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PoliGAF 2016 |OT16| Unpresidented

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Barzul

Member
this is very wrong, and the time magazine article does a good job explaining why: http://time.com/time-person-of-the-year-2016-donald-trump/?iid=buttonrecirc

There was this golden line by one of the Trump voters.

Shannon Goodin, 24, Owosso, Mich. Trump earned the support of Goodin, a first-time voter, by being "a big poster child for change," she says, adding, "Politicians don't appeal to us. Clinton would go out of her way to appeal to minorities, immigrants, but she didn't really for everyday Americans."

Basically only white people can be "everyday" Americans.
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
I'll never understand how people in here can willingly ignore the fact that multiple factors were responsible for Hillary's loss.

It wasn't just: Hillary was a flawed candidate/Comey/emails/Benghazi/terrible media/racism/sexism/BernieBros/Mook/etc.

It was ALL of these.

Democrats need to focus on how to eliminate and/or overcome these factors in their next candidates. That's why the whole "Let's ban primary talks!!!!" stuff screams of "I don't want to honestly look at what we need to do to fix the problem."
 
I'll never understand how people in here can willingly ignore the fact that multiple factors were responsible for Hillary's loss.

It wasn't just: Hillary was a flawed candidate/Comey/emails/Benghazi/terrible media/racism/sexism/BernieBros/Mook/etc.

It was ALL of these.

Democrats need to focus on how to eliminate and/or overcome these factors in their next candidates. That's why the whole "Let's ban primary talks!!!!" stuff screams of "I don't want to honestly look at what we need to do to fix the problem."

You can easily blame all of this on Clinton's horrible campaign, complete inability to deal with any scandal, and lack of any self awareness. The DNC gave her the nomination and not only blew the presidential election but gave a racist lunatic the house, senate and supreme court. This is 100% Clinton/DNC.
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Washinton Post said:
“We’re not going to do a replacement,” Schumer said of the Senate Democratic caucus. “If they repeal without a replacement, they will own it. Democrats will not then step up to the plate and come up with a half-baked solution that we will partially own. It’s all theirs.”

God bless Chuck Schumer.
 
You can easily blame all of this on Clinton's horrible campaign, complete inability to deal with any scandal, and lack of any self awareness. The DNC gave her the nomination and not only blew the presidential election but gave a racist lunatic the house, senate and supreme court. This is 100% Clinton/DNC.
The voters gave her the nomination, not the DNC

There was a big long primary process.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
God bless Chuck Schumer.

I say this as someone who has benefited immensely from the ACA: if the GOP wants to run off the cliff then we should let them. Schumer is right. Let them own that shit.

I mean, we should absolutely try and stop them at every turn, but there's no reason for us to give them a parachute at the end of the process.
 
I say this as someone who has benefited immensely from the ACA: if the GOP wants to run off the cliff then we should let them. Schumer is right. Let them own that shit.

I mean, we should absolutely try and stop them at every turn, but there's no reason for us to give them a parachute.

They're like a dog chasing a car. If they actually got a full Obamacare repeal they wouldn't even know what to do with themselves.
 

Holmes

Member
It was actually a short primary. 4 months and some. It would've been over in one if Sanders had the sense to drop out when there was no path left for him, but it was still short. I think what you're more frustrated at is the perpetual campaign seasons in the US.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
There was this golden line by one of the Trump voters.



Basically only white people can be "everyday" Americans.

Perfect example of the Diet Racism Clinton had to deal with and the problem with Dems shifting towards trying to appeal to the WWC. You have to ignore minorities with your messaging, or you get people like that...
 
It was actually a short primary. 4 months and some. It would've been over in one if Sanders had the sense to drop out when there was no path left for him, but it was still short. I think what you're more frustrated at is the perpetual campaign seasons in the US.

I think they should make January 1st the official start date of campaign season. Having it be a 16 month slog is not a good time.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
I think they should make January 1st the official start date of campaign season. Having it be a 16 month slog is not a good time.

Part of the issue is that the campaigning starts way earlier than is even reported by the news. Like if you want to run then you need to start making your moves at least two years before the first vote. As more and more candidates realize this the coverage will start earlier and earlier.
 

Pixieking

Banned
I'll never understand how people in here can willingly ignore the fact that multiple factors were responsible for Hillary's loss.

