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PoliGAF 2016 |OT16| Unpresidented

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The far left would forever lose my respect if they diss Kamala Harris who has a strong record on criminal justice reform.

I don't know that the "far left" will like her that much and I think she'll get dinged for being an ambitious and cautious woman. She strikes me as someone who has been extremely careful with the trajectory of her career and with her words. I quite like her so far and think she could have a bright future but it struck me while comparing her and Sanchez how... platitudinous Harris could sound. Like, I'd read public statements on some issues and not really know where she stood (not necessarily a weakness but the left flank seems to like firebrands). That will probably change once she has to start voting on things and having to be a Democratic senator from a dark blue state in the Trump era... but who knows what high-profile votes might come to define her.
 

Debirudog

Member
People still blame obama for the housing crisis... of which he had nothing to do with it

Withdrawing from iraq when bush signed an agreement

That's when he was in office though. People love to scape goat but when Obama's out of the picture and it's Trump's idea to start a trade war, how can you just blame it on the previous president who supported TPP???

And for the latter, Obama kinda embraced taking the credit that he would leave Iraq and vouched for it strongly in his campaign. I think that was a grave error on his part.
 
I do think you're underestimating how popular a trade war would make Trump. If it becomes a trade 'war' against China, people are going to want the big strongman who can protect them. They're not going to want to roll over for the yellow bastards like those pussy Democrats want to. And it'll be justified along exactly the same lines as Brexit - oh, it'll be tough for a few years, but in the future lie mystical golden days.

Trump's supporters are going to be dead before they can reach the mystical golden days.

His supporters are really old and are on fixed incomes and aren't going to like 6 to 7% inflation.
 

numble

Member
Free trade is much better to support as a candidate because trade wars hurt old people and old people vote.

No indication that opposing the TPP would lead to a trade war. Ford was against the TPP because Japan engages in currency manipulation and export-oriented protectionism for its auto industry, for instance. There isn't any indication that the status quo of no TPP means a trade war.
 
No indication that opposing the TPP would lead to a trade war. Ford was against the TPP because Japan engages in currency manipulation and export-oriented protectionism for its auto industry, for instance. There isn't any indication that the status quo of no TPP means a trade war.

You know that Trump's team wants a 10% tariff on all goods entering the United States?
 
Do they though?

Trump had no public record. He was able to lie his ass off about previously supporting single-payer, the Iraqi war etc because he's never borne any responsibility for those things. Compare that to candidates like Rubio who were raked across the coals for supporting immigration reform.

Remember that the conservative post-mortems for McCain and Romney was that they were dirty moderates when that was plainly untrue. I think you just need to find someone charismatic enough and more importantly someone who'll win.

Yes, precisely because of what you've mentioned here. Their base doesn't care if you've been shaky on conservative stances in the past. They always vote either way. They (correctly) realize that half of what you want is better than jack shit. Our side doesn't get that, so you have to promise the moon while also making it sound feasible to give them the moon.

I do think you're underestimating how popular a trade war would make Trump. If it becomes a trade 'war' against China, people are going to want the big strongman who can protect them. They're not going to want to roll over for the yellow bastards like those pussy Democrats want to. And it'll be justified along exactly the same lines as Brexit - oh, it'll be tough for a few years, but in the future lie mystical golden days.

No one actually reads into this stuff that much. When people talk about the "economy is my number one priority" they just mean that they want money. If a trade war causes them to have less money in 2018 than they had in 2014, then they'll flip.

It's all obamas fault

Which is why this won't work, and why it didn't work for Obama, or Dubya, or Bill, or....

Part of the statement that "people view the Presidency as the end-all, be-all of government" is that people also throw the blame for all of their problems on the President. And it's even worse for Trump because he has Congressional control. There's literally no excuse.

Like, if you believe that these people really really hate free trade, then you also have to accept (and turn to your advantage) that these people see no reason at all for Trump to stall a full repeal of NAFTA. Like, on January 21st. In the minds of most Americans, the process is "On Jan. 21st, they'll get together and vote Yes on a bill that just reads 'Should the US cancel NAFTA?' and then Trump can sign it by noon."

