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PoliGAF 2016 |OT16| Unpresidented

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Pixieking

Banned
I would love to see that change. However, outside of each of those 8m having a sudden epiphany, how does the Democrat party instill this belief in their registered supporters? How does one campaign on a "look I know you might not be in love with me, that I might not excite you, but not voting for me is far more dangerous to the ideals that you do love, that do excite you"?

I think this is where the DNC* should be doing outreach. Get Kander and Reid together (since they seem like they'd hit it off, based on their recent statements), and start pushing-out emails to the registered members. Use Trump as the lighter-fuel to burn under the member's asses.

Yes, it may shame them, but shame is a good motivator for doing better in life. And if you can get the DNC talking like this even before the Inauguration, then you're going to be able to keep on pushing email updates about how bad Trump/Pence is through the next 2/4 years.

* Assuming the DNC has the power to do this? I presume it does.
 
A way to dip into the Republican base, maybe? "We respect State laws, especially on gun rights". Slightly manipulative, since abortion wouldn't be, but, again, it's handled by the courts.

It's going to start with California, Washington, Oregon or Colorado passing sweeping gun legislation. It'll be challenged. The state courts, still appointed by Obama, will uphold them. It'll go to the SC. The SC will water the laws down, but ultimately some aspects of the reforms will stand. We'll now know the absolute max the Constitution allows. The other states will now know their boundaries and pass laws getting as close as they can to the line without crossing it. NY is a good candidate for this. Cuomo hates guns and everyone here who loves guns already hates him because of it. So he has nothing to lose.

Stats will show crime being reduced in the states with harsh gun laws. The data will become more readily available to study. There won't be much the NRA could do to stop state governments like California or NY from running their own studies, unlike the federal government.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I think the belief that Dems need to fall in love is correct, and could (should, even) be argued against on the basis of privilege. How privileged do you have to be to shirk your moral duty to make the world a better place, because you, personally, don't love the candidate put forward?

Considering liberal left loves to "check their privilege", I can see this being a slap in the face that might wake them up.
No it's entirely privilege and I had this exact realization on Wednesday. Fear drives turnout. Minorities turn out because they're justifiably afraid. Conservatives turn out because conservative media is a shrieking ball of fear. White straight liberals aren't afraid because nothing too bad ever happens to us. And so we need to be "inspired"
 

jtb

Banned
Now would be exactly the right time for Bernie to do some good with that mailing list of his. Or is he just going to twiddle his thumbs and use it to primary anyone who fails his purity test?

The Colorado single-payer bill getting crushed makes me worry that single-payer isn't the way to go politically.

But there should be something simple thought up that can be easily sold to people.

Yeah, I don't know what the answer is. But we need to be able to package and sell it. Obama was never able to sell the ACA in 8 years of office. And Ds paid a huge price for that.
 
I'm not sure why Democrats pursued gun control at all. Banning weapons won't address the sources of crime and suicide. Moreover, empowering the government at the expensive of the masses isn't something progressives should support.

Banning guns wildly lowers the suicide rate according to empirical research.

Get the fuck out of here, dude. I wouldn't be alive today if I had a gun in my household when I was growing up. Most suicide methods are hard and ineffective, suicide by gun is very easy and effective.
 

Valhelm

contribute something
You didn't misread. Don't even know what excelsior is talking about. My statement is basically a truism.

Incrementalism isn't acceptable for economic inequality or racial inequality.

Banning guns wildly lowers the suicide rate according to empirical research.

Get the fuck out of here, dude. I wouldn't be alive today if I had a gun in my household when I was growing up. Most suicide methods are hard and ineffective, suicide by gun is very easy and effective.

Okay. The problem is that it's still a band-aid. We don't need to only prevent suicides, we need to prevent suicide attempts through more accessible psychological help and the creation of a less miserable society.
 