It wasn't just: Hillary was a flawed candidate/Comey/emails/Benghazi/terrible media/racism/sexism/BernieBros/Mook/etc.

It was ALL of these.

Democrats need to focus on how to eliminate and/or overcome these factors in their next candidates. That's why the whole "Let's ban primary talks!!!!" stuff screams of "I don't want to honestly look at what we need to do to fix the problem."

Well, there's a difference between "Let's talk about how Bernie not-winning the Primary meant he would've won the GE by being The Bestest!" and "Let's actually talk about how perception, media, FBI, cock-ups by people inside and outside the campaign, and arrogance of Hillary and Mook(?) screwed everything up."

The problem is, people focus too much on the former, and not on a clear step-by-step analysis of the latter.

And then there's the fact that it was just a perfect storm of all these things that failed to bring her the election - remove any one of "Hillary was a flawed candidate/Comey/emails/Benghazi/terrible media/racism/sexism/BernieBros/Mook/" and chances are good she'd have won. So, whilst knowing about all these pitfalls is good for the future, if anyone actually expects the DNC to nominate someone who has this many failings/possible failings in the future, they're mad. :)

You can easily blame all of this on Clinton's horrible campaign, complete inability to deal with any scandal, and lack of any self awareness. The DNC gave her the nomination and not only blew the presidential election but gave a racist lunatic the house, senate and supreme court. This is 100% Clinton/DNC.

As I've said before, whilst it definitely is the campaign and DNC's fault, I genuinely don't believe they thought so many Americans would vote for a

Racist
Bigoted
Sexually assaulting
Ignorant
Egotistical
Fat-shaming
Adulterer
Who raped his first wife
And didn't pay his contractors.

Because I keep on seeing people saying "America didn't vote for Trump", but y'know what? Over 60 million people did vote for Trump. And that is not something Hillary herself, or her campaign, expected.
 

royalan

Member
You can easily blame all of this on Clinton's horrible campaign, complete inability to deal with any scandal, and lack of any self awareness. The DNC gave her the nomination and not only blew the presidential election but gave a racist lunatic the house, senate and supreme court. This is 100% Clinton/DNC.

"Fuck minorities."

No, seriously, that's what you're really saying when you continue to push this lie that, despite having a margin of over 4 million votes, largely due to overwhelming support from minority communities, that the DNC "gave" the nomination to Hillary.

"Fuck minorities."

We're in Trump's America now, and it's time for everyone to own their shit.
 
Part of the issue is that the campaigning starts way earlier than is even reported by the news. Like if you want to run then you need to start making your moves at least two years before the first vote. As more and more candidates realize this the coverage will start earlier and earlier.

Yup. We should have a solid picture on who is running right after the midterms. That's literally only two years from now, which is crazy when you think about it.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Yup. We should have a solid picture on who is running right after the midterms. That's literally only two years from now, which is crazy when you think about it.

At this point we can point to a bunch of people who will likely be considering a run, but yea we'll know more in two years.
 

pigeon

Banned
On a totally unrelated note...

vox said:
One of the fundamental challenges for liberals, in the Trump regime, will be trying to hold on to their basic commitments to equality and inclusion, while facing the pressure to jettison some of those commitments when it would seem to be politically disadvantageous to be too liberal.

As early as the 19th century, John Stuart Mill, whose work deeply influenced our ideas of liberalism, recognized that increased economic equality had not been accompanied by equality in terms of either gender or race. He was fully committed to widening the scope of equality in those realms, writing, along with his wife Harriet Taylor Mill, “The Subjection of Women”: “[T]he legal subordination of one sex to another — is wrong in itself, and now one of the chief hindrances to human improvement; and that it ought to be replaced by a system of perfect equality, admitting no power and privilege on the one side, nor disability on the other.”

In 1850, Mill also wrote powerfully for the abolition of slavery. He fully recognized that in taking both these positions he was going against the tide of convention and popular opinion, but for him, taking these unpopular positions was perfectly consistent with his commitment to equality for all.

Since that time, until this November at least, history seemed to have slowly caught up with Mill; many felt that things had evolved. And the road of progress was not a smooth or easy one — many well-meaning liberals dragged their heels during the civil rights movement, causing Martin Luther King Jr. to write in his famous “Letter From a Birmingham Jail”: “I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Councilor or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice.”