Trump has literally zero excuses. The average American doesn't really respond to talk of "Well, I'd like to do what I said I'd do with these offices, but ya know, it got kinda complicated due to blah blah blah..."
 
Hypothetical for you. Let's say a Democrat wins the White House in 2020, barely defeating Trump. And Trump refuses any transition, calling the election a sham.

What then? I could honestly see this happening but I have no fucking idea how it would play out.
 
Hypothetical for you. Let's say a Democrat wins the White House in 2020, barely defeating Trump. And Trump refuses any transition, calling the election a sham.

What then? I could honestly see this happening but I have no fucking idea how it would play out.

They pull a North Carolina on a federal level and try to strip a bunch of powers from the executive branch?
 
They pull a North Carolina on a federal level and try to strip a bunch of powers from the executive branch?

As long as the Dems win the House or senate in 2018 or 2020, I don't think anything close to that will happen. As long as they have more 41+ Senators, I don't think that could happen.

NC could do what they did because they had filibuster proof majorities.
 

Holmes

Member
I mean, I don't want to get into a discussion about the electoral college vs. the popular vote because we've done it enough recently, but the Clinton coalition did get almost 3 million more votes than the next guy. So in most definitions, it's a winning coalition.
 
Hypothetical for you. Let's say a Democrat wins the White House in 2020, barely defeating Trump. And Trump refuses any transition, calling the election a sham.

What then? I could honestly see this happening but I have no fucking idea how it would play out.

I question what sort of valuable knowledge can be gained from actually meeting with Trump.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Hypothetical for you. Let's say a Democrat wins the White House in 2020, barely defeating Trump. And Trump refuses any transition, calling the election a sham.

What then? I could honestly see this happening but I have no fucking idea how it would play out.

It would be time for the military to prove where its loyalties lie.
 
I mean, I don't want to get into a discussion about the electoral college vs. the popular vote because we've done it enough recently, but the Clinton coalition did get almost 3 million more votes than the next guy. So in most definitions, it's a winning coalition.

How so?

The fundamental point of the US presidential campaign is to secure votes that are relevant. We can empirically see that millions of excess votes cast in support of Trump and Hillary did not matter in terms of deciding the outcome. Plus, we knew statistically a lot of voters wouldn't matter well ahead of the election.

Moreover, we can see Hillary did not replicate 1:1 the Obama coalition nor did she craft a different group that would make her president elect. The nearly 17 million people who helped nominate Hillary during the Democratic primary coupled with other folks who decided to fall in line in the GE was a losing coalition. They put their faith in a political choice that was wrong.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Ugh what a terrible day. First Carrie Fisher's heart attack, now I find out my favorite professor from college died.

And TRUMP AIN'T MAKING IT BETTER
 
Tiger has been compromised. I don't know what the Russians have on him, but it has to be bad.

C0aYbMSWEAAk80E.jpg
 

sphagnum

Banned
Wouldn't it lie with the President still in power?

That situation will almost certainly lead to a civil war.

That's why I'm saying the military would have to show who it's loyal to. The president is CiC but they take an oath to defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic.
 
How so?

The fundamental point of the US presidential campaign is to secure votes that are relevant. We can empirically see that millions of excess votes cast in support of Trump and Hillary did not matter in terms of deciding the outcome. Plus, we knew statistically a lot of voters wouldn't matter well ahead of the election.

Moreover, we can see Hillary did not replicate 1:1 the Obama coalition nor did she craft a different group that would make her president elect. The nearly 17 million people who helped nominate Hillary during the Democratic primary coupled with other folks who decided to fall in line in the GE was a losing coalition. They put their faith in a political choice that was wrong.

So what was the right answer?
 
No, I read that article too.
All is well - what is lost becomes found.

