ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Is there any chance this is upheld as legal by the courts?
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PoliGAF 2016 |OT16| Unpresidented
- Thread starter ItWasMeantToBe19
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Is there any chance this is upheld as legal by the courts?
Oh wow. Although that's cool and all, can't the legislature override this?
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Does the governor of North Carolina actually have the power to do this via executive order?
whyamihere
Banned
Relevant:
‏@Taniel
This will go to court as Cooper challenges law that restricts this. Will the fact that Dems just took control of state Supreme Court matter?
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
This reminds me of a new blog I found, which gave its Joe Lieberman award to Tim Kaine talking about a similar phenomenon.
http://www.ginandtacos.com/2017/01/02/2016-lieberman-award-winner-tim-kaine/
Oh and horseshoe theory is total shit.
Ooh, interesting. Thank god Dems control the courts in NC at least.
Also, I just found out that Republicans in the senate voted to repeal Obamacare yesterday? Why bother? Why not wait for Trump to get in?
Posting that blog without the context of its background is pretty misleading, because with the context of its background, you know not to take it seriously.
And of course you'd think it's shit if you're one of those extremists, you're not going to see that your desire for echo chambers is just the mirror image of the other side's.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
Huh? He's kind of silly but he means all of it.
Am I an extremist? I caucused and voted for Clinton and think Jill Stein is a moron, I just don't think socialists and fascists are the same.
SerAardvark
Member
Comparing Kaine to 90s centrist Democrats is nonsense for many reasons, and if you think turning your back on people like Kaine because they don't fit the profile of the perfect liberal/progressive is going to benefit the Democratic Party, I don't know what to say.
People who spend their lives opposing the death penalty, serving as civil rights lawyers and promoting spending on education and mental health care (after the VaTech shooting, notably) aren't close to Republicans at all. Even stuff like his personal objection to abortion is countered by his refusal to let that get in the way of his support for reproductive rights.
People who spend their lives opposing the death penalty, serving as civil rights lawyers and promoting spending on education and mental health care (after the VaTech shooting, notably) aren't close to Republicans at all. Even stuff like his personal objection to abortion is countered by his refusal to let that get in the way of his support for reproductive rights.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
What is the legal argument that Cooper can expand Medicaid?
Yes, he means all of it.
That doesn't matter. If you're walking around parading communist imagery on your website, you aren't actually interested in getting Democrats elected. You're interested in promoting your warped vision of reality.
They end up behaving the same way. Dissent is squashed, authoritarianism reigns, etc. It's not an accident that hyperleft wing groups and far right ones both whine when things aren't a protective echo chamber.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
It's more about "how much they screwed things up this year, for instance LOTY in 2008 was Norm Coleman.
He's really not? It's a jokey image of communist propaganda with gin and tacos photshopped in and he's not even a socialist, just a liberal.
If you think that the way to electoral success is purging the center, you're an ideologue, no matter what the ideology is.
The idea that Clinton lost because "she didn't go far left enough" is completely insane.
Box of Kittens
Banned
Frankly, it is not a very good analysis of Clinton era Democrats either. I have my criticisms of the Clinton administration, but this is just such a simplistic view as to be pretty much useless.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
This is why the Republican Party has been crushed electorally at every level since the Tea Party became a thing!
Horseshoe theory is shit because the center is constantly shifting so there's no golden mean that ever exists because moving to the center changes where the center already is. Once, liberalism was a crazy extremist ideology and only stopped being so after most of the world's major powers became liberal democracies.
What is with this insane idea that Horseshoe Theory has anything to do with the center that you and others keep spouting off?
It's completely about the extreme ends behaving in identical fashion. The center isn't what we're discussing- moderate Ds/Rs clearly don't behave the same way.
Since it seems somewhat relevant to the discussion, this article I came across does a good job talking about "loss of the center", the rise of white nationalism, how its expressed around the world, why things are the same/different in the US and some of the things we can do to counteract it.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
Horseshoe theory is all about worshiping the center as superior to extremes. It paints both sides as the same and declares that the best results come from the mean of their ideas, but that doesn't make sense because the center changes constantly and shifts around on different issues. The Missouri Compromise was the center option for the "radical" idea of opposing slavery.
Dominican Power
Member
It's always been like that since LBJ signed the Civil Rights/Voting Act bill.
smokeandmirrors
Banned
SOMEONE CALL MCCARTHY QUICK
If horseshoe theory is just about "people on both sides become more violent as they become more radicalized regardless of direction" well then sure that's possible. But that assumes that all violence is morally reprehensible on an equal level and it lumps together a bunch of different people who might be violent for different reasons.
I find that it's usually just used to say "socialists are just as bad as fascists" without taking nuance into account. You can have very good socialists and very bad socialists and both can be "extreme" compared to liberals. But you can only have bad fascists.