Hillary Clinton's initiative for job creation relied entirely on the "generosity" of individual profiteers. Bernie Sanders wanted government agencies to directly employee young people to the benefit of our nation. This miniature New Deal was hard to accomplish, but far more direct. Nobody would argue that Trump's jobs plan was properly explained (or even solvent), but his promises were direct and simple and much easier to sell. "We'll make China bring back factory jobs" is a much better sound byte than "I have a plan to encourage job growth." This shouldn't be up for debate.

I'm not arguing that. I've stated before that simple messages are what work. I'm arguing that your original position that Clinton didn't have such a plan and that she was right-wing about it, is incorrect.

"Anti-globalism" absolutely has anti-Semitic connotations! But where do you think anger toward globalism comes from? This rhetoric is the misdirection of legitimate anger against capitalism toward an imaginary group of potentially Jewish conspirators who are trying to transform the world. Changes like immigration and unemployment are both consequences of capitalism. Anti-globalism allows candidates like Trump to benefit from fear these consequences without attacking the source. Fascists have been doing this for almost a century.

Ok, I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Are you trying to excuse this behavior?
 
The base of the Democratic party is minorities, women, and millennials. It's known as the Obama coalition.

Clinton lost millenials to Sanders and women to Trump...

EU people always walk into conversations with misconceptions about what works in US politics.
Because we don't follow the dogmatic believe that the US is special snowflake where stuff that works everywhere else doesn't work.

Moreover, because they don't have the history of diversity that the US has, they always put white people first.
Just because minorities and Europe aren't always distinguishable by a single phenotypical trait(skin color) doesn't mean Europe isn't diverse.

So the priority is always economic populism (which is just lying and demagoguery) over intersectionality,
The priority is to do whats best for the community. The "Fuck you, got mine" sentiment is way less apparent in Europe.
Thats why Europe has universal healthcare for everyone without notable differences in quality of care, no matter whether you are rich or poor.
Thats why Europe has a free or almost free education system, where everyone gets the same opportunities regardless of financial situation.
Thats why europeans are fine with paying up to over 50% in taxes so the government can give 36 months of unemployment benefits followed by an unconditional base payment called "Sozialhilfe - "Social support".


That is how you leave people behind. It's not like Germany, where your population of black people in total is some 800k+, so you ignore them because they don't have much voting power.
Why do you think Germany leaves minorities behind and ignores them?
To be honest I rarely get what the perceived problem with minorities in Germany is for americans. We don't have systemic racism like we see it in the US.
It seems like you are criticizing more the fact that black people are such a small minority in Germany than the way they are treated in Germany.

In the US, they're 42 million people. Even if they weren't a significant chunk of the population and therefore a potent voting bloc, you still can't leave 42 million people behind.
I don't get this argument.
If they weren't a sizable chuck, that would mean if they weren't 42 million people.
So lets say they were less than 1 million people, would that change anything?

Colorado is the state with the highest amount of college-educated voters in the whole US. The divide between Trump and Hillary voters is heavy in education. She won by a higher percentage in CO than Trump did in WI, MI, or PA.
All the more reason for democrats to push for an education reform so that everyone gets the same education opportunities.

Anti-establishment is not a fucking position. It's not a fucking policy. It's nothing but wanting to kick those who have power in the balls, because you want the power. It has no plans. It has no solutions. It's all about 'optics'—we can't take money, it'll look bad, even if we need it to fund congressional races!
Its about not taking money from special interest groups.
Do you really believe Wall Street poured money on Clinton and didn't expect anything in return?
Its fucking bankers, the calculate return on investment in their sleep. Thats literally all they do.

We can't rebuke white people for being racist, they'll get mad at us and we'll look bad! Even if you're seasoned and qualified, if you don't agree 100% with us, we're not going to accept you!
Racists are racists no matter what, but politicians have to be smart and look at the reasons for the racism. People don't just become openly racist, its usually problems they face and demagogues who are telling them to blame minorities for it.

Thats what Michael Moores point was. Yes they are assholes, but if want to be their president you need to also be willing to address their problems and not just shrug them off as the racist assholes they are.

