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[metalslimer]

The 2008 primary got nasty on a personal level which was fixable because it meant that the candidates really didn't like each other at the time. This cycle got nasty on a policy level which is much harder to fix. I still don't think the primary had an influence. I would have loved to see more debates and someone like Biden in them. While I don't think Bernie would have won I don't want to see us only do a few debates. In that respect I understand why it felt like a coronation.

Still I think Hilary ran an excellent primary campaign.

 

[Debirudog]

Yeah, that worked out great this time.

There's no question HRC was qualified, but I think the Democratic leaders were blind by their friendly relationship to realize how much her baggage dragged her down. I don't think they have the best judgment.

It became too much of an echo chamber. They even didn't consider Bill Clinton's opinion of listening to the rural white folk because he's too old or some shit.

 

[lastflowers]

This might be a good article to read about the dynamic of Obama > Trump voters



Also this

Or maybe this:
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/11/donald-trump-election-polls-whites-working-class/

But no, as was bought up months ago...jacobin is a garbage magazine.

 

[effzee]

I hate the whole process.

There should be rules. You can only start campaigning the year of the election, debates need to be closer to election day, and they need to be more content driven.

All and every question should be about policy and the media needs to drop this both sides nonsense and call out, with facts, candidates and their surrogates for lying.

 

[Suikoguy]

I guess it should really depend on your bench tho. You got a big bench you'll need more debates.

I do like the grill session tho.

That's a good point, I don't know of any way to narrow the candidates down a bit faster... hmm..

Debates with 12 people are even more useless, lol. As we in the GOP primary. It was all about making a highlight, and nothing else.

 

[jtb]

How about this: just do a fucking national primary. I know there are a million reasons why this can't be done and is a terrible idea and the money and everything. I get it, I don't care.

Fuck Iowa. I mean Texas was closer than Iowa this election for christ's sake.

 

[CygnusXS]

Yeah, that worked out great this time.

There's no question HRC was qualified, but I think the Democratic leaders were blind by their friendly relationship to realize how much her baggage dragged her down. I don't think they have the best judgment.

It's really hard to grasp just how many people are willing to believe that a perfectly competent person like Clinton is actually a literal demon.

 

[Frank the Great]

If Bernie won the nomination, he definitely would have gotten the minority vote. Hillary and Obama would have rallied behind him, and he would have been running against an open racist. Minority voters are fucking solid, I have full faith that they can see the forest from the trees and they would have shown up. It's white voters who are fickle at best and idiots at worst.

I was an enormous Hillary supporter and I used to bash Sanders. I was wrong. Next primary election, I am not going to support who I think is most qualified or even the person who I agree with the most. I'm going to support the most likeable/relatable candidate, period.

That's the last I'll say on the subject of Bernie. Just wanted to get my regret off my chest.

 

[pigeon]

Yeah, that worked out great this time.

There's no question HRC was qualified, but I think the Democratic leaders were blind by their friendly relationship to realize how much her baggage dragged her down. I don't think they have the best judgment.

I think most candidate would not do as well against the concerted efforts of two state apparatuses as to win the popular vote by a wide margin and lose by 1% in three states.

I understand that the rapidly forming narrative, especially among the Busters who sat on their hands during a presidential campaign against a white nationalist (but would now like me to trust them that if they seize the Democratic Party they would certainly keep it intersectional and work to protect the rights of minorities), ignores the events that actually took place during the election. It is not that easy for me to edit my memory.

 

[thehypocrite]

I think more debates can be good. Foster competition and harness it. This is USA after all. People will tune in to watch a good contest.

 

[mackaveli]

For Democrats:

The one thing Hillary and Bernie (after the primary, DNC, and campaigning) and Obama have done when in defeat is swallow their pride. Obama is probably the most choked about this and then Hillary next but they have said Trump is the president and time to unite which they should. However, I am not saying we have to accept it and not protest or voice our concerns etc.,

What I am saying though is if Hillary, Bernie, and Obama can move forward in the name of country and leave their pride at the door because I am sure Obama wants to let out his rage or displeasure and the same with Hillary but they know that they have to keep it together for the good of the country. In saying that, when it is time to vote, you shouldn't protest vote, or not vote at all. You check the Democrat box no matter what. Even if it hurts, even if it makes you sick, even if you want to let out a scream, at the end of it you should check your pride at the door and vote Democrat. Instead of for the good of country it should be for the good of the party. It might not be the best choice but to enable progress and to protect the progress before you it has to be done. Obama knows if he does not act the way he is acting that it would not be good for the country so he sucks it up. Same should be applied at the party level.