I find that it's usually just used to say "socialists are just as bad as fascists" without taking nuance into account. You can have very good socialists and very bad socialists and both can be "extreme" compared to liberals. But you can only have bad fascists.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Its not just about violence, although that's part of it. Certainly violent uprising of slaves against slaveholders is not comparable to a violent state of oppression
Its more that the radical left and the radical right seem to share traits common among all strains of fanaticism, including hostility towards dissenting information and an inclination towards populism (which I and others hold is fundamentally dangerous). What disconcerts me about a lot of the "far left" I'm seeing right now is that I suspect a lot of them could go in for a "benevolent dictator" if they promised the right things
Black Lives Matter is not the end of the horseshoe. Glenn Greenwald is
TestOfTide
Banned
Show me where the horseshoe theory says the bolded.
Fact is, we see the far left (Green Party, HAHA Goodman, Glen Greenwald, etc.) and the deplorables both:
- constantly defend Russia and Wikileaks
- push isolationist trade policy
- shittalk NATO and EU while (ironically) claiming that liberals/democrats want WW3
- attack perfectly fine sources as "Mainstream Media Elite Establishment Working for Special Interests and Globalists"
- praise bullshit sources like breitbart as "real news"
- claim that the whole system is "rigged" for "the establishment"
Why are you assuming that BLM is the far end? In the horseshoe theory the far end would be Stokely Carmichael not BLM.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Write, centrist New York writers hate Bill de Blasio so much that they want Hillary to primary him and are writing fanfiction about it.
Come on, people....
Come on, people....
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
I think it's a bit hypocritical to complain about extremists having echo chambers when most of the Bernie people here got chased out over the course of the primary.
And anyways, who are the far left? We have a few socialists around here, none of which I've seen pushing Breitbart or defending Russia or anything, but their political goals are pretty extreme. Meanwhile, I've seen plenty of liberals say "give Trump a chance" after the election. Are liberals the same as fascists?
The point of "horseshoe theory" is "extremes bad, center good". Whatever the center is is what the person thinks is the best view of government. Like, if I think social democracy is the ideal because it's an in-between stage of socialism and libertarianism. Or if you think libertarianism is ideal because it's between communism and fascism. It says less about the ideologies it's critiquing and more about the person proposing it.
And anyways, who are the far left? We have a few socialists around here, none of which I've seen pushing Breitbart or defending Russia or anything, but their political goals are pretty extreme. Meanwhile, I've seen plenty of liberals say "give Trump a chance" after the election. Are liberals the same as fascists?
adamsappel
Member
Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice?
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!
The bolded is NOT true. It means that the far left and far right are both trash. It doesn't mean that the regular left and regular right are both the same. It just means that going to the extreme is bad, regardless of why you're going to the extreme.
Both Nazis and far lefties want echo chambers. In both cases, it's a very bad idea to give them what they want.
This idea that the "center" is a goal is a concept completely of your own making.
Box of Kittens
Banned
I'm pretty sure thinking Glenn Greenwald and Jill Stein doesn't make one some sort of knee-jerk centrist.
TestOfTide
Banned
Most of the people who got "chased out" of this forum got chased out because they were being intellectually dishonest assholes who couldn't back up their claims with real sources.
So basically you are creating straw men of what you think the horseshoe theory is, such as claiming the horseshoe theory treats communism and fascism as two ends of the spectrum (which makes no sense because the opposite of communism is radical libertarianism not fascism).
I TOLD YOU WHO THE FAR LEFT IS.
And no, we DO have the far left on this forum defending Russia CONSTANTLY, claiming that "bringing up Russia is just liberals deflecting blame from Hillary" and calling Wikileaks "a respectable organization that exposed how the primaries were RIGGED".
And no, liberals have NOT been saying "give Trump a chance". they have been saying shit like "#Resistance".
sturgboski
Member
Maddow when full on with Trump and his lies. Basically saying flat out "either the President elect thinks we are all stupid or didnt realize the document would be released today." She then basically said to not believe a word he says, as this is irrefutable proof is a liar, until he corrects his statement and tells the truth.
Abinash117
Member
I think they won't do a full repeal, it'll be partial one. It is much more easier for them to do that. There won't be a full repeal in anytime soon, and there won't be a replacement plan either.
The problem with this is that you're cherry picking who counts as the far left so that you can equate it with the far right. That's not to say that there aren't people like that (obviously there are a bunch) but according to horseshoe theory the further left I go then I must become more amenable to those positions. But maybe there are people on the far left who don't subscribe to some of those, or all of those. Where has Bernie been defending Russia and Wikileaks, or talking bad about NATO, or praising Breitbart? Or is he not far left enough? Chomsky is in favor of globalization. Anarchists will have completely different opinions from everyone else and each other on each of those issues. And there are genuine criticisms that can be levied against capitalist media and the Democratic Party, which certainly does favor more moderate candidates for obvious reasons.
I'm far left, do I seem like I fit those bullet points?
Communism is radical libertarianism.
