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PoliGAF 2016 |OT11| Well this is exciting

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Honestly this may be wrong, but I don't think that courting republicans is necessarily a bad idea. The problem I see is that the Clinton campaign never really tried to hang Trump onto the republicans that were already supporting Trump. I think the campaign initially made the assessment that the DNC had fired up the democratic base for at least a little while. The weird scheduling of the Olympics also threw everything off.

Edit: Probably the same as Anihawk with Reagan and harding switched. I guess in terms of lasting impact currently Regan and W would be at the bottom.
 

Bowdz

Member
List of Republican presidents since 1912:

Warren G. Harding
Calvin Coolidge
Herbert Hoover
Dwight Eisenhower
Richard Nixon
Gerald Ford
Ronald Reagan
HW Bush
George W Bush

Rank them.

Meanwhile, on the other side of the aisle, Democratic Presidents post 1912:

Woodrow Wilson
Franklin D. Roosevelt
Harry Truman
John Kennedy
Lyndon Johnson
Jimmy Carter
Bill Clinton
Barack Obama
 
Meanwhile, on the other side of the aisle, Democratic Presidents post 1912:

Woodrow Wilson
Franklin D. Roosevelt
Harry Truman
John Kennedy
Lyndon Johnson
Jimmy Carter
Bill Clinton
Barack Obama

FDR
LBJ
Obama
Truman
Bill
JFK
Carter
Wilson

But this is a stupid exercise whereas "rank the Republican presidents" was just to demonstrate how bad non-Eisenhower Republican presidents have been for the last century.
 

Diablos

Member
Too tired to do a complete ranking but Eisenhower and FDR are GOAT.

FDR tha god

The fact that we can never have a Pres like him again shows how badly we've lost the plot politically
 

Hopfrog

Member
Damn, y'all soft on Nixon. I know he appeals to liberals because some of his domestic stances deviated from the right-ward trend of the party, but are you forgetting that he was an actual bonafide paranoid crook who would have been the first president removed from office had he not resigned?

To me that instantly relegates him to the bottom half.

And what are the criteria here? Whether we like them, or whether they were successful presidents?
 
It pains me to think what LBJ's presidency could have been without Vietnam.

Damn, y'all soft on Nixon. I know he appeals to liberals because some of his domestic stances deviated from the right-ward trend of the party, but are you forgetting that he was an actual bonafide paranoid crook who would have been the first president removed from office had he not resigned?

To me that instantly relegates him to the bottom half.

And what are the criteria here? Whether we like them, or whether they were successful presidents?

It's really hard to put most of the other GOP presidents above him considering what we now know about most of them. Speaking of which, it really is amazing how quickly people forgot what the W years were actually like.
 
Truman dropped the atom bomb...I don't know if I'd rank him high.

He's the hardest one since he did a lot of great things, but then there's the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians.

He really should have bombed harbors that were abandoned of people to show that this weapon was unstoppable without massacring so many people.

... I mean, this is problem a dumb exercise on my part (with ranking Dem presidents).

And what are the criteria here? Whether we like them, or whether they were successful presidents?

It's just a game to show how bad (in the view of liberals) Republican presidencies have been in the last century.
 
Damn, y'all soft on Nixon. I know he appeals to liberals because some of his domestic stances deviated from the right-ward trend of the party, but are you forgetting that he was an actual bonafide paranoid crook who would have been the first president removed from office had he not resigned?

To me that instantly relegates him to the bottom half.

And what are the criteria here? Whether we like them, or whether they were successful presidents?
Nixon just got caught. Reagan and Dubya did plenty of shady shit that should have gotten the both of them impeached.
 

Joeytj

Banned
This is certainly a take.

Yes. My fucking salary is worth a lot less because of the last few weeks. Not blaming Hillary, but our peso is being pummeled by investors unnecessarily, fearing a Trump presidency. Mexican media is now saying that "when Hillary coughs, the peso gets turbeculosis"
 
Avatar quote or whatever but I don't think we get to worship at FDR's feet and then condemn Truman for using the atomic bombs. Firebombing of Japan and Germany was also incredibly terrible for human life and they're murky decisions in terrible situations that I don't think you can just say were explicitly good or bad.
 