Republicans have this down pat. They stuck with party more so then the Democrats this election even though you were hearing rumblings that they would cross over more then the Democrats. Perhaps this misguidance swayed Hillary in campaigning to court their votes because she thought she had the backing of the Democrats. Big mistake on her part as we now know she should have courted more democrats then Republicans. It was actually more Democrats switching to Republican. Could you believe that.

Democrats have to stop the fighting amongst each other. We can have civil discussions on what direction the party should go. Healthy debate is great. But it should never be a I'll stand up and take the ball home attitude if I don't get my way. Look at the primary process. I wanted Hillary to win no matter what and I was some what upset Bernie was not conceding but Obama said it right, should just play itself out. It's good to be prepared and have a debate. It's healthy. What's not healthy is having a selection process and then at the end if your candidate failed to win to have a take it or leave it attitude. This will only hurt the party and progress going forward. We need all participants. It made the DNC platform the most progressive platform and had both sides of the Democrats talk about it and come to a conclusion on what is the best platform to put forward. However, the supporters may not have united like Bernie and Hillary did and wanted. We can see that as a result of this election.

If you are a Democrat at the end of the day when it comes time to buckle up and vote swallow your pride and vote Democrat. You may not like it but you can always fight the next battle and make sure your voice and displeasure with whatever you thought was wrong and seek change.

That's my rant,

Edit - obviously if the candidate is Trump then you can protest as much as you want. That's an anomaly and probably would never happen under the DNC. One could only hope.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Yeah, that worked out great this time.

There's no question HRC was qualified, but I think the Democratic leaders were blind by their friendly relationship to realize how much her baggage dragged her down. I don't think they have the best judgment.

I also don't think anyone predicted the insane shit that happened with Wikileaks and Russia and the FBI

 

[jtb]

Bernie would have had the minority vote margins, but would he have had the turnout? That's where Obama really ran up the score.

Also, HRC, by all accounts, did a very succesful job activating and mobilizing the latino vote too. Not just AAs to consider. Would Bernie have been effective at mobilizing that voting bloc that wasn't already fully activated?

 

[watershed]

If Bernie won the nomination, he definitely would have gotten the minority vote. Hillary and Obama would have rallied behind him, and he would have been running against an open racist. Minority voters are fucking solid, I have full faith that they can see the forest from the trees and they would have shown up. It's white voters who are fickle at best and idiots at worst.

I was an enormous Hillary supporter and I used to bash Sanders. I was wrong. Next primary election, I am not going to support who I think is most qualified or even the person who I agree with the most. I'm going to support the most likeable/relatable candidate, period.

That's the last I'll say on the subject of Bernie. Just wanted to get my regret off my chest.

If this wasn't true for Hillary why would this have been true for Bernie who did worse than Hillary with all POC and seemed genuinely less well-versed in their concerns and less interested in speaking directly to their issues with meaningful outreach?

I think Bernie would have done worse with POC than Hillary did.

 

[thehypocrite]

Debates are really bullshit anymore.

Someone floated the idea of having a couple hour long grill session by someone. Delve into policy and plans a bit more. You can't do shit in 3 minutes at a debate.

You can do this in addition to debates. Also, no live audiences in the debates.

 

[Ether_Snake]

If this wasn't true for Hillary why would this have been true for Bernie who did worse than Hillary with all POC and seemed genuinely less well-versed in their concerns and less interested in speaking directly to their issues with meaningful outreach?

I think Bernie would have done worse with POC than Hillary did.

That assumption is based on how he was doing against Hillary. If he got the nom, things would have been different afterwards. People need to stop thinking how things were at that time and think everything would have remained frozen till november 8th. If you're fighting for poor people you're fighting for minorities. And the election would have been all about actual economic policies, which it wasn't with Hillary and her emails and foundation, it was a turkey shoot for Trump, we heard more about his policies than Hillary.

 

[Crocodile]

If Bernie won the nomination, he definitely would have gotten the minority vote. Hillary and Obama would have rallied behind him, and he would have been running against an open racist. Minority voters are fucking solid, I have full faith that they can see the forest from the trees and they would have shown up. It's white voters who are fickle at best and idiots at worst.