And that is how idealism weakens the party. Labour in the UK is an example of this right now, because they are always focused on infighting the party and 'purging the Blairites', when obviously from a moderate standpoint even a fucking Blairite would be better than a Tory, no? But no, in the eyes of the far left a Blairite is a Tory, with no nuances, no room for differences, no compromises. Sorry, I'm not interested in turning the Democratic Party into that.
I don't know much about UK politics, but I don't know how that connects to the US.
Sanders would have definitely won against Trump, his idealism wouldn't have weakened the party against Trump.

Why is the uncompromising attitude of the left permitted, while an uncompromising attitude from closer to the center is garbage? There is hypocrisy everywhere.
Because the centrist approach gave us Trump now, while the left approach is what works like a charm in Scandinavia and other places.

Warren was a Republican for much longer than Hillary Clinton, then she became a Democrat. Indeed, a principled person.
Shifting ones principles based on inside reconsideration resonates more with voters than shifting positions on topics according to poll numbers.

Sanders is super against money in politics, unless the DNC is funneling some into his reelection campaigns. Then, it's okay. Indeed, also a principled person.
As long as he doesn't have to meet special interest groups.
I mean, if the 2 million dollars from Pfizer would get them the same influence as the 10 dollars gave 40 year old Mary from Minnesota, then Pfizer wouldn't give the 2 million dollars.
Money buying influence is the problem.

Get real. Nobody in the world is pure after they've lived long enough. They're not the future of the party, they're old. Exit polling said the electorate wanted more conservative policies, not more liberal ones. But that is selectively ignored by the Sanders stans, just like how he didn't really sweep the rust belt, and the states he got he didn't even win by high margins.

Yeah oddly enough Sanders appealed the the left and independents, while Hillary appealed to the centrist part of the democrats.
In the primaries his group was smaller than Hillarys, but in the general election these independents even some of the far left went to Trump, leaving Clinton with only the cetrist part of the democrats.
Sanders however would have had the left, the centrists and the independents, because if Hillary had lost the primaries, her voters would have never supported Trump.
Or in short: Sanders appeal was actually broader than Clintons.
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
Anyway pigeon I don't think we need to make a change via subtraction. Hillary II can still say intersectionality and black lives matter and whatever, I don't think that is what flipped people. I think Hillary II should ALSO say I'm going to bring back yer jerbs!!! Etc

Edit: Clinton lost white milennials and white women. Not overall.
 

Valhelm

contribute something
I'm not arguing that. I've stated before that simple messages are what work. I'm arguing that your original position was that Clinton didn't have such a plan and that she was right-wing about it.



Ok, I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Are you trying to excuse this behavior?

Relying on business owners to save the economy is more right-wing than direct attempts to relieve the suffering of the working class.

And I'm not justifying anything. Trump became president through his synthesis of racial fears with economic fears. Anti-Globalism is the perfect example.

Of course it's not acceptable, but it's reality. If a candidate runs on reparations as the primary policy and gets no traction, is that a moral person?

So you're arguing against positions that aren't present in our political climate? Cool.
 

marrec

Banned
Anyway pigeon I don't think we need to make a change via subtraction. Hillary II can still say intersectionality and black lives matter and whatever, I don't think that is what flipped people. I think Hillary II should ALSO say I'm going to bring back yer jerbs!!! Etc

Edit: Clinton lost white milennials and white women. Not overall.

People are confused if they think some of us have been saying that the WWC were scared off by our intersectionality.

The WWC isn't scared of minorities, they just can't be asked to care. We can be intersectional and reach out the the rust belt at the same time.

Shocking for some people I know.
 

yamarei

Neo Member
I'm not sure why Democrats pursued gun control at all. Banning weapons won't address the sources of crime and suicide. Moreover, empowering the government at the expensive of the masses isn't something progressives should support.

Isn't this flat out wrong given what has happened in Australia, or is that not a reasonable comparison?
 
Hillary lost because she was viewed as as a criminal and most other candidates probably would have won.

