic statements. By election day Clinton would get 60% of white women voters, Dems win the House, nation-wide vote by mail is instituted, 1000 years of darkness begins.

I still think he'd draw more votes than Cruz.
 
I think Hillary played one of those 11th dimensional chess moves by baiting Trump into a feud with her. Her line about Trump being an ISIS recruiter was carefully planned to lure Trump into a high-profile media brawl with her that will probably dominate for rest of December and during Christmas, thereby underscoring the point that he is indeed the GOP's presumptive nominee while drowning out voices from Rubio and Cruz. It was carefully selected wording. That's all people are going to be talking about. Of course it also has the added effect of more Republicans coalescing around their man.
Clinton trolls him with a policy statement, Trump goes vulgar. ABC News minces no words: Trump makes sexually derogatory remark about Hillary Clinton

GOP is going to have fun reading headlines like that for the next eleven months.
 
LOL establishment. They can't even correctly unite behind a candidate.

By the way: am I the only one who thinks Trump is exponentially more electable than Cruz?

I can see a path where Trump could win by getting out millions of resentful white working class voters along with some sort of Black Swan event where a Hispanic Muslim refugee who snuck through the border shoots Larry the Cable Guy or some other insane scenario.

Short of an '08 economic collapse, Ted Cruz is such an unpersonable asshole (unlike Trump - put it this way, even with everything Trump has said, I'd still rather be stuck at a dinner party with him than Cruz), along with the fact that Cruz is actually far more conservative than Trump, that the guy has literally no chance of getting 270 electoral votes.

In other words, while Cruz would likely keep Hillary to a slightly bigger win than Obama, Trump's percentage could oscillate between an insane Goldwater style rout to a 1% chance of a Black Swan event causing a win for Trump. Even in the Black Swan scenario, I think Cruz fucks it up with his rhetoric and personality. Basically, what if Barack Obama started talking like conservatives think Barack Obama talk in private after the Lehman Brothers collapse.
 
I still think he'd draw more votes than Cruz.

I think Trump has a higher ceiling than Cruz but a much lower floor. There's a real chance that two months before the election working class whites realize the guy is crazy and he collapses.

Edit: LOL, Jesse just said the same thing with much more detail.
 
Clinton trolls him with a policy statement, Trump goes vulgar. ABC News minces no words: Trump makes sexually derogatory remark about Hillary Clinton

GOP is going to have fun reading headlines like that for the next eleven months.
Hillary is brilliant, she singled out Trump during the last Dem debate hoping that the Donald would bite the bait.... and he did.

Donald is unable to resist to reply back when an opponent comments on him


Hillary is poking him trying to get him to say something inapropriate that can and may be used against him later on when required
 

Teggy

Member
The schlonged thing is pretty stupid - the sentence doesn't even make sense. Saying that she was disgusting for going to the bathroom is the one I thought was worse.
 
The schlonged thing is pretty stupid - the sentence doesn't even make sense. Saying that she was disgusting for going to the bathroom is the one I thought was worse.
Yeah wtf. Is Trump saying he never goes to bathroom? That's the most wtf line of attack I ever heard.
 

NeoXChaos

Member
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/01/why-america-is-moving-left/419112/

Would Rubio be a more conservative president than Obama? Of course. An era of liberal dominance doesn’t mean that the ideological differences between Democrats and Republicans disappear. It means that on the ideological playing field, the 50-yard line shifts further left. It means the next Republican president won’t be able to return the nation to the pre-Obama era.

That’s what happened when Dwight Eisenhower followed Franklin D. Roosevelt and Harry Truman. Ike moderated the growth in government expansion that had begun in the 1930s, but he didn’t return American politics to the 1920s, when the GOP opposed any federal welfare state at all. He in essence ratified the New Deal. It’s also what happened when Bill Clinton followed Ronald Reagan and George H. W. Bush. By passing punitive anticrime laws, repealing restrictions on banks, signing NAFTA, cutting government spending to balance the budget, reforming welfare, and declaring that the “era of big government is over,” Clinton acknowledged that even a Democratic president could not revive the full-throated liberalism of the 1960s and ’70s. He ratified Reaganism.