Tell that to Hillary heyoooo
I hope Beto O'Rourke succeeds. His past arrests shouldn't be a huge hit against him. I'm more concerned about the El Paso VA. It continuously ranks extremely low which is embarrassing given the size of Ft. Bliss. He's been pushing for improvements and I think the success of that will be key.
But outside of that I'm just glad he is the Congressman. I agree with him on most things. He's also voiced his support for legalization of marijuana which would help him younger voters. I appreciate that he's continuously supported pretty bleak efforts to turn some land at the base of the mountains into a national monument to preserve some of the nature in the area instead of the cookie cutter strip malls and Border Patrol expansion that would likely go up. It just feels like he makes a concerted effort to stay in touch with the region despite the fact that we voted for Hillary by a larger percentage than we did Obama so he wasn't exactly in any danger of losing his seat.
But outside of that I'm just glad he is the Congressman. I agree with him on most things. He's also voiced his support for legalization of marijuana which would help him younger voters. I appreciate that he's continuously supported pretty bleak efforts to turn some land at the base of the mountains into a national monument to preserve some of the nature in the area instead of the cookie cutter strip malls and Border Patrol expansion that would likely go up. It just feels like he makes a concerted effort to stay in touch with the region despite the fact that we voted for Hillary by a larger percentage than we did Obama so he wasn't exactly in any danger of losing his seat.
whyamihere
Banned
Also he's hot.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
Alternatively, they were tired of the constant talk about how terrible Sanders was and criticisms of Hillary were good? I mean, people gave him endless shit of the "unqualified" thing even though she pulled the same shit on Obama.
Go google "horseshoe theory" and every serious image for like the first two rows will end with either anarchism or communism on one side and fascism on the other lol
What sphagnum said, but like, I'm a socialist and I'm mostly pro globalization and pro NATO and anti Russia.
smokeandmirrors
Banned
*fist bump*
TestOfTide
Banned
Show me where the horseshoe theory states that you will find equal numbers of people on each end.
First off, Bernie WAS pushing a bunch of antiestablishment BS during the primaries.
Second, Bernie isn't nearly as far left as people like Glen or the Green Party. Bernie actually has to work in the government, so he knows firsthand why certain far-left ideas are bullshit.
Chomsky wanted Hillary to win. When I say "far left" I'm talking about the nut-cases who blame everything on "neoliberalism". Chomsky has some issues with moderates but he doesn't claim that everything is the fault of the democrats.
Are you INVITING me to go through your post history?
Some of them maybe, but most either came to their senses and realized the only two options, or ran away to r/politics to complain about "both sides" or just straight up turn into Trump supporters.
Here's the first thing I found when googling it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory
Here's the results from the image search: https://www.google.com/search?q=hor...hK_RAhWly4MKHdiKBAsQ_AUICCgB&biw=1264&bih=751
Most of them don't use the labels "communism" and "fascism".
If you weren't defending Russia and Wikileaks, then you were the exception. Most of the far left on neogaf has been using this election as an excuse to advocate turning the Democratic Party into the Bernie Sanders party.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
Bernie probably privately believes that private ownership of capital is a bad thing, which is much more radical than anything Jill Stein campaigned on.
Why does he not count as far-left?
Also this is my whole point that a shifting center makes differentiating between extremes pointless. Drop FDR in 1800 and he will be absurdly far to the left of (probably) everyone in existence. This wouldn't make New Deal liberalism any more or less good.
Why does he not count as far-left?
Also this is my whole point that a shifting center makes differentiating between extremes pointless. Drop FDR in 1800 and he will be absurdly far to the left of (probably) everyone in existence. This wouldn't make New Deal liberalism any more or less good.
This explains why you're both mad at something that acknowledges that leftism inevitably descends into authoritarianism.
smokeandmirrors
Banned
whatever helps you sleep at night. in the end we're right and you're wrong. :^)
TestOfTide
Banned
Privately as in you have no evidence he actually believes in full on communism?
Bernie believes in heavily regulated capitalism like most liberals and progressives.
And I'm not talking about the politicians of the past, I am talking about TODAY. TODAY the Green Party has become just as deplorable as the Trump campaign, with the only difference being the number of supporters.
And YOUR political experience is .....WHAT...... exactly?
smokeandmirrors
Banned
oh cool a purity test!
TestOfTide
Banned
Nope not a purity test. This is me asking what experience you have that shows you actually know what wins elections.
Posting on a forum don't mean shit. Let me know when you have experience working for an actual campaign.
smokeandmirrors
Banned
who the fuck said anything about winning elections. especially in a tongue and cheek comment? christ all mighty.
Because Bernie didn't wast everyone's time running as a third party candidate. Jill Stein did and look where she got! I think she almost made it over the 1% mark! Maybe next election she'll double her votes.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
I had an internship working with local Democrats in an incredibly red state over the last election and will probably be pretty involved with them until I graduate. I'm also in the middle of getting my Bachelor's in polisci.
Horseshoe theory is still bad.
Horseshoe theory is still bad.
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