I still have no idea why she was viewed as a criminal, but what the party needs to learn moving forward is to account for which of their politicians are irrationally hated and encourage those politicians not to run for president.

A lot of Democrats like Hillary (myself included!) because they see that she's a fine person and her policy goals and desires line up with most Democrats so she won the primary. But she should have been encouraged not to run considering that non-Democrats viewed her as a criminal.
 

War Peaceman

You're a big guy.
Yeah oddly enough Sanders appealed the the left and independents, while Hillary appealed to the centrist part of the democrats.
In the primaries his group was smaller than Hillarys, but in the general election these independents even some of the far left went to Trump, leaving Clinton with only the cetrist part of the democrats.
Sanders however would have had the left, the centrists and the independents, because if Hillary had lost the primaries, her voters would have never supported Trump.
Or in short: Sanders appeal was actually broader than Clintons.

Where is the evidence Sanders supporters went for Trump in any significant amount?

I can buy that Sanders may have won where Clinton didn't. There's something plausible there.

Sanders would likely have ran on a simpler message and been a man. That may have been enough. But I don't find it believable that those moderate democrats in PA/MI/WI/NH would have voted for a socialist. They don't want government handouts, they want their old 9-5 job making stuff and the chance to own a house and look after their family without a government handout. Trump's fantasies that he would restore these industrial jobs or return to the greatness of the past appealed to them just about enough. I don't see how a socialist would have done. They poll worse than muslims.
 

Debirudog

Member
I'm not sure why Democrats pursued gun control at all. Banning weapons won't address the sources of crime and suicide. Moreover, empowering the government at the expensive of the masses isn't something progressives should support.
It worked in Australia.

(Hopefully Crabs does not correct me on this)

why is it did we have a bunch gun massacres then more than any other country? Maybe not gun control but measures such as background checks and shutting down loopholes to not let morally-deranged people purchase these weapons seemed like common sense to me. I think Obama had the right idea, "No, we're not going to get your guns but we need to prevent assholes from getting it."

Yet, that's too extreme??? To be more responsible with your weapon???

it seemed to have made sense when there was constant violence and death caused by deranged maniacs...with fucking guns.
 

East Lake

Member
So you're arguing against positions that aren't present in our political climate? Cool.
It's an obvious hypothetical, don't be dense. The point is that if you're going to ignore that your policies didn't grab enough voters, but your "base" was in the right so it's not nobody's fault, that's a nice blanket to wrap yourself in but isn't particularly useful for anyone in the real world wondering how to expand the base.
 
giving up on gun control is going to be a tough pill to swallow but it might have to be necessary.

It's priority number one, as far as I'm concerned.

And as much as people laugh at shit like Ted Cruz posting that video of the bacon on the assault rifle... A dem who actually knows how to handle a gun, or even enjoys it, and posts videos of himself at the firing range or something, will go a lot farther than people realize.

People aren't as opposed to stuff like background checks or whatever as it seems. People in rural areas just would like some reassurances that you actually have an interest in something that they enjoy. Or don't completely hate it and everything about gun culture.

There is far more of a practical use for them than people realize. Like, if I lived where some of my family lived up in New Hampshire, I'd strap a shot gun on my back every fucking time I left the house. Bears and shit everywhere.
 
Relying on business owners to save the economy is more right-wing than direct attempts to relieve the suffering of the working class.

So the only method that works and will resonate is big government or racism?

That's out of touch with the exit polls suggesting that people wanted a more conservative government or "the same."

I don't think a big government would have gotten more votes in this climate, from the WWC.
 

lednerg

Member
Sanders was able to energize the very same people that Hillary lost, the Obama coalition of 2008, people who have been suffering for ages as the technocrats congratulated themselves. Call it sexism or racism or whatever the fuck. Just get high off your own supply and keep punching left and down. Never learn.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
I'm not sure why Democrats pursued gun control at all. Banning weapons won't address the sources of crime and suicide. Moreover, empowering the government at the expensive of the masses isn't something progressives should support.