And Nixon over Coolidge in every list.

What did Silent Cal ever do to you?

Coolidge did one thing (banning immigration to the United States) before being incapacitated by his depression (caused by his son dying).

Nixon did things. The Clean Air Act and EPA, the attempt to subvert democracy, the opening to China, the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of Cambodians.
 

Hopfrog

Member
Coolidge did one thing (banning immigration to the United States) before being incapacitated by his depression (caused by his son dying).

Nixon did things. The Clean Air Act and EPA, the attempt to subvert democracy, the opening to China, the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of Cambodians.

He only remembered the first part of Teddy's aphorism.
 
@SethAbramovitch
A rep for @Skittles gives me their response to @DonaldJTrumpJr

CsxWU5AXgAEF_B6.jpg
 
l'll link to a post I wrote in the previous OT. Basically, almost all of Hillary's national messaging has been aimed at #NeverTrump Republicans since the primaries ended.

In addition, Tim Kaine has been doing the white working class circuit since the convention ended, and as of today has not given a SINGLE Spanish interview despite that being one of his main appeals as a VP choice. And oh, come to find out the latino vote as it looks right now might not be enough to guarantee us Florida.

And let me ask a question: until today, how much specific attention has Hillary paid to millennials? To minorities?

But we sure do know a lot about what Republicans think of Trump.

You are right, the Obama coalition needs their red meat or they may disengage. Hillary might be making a long term play to widen the margin with moderate conservative types but I think that's fools gold.
 

kess

Member
Most of the good domestic programs that are associated with the Nixon administration today were nearly all products of a Democratic Congress. Fucking Nixon vetoed the Clean Water Act and killed universal child care.
 

Debirudog

Member
Most of the good domestic programs that are associated with the Nixon administration today were nearly all products of a Democratic Congress. Fucking Nixon vetoed the Clean Water Act and killed universal child care.
That's pure evil right there.
 

NeoXChaos

Member
http://steveschale.squarespace.com/blog/2016/9/19/florida-is-gonna-florida-2016-version.html

really good FL article

Regional Performance is Relatively Stable

So the consensus is Florida is always changing. Well it is, but even so, the “states” of Florida perform very consistently.

For the sake of space, let’s look at Florida in three regions. I-10 (5 North Florida markets), I-4 and SW Florida (Orlando, Tampa, and Ft Myers), and SE Florida (Miami and West Palm).

If you compare 2000 and 2012, despite the massive changes in the electorate, the vote share in these regions is absurdly similar.

In North Florida, both Gore and Obama 2012 received 40.4% of the 2-way vote. On our best day, in 2008, we got to 42. On our worst, 2004, we got 38.5%. Hillary Clinton will almost certainly win between 38-40%.

Along the I-4 corridor – adding Fort Myers, Gore won 47.4%, and Obama 12 won 48%. Our best day got to 49.6%, and our worst, 44.8%.

And in SE Florida, same story: Gore was 59.8%, while Obama 12 was 60.8%. In 08, we were 60.5%, and in 2004, we dropped to 57.7%.

In other words, even as the state margin ranged from Obama +3 in 2008 to Bush +5 in 2004, there just was very small movement within regions.

Let’s project forward to 2016. If you assume HRC gets the best share in each “region” of the state, her upper end is 51.6%, her lower end is 47.5%. In other words, forget what the polls say, based on the history of the last four elections, we are talking about a state that might have, tops, 5-6% of real swing vote.

And note- I understand that this is more than a 2-way race, but it doesn't change the conclusion - Florida is close.

But Steve, Hispanics…

Those of you all who know me understand my affection for people who live in the 202 or 212 area code lecturing us about our state. Just last week, during a trip to DC, one of the smart ones tried to tell me that she should win here by 6-8 points, because, you know, Hispanics.