The Atlantic - Globalization Doesn't Make as Much Sense as It Used To

Thomas Jefferson saw the United States as primarily an agricultural producer and spoke for the Southern planters, who depended on foreign markets and who embraced Smith’s notion of minimal government. Alexander Hamilton felt differently: Aware of the mercantilism-fueled Industrial Revolution in the U.K. and the unprecedented wealth it created, he took the side of the nascent manufacturers of the Northern colonies by calling for subsidies to support the development of technology and manufacturing industries, as well as high tariffs to protect them.

Hamilton understood Smith’s free-market, free-trade arguments and agreed that if all nations played by Smith’s rules, free trade would be the best policy for the fledgling United States to adopt. But he noted that neither the U.K. nor any other nation yet adhered to the conditions Smith laid out, and warned that it would be folly for the U.S. to be the exception. George Washington sided with Hamilton on the issue. In contrast to most of his upper-class peers, Washington wore only garments made of domestically produced fabric, and emphasized that he bought no cheese or beer “but such as is made in America.”

When the War of 1812 was nearly lost for want of the young nation’s capability to produce the necessities of war, Jefferson changed his mind. Declaring that “manufactures are now as necessary to our independence as to our comfort,” he came around in support of high tariffs to protect American industry. Thus, from shortly after the war to about 1950, the United States enacted mercantilist trade and industrial policies; by 1900, it had become the richest country the world had ever seen.

By the end of World War II, with the economic infrastructure of Europe and Japan in ruins, virtually every American industry could out-compete those in the rest of the world. American industry was so strong, in fact, that it no longer needed the help and protection of the government. Rather, it needed the rest of the world to recover economically from the war, so that there would be markets open to its exports and investment. And once there were, the U.S. would gain from pursuing policies that promoted globalization.

So, in theory, free trade was a win-win proposition, but only as long as a few key assumptions held true: There needed to be fixed exchange rates, full employment, an absence of international flows of labor or capital, an absence of economies of scale, and perfectly competitive markets.

Such conditions could almost never be found in reality, but as it happened, the features of global economy in the late 1940s and 1950s came pretty close to matching them: The International Monetary Fund maintained a system of fixed exchange rates, such that the dollar was valued at a fixed amount of gold and all other currencies were fixed to the dollar; most international trade was in commodities like sugar and iron ore, which were traded in more or less perfectly competitive markets with no economies of scale; and the rise of multinational corporations was mostly still in the future, so international financial, labor, and technological flows were limited. These circumstances made free trade newly viable, and the country swiftly abandoned mercantilism.

For about 30 years it worked splendidly, with the U.S. profiting greatly from the global postwar recovery and participating in the foreign markets it revived.
With Washington taking the lead, a series of international negotiations dramatically reduced tariffs and trade barriers. In addition, advances in shipping dramatically reduced transport costs, while corporations started making more foreign investments, carrying new technologies with them. The period between 1945 and 1975 saw the appearance first of a miraculous German recovery in the 1950s and then a miraculous Japanese recovery in the 1960s. Meanwhile, in the U.S., median household income and per-capita income roughly doubled during that postwar period, while unemployment and inflation remained generally low.

Then circumstances changed. As the productivity of other countries rose faster than America’s in the rush of recovery from the war, exchange rates initially set in the late 1940s should have been adjusted to reflect the changes in relative productivity. But for various reasons—in part because of the U.S.’s desire during the Cold War to strengthen the economies of its allies—exchange rates were held steady, and was reflected in the U.S.’s balance of international payments, which went into a steep deficit as America increasingly imported more than it exported. In 1971, the United States ran its first trade deficit—$1.3 billion—since 1888. The dollar was at that time convertible into gold, and the metal flowed out of the country as foreign exporters cashed in their dollars for something they deemed safer for the long run.

Despite government efforts to stem the deficit, it only continued growing. In 1972, President Nixon threw out the postwar fixed-rate system by refusing to make further gold payments and letting the value of the dollar be determined by the forces of the currency markets. That provided some relief for America as currencies adjusted to more realistic exchange rates, but many countries continued to maintain substantial barriers to imports and began buying and selling dollars in efforts to keep their currencies somewhat undervalued versus the dollar. By 1980, America’s trade deficit was nearly $20 billion and growing, as globalization broadened.