Barack Obama sought the presidency hoping to be the Democrats’ Reagan: a president who changed America’s ideological trajectory. And he has changed it. He has pushed the political agenda as dramatically to the left as Reagan pushed it to the right, and, as under Reagan, the public has acquiesced more than it has rebelled. Reagan’s final victory came when Democrats adapted to the new political world he had made, and there is reason to believe that the next Republican president will find it necessary to make similar concessions to political reality.

This political cycle, too, will ultimately run its course. A sustained rise in crime could breed fissures between African American activists and young whites or even Latinos. Slower economic growth and a rising budget deficit could turn the public against government in a way that Obama’s policies have not—and force Democrats to again emphasize the creation of wealth more than its distribution. How this era of liberal dominance will end is anyone’s guess. But it will likely endure for some time to come.
.
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
Rubio is still the leading establishment candidate, which is all he needs to be. You'll see.

Bush is legit such a fucking flop.
 
Cruz as the nominee would fit in with the traditions of Goldwater vs. Johnson or Nixon vs. McGovern.

Two elections where the winner (Johnson & Nixon) are not the most likable and could be beaten by strong candidates in a different enviroment but the opposing parties went insular and picked believers that did not fit the nations views at the time and went down in a landslide.

Haha I always make the 1964 comparison when discussing this stuff with my mom (who is a major Obama fangirl). Cruz would certainly rally parts of the base that Romney/McCain missed but it won't make up for major losses amongst independents. And like Goldwater I firmly believe he'll run an uncompromising campaign. There will be no shift to the middle (or even center right) for the general.

Now from Cruz's perspective he'll point to 1980 in terms of the "radical" conservative (allegedly) being down big in the polls only to spark a revolution on the ground and win big. Foolish of course but it'll be how he dismisses polls that show him down.

BTW did you like Star Wars? I might see it this weekend. Ran into one spoiler last week, which ironically is one I had read months ago while casually reading some alleged script leaks. I guess it was legit lol.
 
I think Cruz is slick enough to get away with moderating his policy stances, especially with regards to immigration. He's also smart enough to know that he has to do a 180 to appeal to Latino voters in order to win. I wouldn't underestimate him, he's going to give Hillary a fight if he's nominated.
 

Cheebo

Banned
Haha I always make the 1964 comparison when discussing this stuff with my mom (who is a major Obama fangirl). Cruz would certainly rally parts of the base that Romney/McCain missed but it won't make up for major losses amongst independents. And like Goldwater I firmly believe he'll run an uncompromising campaign. There will be no shift to the middle (or even center right) for the general.

Now from Cruz's perspective he'll point to 1980 in terms of the "radical" conservative (allegedly) being down big in the polls only to spark a revolution on the ground and win big. Foolish of course but it'll be how he dismisses polls that show him down.

BTW did you like Star Wars? I might see it this weekend. Ran into one spoiler last week, which ironically is one I had read months ago while casually reading some alleged script leaks. I guess it was legit lol.

Yep. He'll push 1980 but the situation isn't comparable. Hillary is no Carter. Carter was a badly damaged candidate coming out of the primary, and I love Jimmy but he was a TERRIBLE politician. He didn't have the killer instinct to win. He lucked into winning 1976 thanks to Ford being a equally awful candidate who had Nixon stink all over him.

And yes go see it sir, Ford gave his first performance where he wasn't sleep walking in like 20 years.

I think Cruz is slick enough to get away with moderating his policy stances, especially with regards to immigration. He's also smart enough to know that he has to do a 180 to appeal to Latino voters in order to win. I wouldn't underestimate him, he's going to give Hillary a fight if he's nominated.

Cruz is a 100% true believer. He won't moderate his views because he believes he doesn't need to. He isn't a pragmatic candidate at all. He is Goldwater 2.0.
 

Holmes

Member
Quinnipiac has always been a bad pollster for Trump - he actually gained a percentage from their last poll, fwiw - but the Cruz trendline is real. Trump had better hope that Cruz doesn't come in second place in New Hampshire, but this might go all the way to June, in which case my mother-in-law's strategy of voting for Trump in California might actually happen.
 