Federal Ban and anti-trafficing enforcement WILL reduce gun deaths and crime. But, like jumping straight to a total single payer health care, is a bridge too far.

Honestly though, unless you have someone like Kander who can break through that image of wanting to go straight to a total Gun Ban, that's what they will say and think anyway.
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
Sanders was able to energize the very same people that Hillary lost, the Obama coalition of 2008, people who have been suffering for ages as the technocrats congratulated themselves. Call it sexism or racism or whatever the fuck. Just get high off your own supply and keep punching left and down. Never learn.
There's one piece of the obama coalition you are forgetting...
 
Sanders was able to energize the very same people that Hillary lost, the Obama coalition of 2008, people who have been suffering for ages as the technocrats congratulated themselves. Call it sexism or racism or whatever the fuck. Just get high off your own supply and keep punching left and down. Never learn.

You do realize that Bernie failed to energize minority voters, right? You know, a massive portion of the Obama coalition and the Democratic Party...

Keep ignoring that though, or as you stated, "Never learn"
 

Zackat

Member
I'm not sure why Democrats pursued gun control at all. Banning weapons won't address the sources of crime and suicide. Moreover, empowering the government at the expensive of the masses isn't something progressives should support.
Sandy Hook.

Smh at you guys. If I could warp back in time a few days and show you guys your posts you would be so angry at yourself. Don't give up the fight on guns. They are a blight.
 
I'm not sure why Democrats pursued gun control at all. Banning weapons won't address the sources of crime and suicide. Moreover, empowering the government at the expensive of the masses isn't something progressives should support.

Because Obama couldn't deal with the guilt that people from large cities and coastal states gave him every single time a mass shooting happened. People just wanted him to "do something".

As hard as it is to turn to people after something like that and say "sorry nothing I can do".

But, really, we need to stand our ground here. And search other options to reduce gun violence that aren't so constitutionally difficult. I remember a few years ago after a mass shooting Paul Ryan said he would introduce a mental health bill as a solution. Which Dems wanted no part of I guess.

But jesus christ if a Republican offers something like that take them up on it. Mental health reform would probably be a better way to tackle mass shootings and violence than any gun control laws we could pass. Or wouldn't be so easily considered unconstitutional.
 
The DNC's message was that Bernie was unelectable. People heard that, got scared, and voted accordingly. The DNC and the media were wrong. Now we're here.

So your argument is that the DNC was able to scare those weak willed minorities while rust belt whites stood strong and tried to show everybody the way? Fucking really?
 

Valhelm

contribute something
So the only method that works and will resonate is big government or racism?

That's out of touch with the exit polls suggesting that people wanted a more conservative government or "the same."

I don't think a big government would have gotten more votes in this climate, from the WWC.

It worked for Sanders. Trump found a pretty clever middle ground with his promise to use state power to "bring the jobs back", but without any plans for government employment that could scare tax-payers.

Stronger unions are a much better solution than big government.
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
The DNC's message was that Bernie was unelectable. People heard that, got scared, and voted accordingly. The DNC and the media were wrong. Now we're here.
So minority voters were scared into voting for Hillary?

Hill didn't really inspire that piece either tho

Not saying Bernie is the answer fwiw
Nobody said inspire. This is like tangential. Minorities didn't fail Hillary's campaign.
 
identity
politics
and
moralism
are
not
enough
They are. The problem, which I'm willing to admit, is that Clinton had a terrible amount of manufactured scandals that people like Comey were able to exploit to excite R turnout and depress D turnout. If she didn't have those, she would have won. But she did, so she lost.

Alternatively, if someone like Tim Kaine himself ran and won the nominee, since he's squeaky clean, he would have won. The problem wasn't the policies for the message or whatever, which were exactly what they needed to be but a candidate drowned in scandals that prevented that message from getting out and overtaking it entirely along with other mistakes such as running far too many negative ads and not enough positive ones.