I was an enormous Hillary supporter and I used to bash Sanders. I was wrong. Next primary election, I am not going to support who I think is most qualified or even the person who I agree with the most. I'm going to support the most likeable/relatable candidate, period.

That's the last I'll say on the subject of Bernie. Just wanted to get my regret off my chest.

I'm slightly bothered by the "understood" assumption we would turn out after a robust surrogate operation but white liberals clearly couldn't be bothered to do so. Like I personally would turn out but its annoying I have to be part of the group "we can always count on" when its clear other groups won't step up if the same is asked of them. I know you didn't mean anything bad by your post to be clear. I also hope you understand the point I'm making too though.

That assumption is based on how he was doing against Hillary. If he got the nom, things would have been different afterwards. People need to stop thinking how things were at that time and think everything would have remained frozen till november 8th. If you're fighting for poor people you're fighting for minorities.

None of us can know this however. His stump speeches/message were unflinching consistent which is good in some regards but bad in others (expanding target audience).

 

[ampere]

Polls don't matter anymore if we've learned anything.

Polls still matter, but they aren't magic. There's an error margin, and all it takes is a few bad states to lose. I mean, she lost Michigan, Wisconsin and Penn by pretty tiny margins

The Clinton campaign stopped doing heavy polling in Michigan way too soon

 

[Sirpopopop]

Bernie would have had the minority vote margins, but would he have had the turnout? That's where Obama really ran up the score.

Also, HRC, by all accounts, did a very succesful job activating and mobilizing the latino vote too. Not just AAs to consider. Would Bernie have been effective at mobilizing that voting bloc that wasn't already fully activated?

He would not have had the minority vote margins.

Sierra Blanca.

He might have lost hispanics to Trump. Sierra Blanca is really really really really bad.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Bernie would have had the minority vote margins, but would he have had the turnout? That's where Obama really ran up the score.

Also, HRC, by all accounts, did a very succesful job activating and mobilizing the latino vote too. Not just AAs to consider. Would Bernie have been effective at mobilizing that voting bloc that wasn't already fully activated?

Anecdotal

But I would say a majority of all the Latino Millenials I know(Same age I am, we're all...Hispanic) were fucking excited for Bernie. They all became disillusioned when Hillary won.

So i would say yeah, Bernie got to latino millenials.

 

[UltimaPooh]

Polls still matter, but they aren't magic. There's an error margin, and all it takes is a few bad states to lose. I mean, she lost Michigan, Wisconsin and Penn by pretty tiny margins

The Clinton campaign stopped doing heavy polling in Michigan way too soon

I know I was being hyperbolic.

 

[lednerg]

Lednerg doesn't give a shit that minorities overwhelmingly voted for Clinton. This was of course the huge point of contention in the primaries where Bernie said some not so nice things about the south where black people finally get their say.

Like I've moved past it because he put in some great work and worked his ass off in this election but I'm not going to pretend people who were complaining about the southern states having so much sway in the primaries didn't deserve my scorn.

The Democratic Party's penchant for tossing minorities around like a rag doll is disgusting. Sure, they scared them enough to cling to Hillary. Congrats to them. Just ignore how the under 40 year old minorities, the ones who are online and see what's going on, went the other way.

You're the type who can't ever fault someone John Lewis despite his despicable campaign against Julian Bond, or that stupid stunt on the Senate floor encouraging the bigoted terrorist watch list. He knew MLK, sure, yet went on to foster the same exact moderate liberalism King spoke out against.

This election season was a total wake up call for me, personally. Journalists I loved, like Joy Ann Reid, Rachel Maddow, Ezra Klein, etc, continued to prove themselves to be completely out of touch about America and its politics. They've proven to be nothing but comfortable, insulated dunces, parroting narratives fed to them by the clueless elite. They are as far away from the zeitgeist as possible. I beg of you, please quit listening to these no-nothing dipshits.

Also don't even get me started on that Markos's Netroots Nation stunt which was set up to drive minority votes away from Hillary's opponents. Fucking hell, how naive can you be to not see how contrived that shit was?

But look, let's say you've got it all right. The Democratic Party just has to keep reaching further right across the aisle, as they do, so we can finally win those racists over. Are you suggesting maybe some kind of bizarrely pseudo-racist candidate? Like Clayton Bigsby?