These shifts represented departures from those crucial base-state theoretical conditions upon which free trade depended. First, the advent of shipping containers and the construction of huge vessels dramatically reduced the costs of international transport. Also, trade that in the past had been largely in commodities came to be dominated by the manufactured goods of industries characterized by economies of scale, such as steel, cars, and chemicals—which violated another theoretical assumption in the argument for free trade.

Further deviating from those assumptions were the policies of major trading countries such as Japan, which accounted for half of the U.S.’s trade deficit. In theory, nations were expected to concentrate on producing and exporting what they did best while importing most everything else. But, like Alexander Hamilton and a number of early American leaders, Japan and others chose not to go along with that thinking. Some of the key elements of Japan’s approach were a focus on exports, the protection of domestic markets, government-guided investment in industries that featured economies of scale (steel, ship-building, and semiconductors, to name a few), and the management of the yen to be undervalued versus the dollar. As an architect of Japan’s strategy, Naohiro Amaya, explained to me for my 1988 book Trading Places, “We did the opposite of what the American economists told us.”

These policies, along with expanded international flows of finance and technology and trade dominated by industries with economies of scale, essentially negated the assumptions upon which the postwar conventional wisdom of free trade was based. Indeed, in the early 1980s, the economists Paul Krugman, James Brander, Joseph Stiglitz, and others began to note that the standard assumptions of free trade had become unrealistic. Krugman in particular emphasized that economies of scale are a driver of trade flows as important as land, labor, and capital, at least in industries such as aircraft- and car-manufacturing. For this work, he was eventually awarded the Nobel Prize in economics in 2008.

Some thought that these economists’ work would influence trade policy. But there was a problem. Incorporating economies of scale into the equation meant that comparative advantage depended not only on the factors of production—labor, land, capital—but also on quantities produced. Advantage, as Hamilton had long ago perceived, could thus be created by policies that would, through the selective imposition of tariffs, subsidies, and other policies, encourage certain industries to thrive. This is what Naohiro Amaya meant when he spoke of rejecting American advice on free trade: He was in the business of picking winners.

But the notion that the government could pick winners and losers did not fit with the American suspicion of government, not to mention with the established views of academics and pundits heavily invested in orthodoxy. Conservatives automatically rejected the idea of such government intervention, and national-security groups that had become accustomed to using free-trade deals as bargaining chips for foreign geopolitical support were also strongly opposed. Some academics added that mercantilism might work in theory but would be captured by special interests in practice. (Still, none seemed to recognize that having little policy in the face of other countries’ policies was still a policy—one that deserted the industries targeted by other governments.)

So, there came to be a consensus that the fix was for America to negotiate more and better free-trade deals, and that is what Washington tried to do until about a year ago. The result has been the establishment of the World Trade Organization (WTO), NAFTA, the U.S.-Korea (KORUS) free-trade agreement, and China’s entrance into the WTO. These developments have been accompanied by a steady increase of the U.S.’s annual trade deficit (from the roughly $20 billion in 1980 to the current $500 billion), the offshoring of much formerly U.S.-based production (even in capital- and technology-intensive industries), and the widening of inequality in U.S. incomes and wealth.

The results of the election seem to indicate that—the views of economists and foreign-policy experts notwithstanding—America is about to change course on trade policy. That doesn’t necessarily mean a return to pre-World War II protectionism. It could instead simply mean a revival of the spirit that inspired the foundations of the postwar economic order. That spirit, articulated by the economist John Maynard Keynes, focused on assuring balanced trade—the avoidance of chronic surpluses on the part of some trading partners and chronic deficits on the part of others. Thus a new order might operate to prevent the misalignment of currency valuations, to abolish or offset the impact of tax subsidies, and to mitigate the implicit subsidization of state-owned enterprises. It has been largely forgotten that one of the key objectives of postwar free-trade policy was to maintain a roughly balanced trade account—a goal that the country is likely about to pursue anew and that will likely affect its policies touching on not just trade, but investments, currency, technology, and labor as well.