Demographics are big, and they are Clinton’s edge, just as they were the driving factor in Obama’s 2012 win. But when I mean big - it means the demographics are a huge advantage to my team this year and going forward, not that she’s going to win Florida by six or that we are on the verge of being a perpetual blue state.

If you take the exit polls as truth, Obama won 61% of the Hispanic vote in 2012, after winning 57% in 2008. Keeping in mind that in terms of nation of origin, Florida’s Hispanics look nothing like Colorado, Nevada or New Mexico’s Hispanics, let’s say she just crushes it – wins 70%. Given the higher floor among Hispanics in Florida due to the large Cuban Republican population, it is hard to imagine her above +40 among these voters. And again, +40 would be Historic, given that in 2004, exit polls said Bush won Hispanics by 12 over Kerry!

Let’s start at scratch. We won by .9%. So let’s say she wins the same share of white, and black (African American and Caribbean) voters – and the latter turn out at their 2012 share, but wins Hispanics by 40 points, instead of 22- she’d win by 4-5 points. The only way it becomes a blowout is if Clinton can really take back ground with whites, but so far, there’s been no evidence of it happening.

But what if she gets the same share of the white vote as Crist, 36% - so instead of losing whites by 24 (Obama), she loses them by 26? Her lead slips to 3. And if that number drops to 35, so we are talking about 28-point Trump win among whites? Her lead goes to 1.

In other words, you can see how capitalizing on Hispanics moves the needle for her, but in no way does it move the state into some kind of slam dunk, or safe seat kind of place.


---

I do believe Clinton has a narrow edge for two reasons

Demographics: The state is getting more diverse, and while that doesn’t guarantee her a win, it does give her a cushion. Based on growth alone, Obama’s 0.9% win in 2012 is probably worth closer to 1.2-1.5% in 2016, simply based on demographic trends. She has a cushion to bleed a little among whites, and still win.

Organization. This is where the Clinton operation will reap its investment. By registering voters, and turning out more of the lower propensity Black and Hispanic voters, her campaign can capitalize on the demographic advantages. Organizations are like kickers in football – they aren’t vital in blowouts, but you better have a good one in a close game, and they are building an organization designed to win a close election.
 

Valhelm

contribute something
Meanwhile, on the other side of the aisle, Democratic Presidents post 1912:

Woodrow Wilson
Franklin D. Roosevelt
Harry Truman
John Kennedy
Lyndon Johnson
Jimmy Carter
Bill Clinton
Barack Obama

FDR
LBJ
Carter
Obama
Clinton
JFK
Truman
Wilson
 

Valhelm

contribute something
carter over obama?

I think Obama's good, but Carter fundamentally changed American foreign policy. Recognizing the leftist government in Nicaragua was a huge step forward, along with allowing returning the Panama Canal to Panama. His treatment toward dissidents in America was also pretty radically different from the administrations before him. The previous elected Democrat tried to invade Cuba, after all.

Carter's legacy would be largely undone by Reagan, but I'm not sure what he could have done to prevent that regression. Despite being played a tough hand, he responded pretty well to the various challenges America dealt with in the late 70s.

Carter's biggest mistake, IMO, was responding so aggressively to the Soviet Union after the invasion of Afghanistan. Ending the Cold War was more important than sending a message.
 

sazzy

Member
Apologies for bringing in an entirely different topic, but was hoping people here had some answers or insight:

I was thinking about the gun violence issue, and I was wondering, has anyone tried restricting bullets/ammunition for guns at all? Have any courts ruled on whether the right to bear arms applies to ammunition?

What if gun control measures like background checks, waiting periods, training etc applied to purchasing ammunition instead?
 

Bronx-Man

Banned
Too tired to do a complete ranking but Eisenhower and FDR are GOAT.

FDR tha god

The fact that we can never have a Pres like him again shows how badly we've lost the plot politically

FDR would be my pick, but internment creates a big hit for him in my eyes. So I guess JFK gets the top spot then.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Did the news cycle pick up the Skittle thing? Think it will be on in the morning? They deserve to get utterly crucified over hot coals for it
 

sazzy

Member
Did the news cycle pick up the Skittle thing? Think it will be on in the morning? They deserve to get utterly crucified over hot coals for it

I think it definitly will get air time, especially since it wasn't just a retweet, but had the official campaign logo on the pic.