Now, with the election of Donald Trump to the presidency, those who are working for racial equality are once again confronted with both of those nemeses: out-and-out white supremacists and their silent abettors, anemic liberals....

It is crucial to remember that Clinton won the election in the popular vote — by an increasingly sizable margin. That does not mean that liberals do not have to think hard about how they lost the Electoral College to Trump, but it does put into perspective the degree to which Democrats must rethink how they “appeal to Americans,” and who they feel these Americans are, and what their priorities are. Lilla believes that in neither case should issues of minority identities be accommodated in any substantial, public manner — his notion is that “identity politics” are the kiss of death for liberals.

But to follow Lilla’s and others’ advice would be to precisely turn away from not only progress but also reality. The United States is increasingly less white, and although some minorities voted for Trump, the overwhelming majority did not. Our country is also increasingly liberal. The Atlantic notes: “There is a backlash against the liberalism of the Obama era. But it is louder than it is strong. Instead of turning right, the country as a whole is still moving to the left.” So why abandon “identity politics”?...

What we find in the backlash by liberals against progressives is nothing other than a betrayal of the true and full values of liberalism. Liberals like Lilla would have us turning back the clock to compete for the leadership of what one might call an “off-White America,” with issues of race and gender and other minority positions relegated to the background — yet somehow not entirely abandoned, so that this America would not be confused with the starkly “pure America” favored by white supremacists. For many of us this is an unappealing prospect....

Liberalism will have to struggle with its conscience once again, but the question should not be “how equal can we afford to be,” but rather, “how can we best form lines of solidarity with the most vulnerable?”

The notion that on one hand one has class and economic identities and on the other hand race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation is a false binary. As the journalist Conor Lynch notes, “economic struggles and civil rights are deeply interconnected. Women and people of color, for example, are much more likely to suffer disproportionately from poverty and economic inequality.”

...A recent piece in Slate argues that the idea that Trump won the Rust Belt by appealing to poor whites misses the fact that many Democrats either voted for third party candidates or didn’t show up to vote; in short, the Democrats lost those voters. Rather than attempt to continue a brand of managerial liberalism that decides in a top-down matter what matters to “most Americans,” it would be vastly more effective to, if one is really interested in social justice, recognize what drives people to action and commitment and to the polls. They may well be bearing their identities with them, but building something together.

Mills felt that whatever inequality might exist should be balanced in favor of the weak and the most vulnerable. Those who wish to win the next election by muting calls for justice emanating from the margins have, at that moment, given up the name “liberal” for political expediency.


http://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2016/12/7/13863476/identity-politics-liberalism-lilla-inclusion
 

Pixieking

Banned
Empowered by Trump, Ohio legislature pass ‘heartbeat’ bill that would ban most abortions

Ohio lawmakers passed a bill late Tuesday that would prohibit abortion as soon as a fetal heartbeat can be detected — at around six weeks, before many women realize they are pregnant.

Abortion rights groups immediately condemned the measure, including how it was passed: As a last-minute amendment to an unrelated bill. They said it contains no exceptions for rape or incest. And they noted that the Ohio legislature is set to vote on another abortion restriction today, one that would ban the procedure at 20 weeks of pregnancy.

Unrelated but big news:
Dan Merica Verified account
‏@danmericaCNN

Rep. Keith Ellison says he will resign his seat in Congress if he wins DNC chair

CzFeAvjWEAAHuvi.jpg:large
 

pigeon

Banned
@evan_mcmullin said:
A fact you won't hear from Trump: automation has caused 85% of manufacturing job losses in the US. Not trade.

But blaming trade for manufacturing job losses is more appealing for leaders pursuing power by fanning white nationalism and nativism.

And for leaders who have little interest in facts or in policy or in actually helping Americans thrive.

Let's just run this guy as a Democrat in 2020.

I am dissatisfied that, as a socialist, I prefer the centrist conservative with mostly policies I oppose to the ostensible socialist candidate, but on the topic of why Donald Trump is bad and wrong he's way better. Democrats need to step it up.
 

fantomena

Member
Henry Kissinger will be visitng Norway soon and there will be a big demo held against him due to people see him as a war criminal. Wish I could go to that demo, but I live way too far away.
 

pigeon

Banned
pigeon did you read the slate article about Democrats needing to emulate Jesse Jackson?