Most of us "know" things. But perhaps we shouldn't confuse that for real knowledge.
 
So what was the right answer?

Don't know.

Liberals didn't want to take a risk with O'Malley and I think Bernie torpedoed his anti-establishment campaign by saying all the great stuff I want to do for the people has to be offset by tax increases on the rich which isn't true and was a mistake. In addition, Hillary's team sucked up so much talent (relatively unknown people who advise) that the other liberal primary contenders had to turn to retired folks, blackballed folks, or no one on a number of issues. A guy like Bernie didn't have the intellectual support to effectively go toe to toe with the shills hanging around a Jeb Bush/Hillary Clinton type.

Futhermore, how much could Donald get away with against a person with less baggage is another thing given his skillset? Was it because Hillary was that bad or was Donald as a salesman that good with his rhetoric? Ultimately, I think a gamble with O'Malley was the most rational bet given what Obama had done, the GOP opponents on the other side, and the desire for change from the status quo on a variety of key topics.
 
"We didn't have really free trade and we became rich" is, uhh, kind of a bad start to an argument.

We used the gold standard and became rich also. The gold standard blows donkey balls.
 
Don't know.

Liberals didn't want to take a risk with O'Malley and I think Bernie torpedoed his anti-establishment campaign by saying all the great stuff I want to do for the people has to be offset by tax increases on the rich which isn't true and was a mistake. In addition, Hillary's team sucked up so much talent (relatively unknown people who advise) that the other liberal primary contenders had to turn to retired folks, blackballed folks, or no one on a number of issues. A guy like Bernie didn't have the intellectual support to effectively go toe to toe with the shills hanging around a Jeb Bush/Hillary Clinton type.

Futhermore, how much could Donald get away with against a person with less baggage is another thing given his skillset? Was it because Hillary was that bad or was Donald as a salesman that good with his rhetoric? Ultimately, I think a gamble with O'Malley was the most rational bet given what Obama had done, the GOP opponents on the other side, and the desire for change from the status quo on a variety of key topics.

You're a really weird parody account, but you know that O'Malley has a really racist past and that black people vote in the Dem primaries?
 
This anti-free trade stuff has been really academic bullshit that has had no political consequences for a while now because no voter has given a shit about trade in decades. No one is ever going to be anti free trade again after inflation tears through the savings of the retired after Trump's trade trade either.

OLD PEOPLE VOTE MORE.

This focus on free trade feels more like people are trying to pump up their pet issue because now it's in the spotlight instead of talking about stuff that would be useful politically or economically.
 
The article's pretty enlightening, and has some much more concrete numbers on what happened in NC. Basically, flipped union voters from Trump to Obama (after they probably voted for Clinton and GWB as well), and young black turnout was really bad (ages 40 and below)

Interesting point though, in that it may indicate we have a turnout problem rather than a policy problem
A bit late here, but the key union voters that we needed to win didn't go for GWB, at least in big enough numbers for Hillary to have won, since Gore and Kerry held WI/MI/PA (though WI was reaaaally close for Kerry). You can even see these voters if you look at the Feingold/Johnson map Feingold wins the traditionally rural blue counties (or at least outperforms Clinton in them) that Obama also won. It just wasn't by large enough margins since Johnson attached himself to Trump to peel those off and then get carried to the finish line by suburbanites.
 
If you follow the normal cyclical nature of the US economy, we are due for at least a market crash around June/July of this year.

I'm kind of hoping the market crash (I agree that one should be expected in the next year or two) holds off till 2018 so that it has a stronger effect on mid-term voting.

It's actually something I had been concerned about if Hillary had won.
 
This is a terrible way of trying to predict a recession.

It's also hideously unlikely. Free reign is about to be given to financial markets to do whatever the fuck they want. They usually go up in that time, before the inevitable horrible crash X years later.

Could go either way, but Donald's tentacles are going to take a while to strangle things IMO.
 
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