Cheebo

Banned
Quinnipiac has always been a bad pollster for Trump - he actually gained a percentage from their last poll, fwiw - but the Cruz trendline is real. Trump had better hope that Cruz doesn't come in second place in New Hampshire, but this might go all the way to June, in which case my mother-in-law's strategy of voting for Trump in California might actually happen.
If Trump loses NH it will end quick. If we have a situation like

Iowa: Cruz
New Hampshire: Non-Trump candidate such as Christie
South Carolina: Cruz

Then it's all over. Trump's whole image is built around winning. If he comes out of the first round without a win he will collapse.
 
I think Cruz is slick enough to get away with moderating his policy stances, especially with regards to immigration. He's also smart enough to know that he has to do a 180 to appeal to Latino voters in order to win. I wouldn't underestimate him, he's going to give Hillary a fight if he's nominated.

Not seeing it. Cruz is a true believer, he's not simply an opportunist like Rubio and some of the other polished (current and former) tea party stars. I don't think he buys the Latino argument. If anything he'll offer a detailed, non-amnesty immigration plan while (accurately) arguing he is the only candidate who can guarantee immigration reform passes. I'm imagining a package similar to what he has proposed but with some type of guest worker type program concession. He's not going to offer any type of amnesty.

Cruz's plan will be to win 30-40% of Hispanics, and greatly increase white turnout.
 
Not seeing it. Cruz is a true believer, he's not simply an opportunist like Rubio and some of the other polished (current and former) tea party stars. I don't think he buys the Latino argument. If anything he'll offer a detailed, non-amnesty immigration plan while (accurately) arguing he is the only candidate who can guarantee immigration reform passes. I'm imagining a package similar to what he has proposed but with some type of guest worker type program concession. He's not going to offer any type of amnesty.

Cruz's plan will be to win 30-40% of Hispanics, and greatly increase white turnout.

Why do you think he's a true believer? Everything he does is calculated.
 
If all the establishment drop out, and assuming they all go to one candidate and not lose some support to Trump, you get:

Trump 28%
Cruz 24%
Rubio 24%
Carson 10%
Fiorina 2%
Paul 2%

And this is Trump's worst poll. So I don't get how some people are clinging to this myth that if only more candidates dropped out and rallied around one establishment candidate he would win.
 

Holmes

Member
If Trump loses NH it will end quick. If we have a situation like

Iowa: Cruz
New Hampshire: Non-Trump candidate such as Christie
South Carolina: Cruz

Then it's all over. Trump's whole image is built around winning. If he comes out of the first round without a win he will collapse.
Yeah, if Trump doesn't win NH, it's over, but he should win the state. March 1st will be a tough Trump/Cruz battle because it's predominantly Southern states, but if Trump can survive, he's better positioned to do good in the rest of the states.
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
I don't think you're giving trump enough credit for South Carolina. Cruz would really need to swing up to displace trump.
 
Why do you think he's a true believer? Everything he does is calculated.

I agree he is very duplicitous but here's the thing: everything in his background suggests he is truly a right wing radical. He was raised by an Evangelical father who holds apocalyptic views about America. In college he was an asshole, conservative, and loved showing off intellectually. He worked for one of the most conservative Supreme Court justices. The list goes on and on. Whoever said Cruz was born to win Iowa was right. He's the conservative many Evangelicals have been waiting on for years.

Does he know his arguments about climate change are bullshit? Maybe, or maybe he doesn't care, or maybe he's paid not to care. But on other issues like health care, immigration, etc I think his views are firm. When it comes to more procedural behavior in congress...sure, I think a lot of that stuff is calculated.
 

NeoXChaos

Member
Yeah, if Trump doesn't win NH, it's over, but he should win the state. March 1st will be a tough Trump/Cruz battle because it's predominantly Southern states, but if Trump can survive, he's better positioned to do good in the rest of the states.

I just did a scenario on realclearpolitics where Trump-Cruz split the first 4 states and the south. Rubio in 3rd until he wins FL. Rubio has no path in such a scenario

I split every state assuming its a 3-way after nevada up until March 15th:

Trump 37
Cruz 34
Rubio 29

Then I split it 50-25-25 in favor of a magical rubio comeback on March 15th in FL and the midwest. Gave Trump most of the NE including NY. I went out west and split Rubio/Trump wins in WA, CA and OR. I split the plains between them too.

I got

Rubio 929
Trump 717
Cruz 633
 
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