This tweet, and Trump's comments lamenting about the NY bomber getting medical care and legal representation, are both disgusting.
 

Valhelm

contribute something
Apologies for bringing in an entirely different topic, but was hoping people here had some answers or insight:

I was thinking about the gun violence issue, and I was wondering, has anyone tried restricting bullets/ammunition for guns at all? Have any courts ruled on whether the right to bear arms applies to ammunition?

What if gun control measures like background checks, waiting periods, training etc applied to purchasing ammunition instead?

That's basically how Israel does it.

The problem is that sportsmen like having lots of ammunition.
 
Carter was dealt two Aces in Texas Hold 'Em and ended up folding.

Carter had one of the three Super Majorities (due to Watergate) in recent history and accomplished almost nothing. His presidency was a failure relative to what he could have done.
 
I thought the main foreign policy situation for which Carter is remembered is the 400 odd days hostage crisis.

He's had the most esteemed post presidency.
 
GOP -

1. Bush I - (As good as a Republican you could get in 1992. Likely personally pro-choice (c'mon, you don't nominate Souter without asking him about abortion in 1992, raised taxes, passed the ADA, didn't overreact to the end of the Cold War.
2. Hoover - (Actually tried stimulus when the Depression happened, but was hampered by a GOP Congress).
3. Eisenhower - (Yes, he didn't try to overturn the New Deal and accidentally put in some decent Justices. He also had Operation Wetback and basically tried to avoid the whole McCarthy thing as long as possible while bringing Nixon up to the reigns of power)
4. Gerald Ford - (Did nothing too terrible in his two years)
5. Nixon - (Didn't give a shit about domestic policy, but did move the Overton Window to the right by talking about law 'n' order and such during his campaigns.)
6. Harding - (Massively corrupt.)
7. Dubya - (Relatively decent to Muslims, cared about immigration, helped people in Africa - terrible about everything else).
8. Reagan - (Legitimately wanted to end nuke proliferation. Liked immigrants. Not a truly terrible human being like Thatcher. That's about it. Oh, absolutely nominated some moderate Justice's)
9. Coolidge - (Did nothing in office and signed the Immigration Act current day racists love! Oh, also made current day Republican's look like socialists when it comes to running the government for big business).

DNC -

FDR - On the one hand, internment and fucking over black people to get Southern support. OTOH, everything else he did including knowing Hitler was a SOB from the ground up.

LBJ - In a just word, "Johnson passing the Civil Rights bill" would be the nomenclature for somebody making a policy in opposition to what you'd think instead of "Nixon going to China." Solidified the American welfare state. Vietnam was a disaster, but any President elected in 1964 was going to bomb Vietnam.

Obama - Began the work of finishing the American welfare state. A reasonably sane foreign policy. Gay marriage. Two SC Justice's that will move us to the left. All the little stuff on a Cabinet level we forget about.

Carter - Points off for completing f'ing up his relationship with Congress. Probably the only non-sociopath to be POTUS in decades. Did what he could as things went south.

Truman - Desegregated the military, defended the New Deal, tried to kill Taft Hartley. Got fucked over by Korea and 'losing China.'

Clinton - Governed more to the right than he should've in response to losing in '94. We're still a little screwed over from welfare reform. Couldn't keep it in his pants. Two solid liberal Justice's. Saved the 2012 campaign.

JFK - Almost got us into a nuclear war. Fucked Marilyn Monroe. Getting killed got Civil Rights and Medicare passed. Teddy accomplished so much more, it's not even funny.

Wilson - An actual racist who helped screw over Germany in the aftermath of World War I because he was such an idealist - at least he realized the Executive & Legislative Branches being apart was a set up for failure in the long run.
 

sazzy

Member
Don Lemon's CNN show is so pathetic.

90% of the time, its the cable news equivalent of a YouTube reaction video, where he shows a shitty clip and asks everyone, "What's your reaction?"
 
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