Yes, I thought it was great. But I was also embarrassed to realize that I have never given Jesse Jackson the credit he deserves. It may come as a surprise to some, but I came late to wokeness, and still have a lot of institutional racism blinders to identify and remove.

Should've just run Jesse in 1984.
 

dramatis

Member
I'm okay with Keith Ellison if he's willing to commit full time, and is also adaptable in the role itself.

I think he should include the 'opposition' plank from Illyse Hogue's platform:
1. UNITY THROUGH RESISTANCE: Fighting Trump’s agenda has to be top priority for the Party in order to serve the health and wellbeing of the majority of citizens and for us to be the standard-bearer of American values. We must immediately oppose any attempt to circumscribe our Constitutional rights to free speech and assembly, marginalize and attack our fellow Americans, and debase the office of the President for private gain. Fighting against the Iraq War showed that we have to provide many different avenues of engagement for people to resist, so our approaches are multi-faceted and our numbers are undeniable.
Hogue also spoke of some of the problems with the structure that we should probably change. "Fighting voter suppression", "Reform the electoral college", etc.

Something that she also mentioned was the elimination of super delegates. If we do that, I would also like the elimination of caucuses.
 

Mike M

Nick N
Strange how people are still going on about superdelegates when Trump is on full display as the nightmare scenario they are there to prevent. If anything, I'd expect the push would be for people wanting the GOP to adopt them.
 

jtb

Banned
what's the legal justification (if there is one) for why the electoral college doesn't violate "one person, one vote"? have suits been filed against it on those grounds?
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Good news about Ellison.

Now he'll have time to work on starting those new progressive podcasts he promised us.
 

chadskin

Member
MIAMI (AP) — Federal authorities say a Florida woman has been charged with making death threats against the parent of a child who died in the Sandy Hook Elementary School shootings.

The U.S. Department of Justice announced the charges Wednesday. Its statement said 57-year-old Lucy Richards of Tampa made the threats because she thought the December 2012 shootings in Newton, Connecticut, were a hoax.

The child's parent now lives in South Florida. The department didn't release the parent's identity or exact location and didn't return calls seeking more details.

Richards was arrested and charged with four counts of transmitting threats. Each carries a maximum term of five years in prison.

She awaits an initial court appearance Dec. 19. It's not immediately known if she has an attorney.

The Sandy Hook shootings left 20 children and six adults dead.
https://apnews.com/b3d2d2f44dd14b44a1ef7f15706b2f79

This shit is sickening.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Let's just run this guy as a Democrat in 2020.

I am dissatisfied that, as a socialist, I prefer the centrist conservative with mostly policies I oppose to the ostensible socialist candidate, but on the topic of why Donald Trump is bad and wrong he's way better. Democrats need to step it up.

It's quite annoying, because it even sets up an easy attack on why private control of the means of production is a bad thing.
 
but the cap on representatives/electors at 435 isn't, right? I guess I'm just wondering how far "one person, one vote" legal justification (which is relatively new) can be taken.

"Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress"
 

kirblar

Member
but the cap on representatives/electors at 435 isn't, right? I guess I'm just wondering how far "one person, one vote" legal justification (which is relatively new) can be taken.
Because of a law passed in 1929....the last time the GOP had control of virtually everything.

Bumping up the # of reps needs to be a priority for Dems the next time they're in office.
 

jtb

Banned
"Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress"

But the apportionment of the house of representatives is not proportional to the number of voters in each state, due to the arbitrary maximum of 435 representatives established in the Apportionment Act of 1911 (and the minimum of each state having at least one representative).

i.e.Wyoming has 1 rep per 580,000 people, California has 1 rep per 730,000 people. I'm sure there are plenty of ways to weasel out of the house (and certainly the EC) upholding "one person, one vote," but I guess I don't know why these apportionment laws haven't been challenged on those legal/constitutional terms.

Or have they? I really don't know. I'm interested to learn more about why redistricting can be challenged on constitutional grounds, but apportionment cannot (this was sparked by reading an Emily Baezlon tweet on the subject fwiw)
 
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