That much can be accepted by everyone right? The problem is that some aren't stopping there and then going a step beyond to say that not only do we need a candidate who's not flawed but we need a candidate who's both not flawed AND able to appeal to working class whites.

But that's not what the info we're getting is telling us. Clinton's loss margins in key states are small. If she weren't so flawed, if she didn't have the scandals and e-mail stuff that would have pushed her over the edge. She did, which is why it was able to be exploited and she lost. But if she didn't she would have had the edge she needed to win.

That some are thus using this to not come to the conclusion of nominating someone pretty much free of scandal like Tim Kaine (obviously not anymore since he's probably poisoned goods now, but just as an example of the type of candidate) but instead jumping at the first opportunity to use this as a sign to completely change the party's platform and shift the focus to WWC voters when the data shows such a large change isn't necessary to win but so many are pushing for it to be the direction the party needs to go anyway is very, VERY concerning to me as a minority and has truly opened my eyes to who's an ally and who isn't and who's willing to throw me under the bus the first time they get even the slightest, most tenuous cover and opportunity to do so even when it's nit actually necessary and not the right thing to do, but charging full-steam ahead because apparently it's not enough to win but winning the largest margins possible is the goal, and if throwing minorities under the bus isn't necessary to win but would help secure even larger margins and you have the cover and opportunity to do it, then do be it, and that's terrifying and very eye-opening to me. Just... terrifying.
 
The DNC's message was that Bernie was unelectable. People heard that, got scared, and voted accordingly. The DNC and the media were wrong.

Bernie's message was that we needed to take everyone's health insurance, raise their taxes by thousands of dollars, and then put them on government health insurance.

These specifics were never attacked once by Hillary during the primary, but it's pretty hard to be certain that he would have survived the general once his core proposal was "raise your taxes so we can replace your health insurance with a government plan."

You can definitely argue that Bernie's plan would be much better than what we have now, but there are huge political roadblocks Bernie never had to deal with.
 

lednerg

Member
So your argument is that the DNC as able to scare those weak willed minorities while rust belt whites tried to show everybody the way? Fucking really?

My argument is that the Democratic Party will continue to fuck over labor at their own peril. Nobody was enthused to vote for more of the same.
 
I

People aren't as opposed to stuff like background checks or whatever as it seems. People in rural areas just would like some reassurances that you actually have an interest in something that they enjoy. Or don't completely hate it and everything about gun culture.

Most people in rural areas who use guns are convinced Democrats want to take their guns away.
 

lednerg

Member
Go back and read what you posted

Okay...

UJtUxYu.gif


Sources:
Bernie v Trump
Hillary v Trump
Bernie's Favorability
Hillary's Favorability

EDIT: Hillary's favorability chart going back to '09 paints a much worse picture, but I wanted to keep the X and Y axes identical.
We tried to warn you, but you kept at it with the identity politics and so on.
 

Wilsongt

Member
Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Vice President-elect Mike Pence will take over the responsibility of leading the White House transition team from Chris Christie.

The reshuffle is another blow to the embattled Garden State governor, who was once favored for the VP slot that Pence ultimately snagged when Trump bowed to party pressure.
 
It worked for Sanders. Trump found a pretty clever middle ground with his promise to use state power to "bring the jobs back", but without any plans for government employment that could scare tax-payers.

Stronger unions are a much better solution than big government.

It worked for Sanders in the primaries in Michigan and Wisconsin. He lost in Ohio & Pennsylvania.

So I'm not sure you can say it resonated better than Clinton's approach.

Regardless, if stronger unions are a better solution than big government - that wasn't Trump's promise. It seems that insulting Mexico & China works best in the general - at least judging from both Trump & Obama's winning approach.
 

Hindl

Member
Okay...


We tried to warn you, but you kept at it with the identity politics and so on.

Bernie didn't have to go through the general and a barrage of attacks. Just as an example, Bernie's specific plan would've raised taxes on the middle class. Tell me how you sell that to rust belt voters. They don't care what they get in return, they just hear that their taxes are being raised. And he wouldn't be able to deny it
 
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