 

[A Human Becoming]

I think most candidate would not do as well against the concerted efforts of two state apparatuses as to win the popular vote by a wide margin and lose by 1% in three states.

I understand that the rapidly forming narrative, especially among the Busters who sat on their hands during a presidential campaign against a white nationalist (but would now like me to trust them that if they seize the Democratic Party they would certainly keep it intersectional and work to protect the rights of minorities), ignores the events that actually took place during the election. It is not that easy for me to edit my memory.

You're not wrong that Comey and Russia hurt her greatly, but you also can't ignore how effective the 20+ smear campaign by Republicans was. Looking at polls and from what I've read Hillary's loss can be contributed to a number of reasons.

 

[mackaveli]

I'm slightly bothered by the "understood" assumption we would turn out after a robust surrogate operation but white liberals clearly couldn't be bothered to do so. Like I personally would turn out but its annoying I have to be part of the group "we can always count on" when its clear other groups won't step up if the same is asked of them. I know you didn't mean anything bad by your post to be clear. I also hope you understand the point I'm making too though.

Exactly. Why is it that Bernie busters assume that all of Hillary's voters would fall in line. That minorities would just show up because if you don't Trump wins and he will then deport you. So pick our candidate or else we will stay home. You don't want that do you. Like that's a pretty poor attitude to have and I hope that in 2020 this does not happen..

 

[watershed]

That assumption is based on how he was doing against Hillary. If he got the nom, things would have been different afterwards. People need to stop thinking how things were at that time and think everything would have remained frozen till november 8th. If you're fighting for poor people you're fighting for minorities. And the election would have been all about actual economic policies, which it wasn't with Hillary and her emails and foundation, it was a turkey shoot for Trump, we heard more about his policies than Hillary.

Ok, so we are still substituting imagination for reason. We can examine Bernie's success and appeals with POC by looking at the primary and all his years in Vermont. He's not very good at it. He sees everything through an economic lens and thinks (and I think said) that he would fight racism by creating jobs. I don't want imagine what Bernie would have done in the GE because he didn't.

 

[Debirudog]

attacking civil rights champion John Lewis for gun control measures...

....

 

[Sirpopopop]

That assumption is based on how he was doing against Hillary. If he got the nom, things would have been different afterwards. People need to stop thinking how things were at that time and think everything would have remained frozen till november 8th. If you're fighting for poor people you're fighting for minorities. And the election would have been all about actual economic policies, which it wasn't with Hillary and her emails and foundation, it was a turkey shoot for Trump, we heard more about his policies than Hillary.

Sierra Blanca.

Sierra Blanca.

Sierra Blanca.

Bernie would have lost hispanics on that alone.

 

[ampere]

I know I was being hyperbolic.

Gotcha, wasn't sure. I just know that reaction will be happening genuinely with some people and I don't want us to fall into the trap

 

[A Human Becoming]

Can we please stop talking about what would have happened if Bernie had won? It doesn't change the results and just leads to resentment.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Can we please stop talking about what would have happened if Bernie had won? It doesn't change the results and just leads to resentment.

I think fighting against the narrative of we only lost because we didn't have Sanders is actually incredibly important moving forward...

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Sierra Blanca.

Sierra Blanca.

Sierra Blanca.

Bernie would have lost hispanics on that alone.

Just like Trump lost hispanics based on the shit he said

wait

he actually got 30% of the vote..

Saying "Sierra Blanca" as some sort of gotcha is almost as bad as Trump repeatedly saying 'Iraq War!'.

 

[pigeon]

Can we please stop talking about what would have happened if Bernie had won? It doesn't change the results and just leads to resentment.

Frankly, I would really appreciate this. The most charitable possible reading is that it's just people trying to make me do their emotional labor. The worst, from my perspective, is that they're trying to make their case for ditching people of color, as indeed people actively are doing.

 

[Frank the Great]

I'm slightly bothered by the "understood" assumption we would turn out after a robust surrogate operation but white liberals clearly couldn't be bothered to do so. Like I personally would turn out but its annoying I have to be part of the group "we can always count on" when its clear other groups won't step up if the same is asked of them. I know you didn't mean anything bad by your post to be clear. I also hope you understand the point I'm making too though.

I absolutely understand your point, and I was cognizant of it when I made my post.

My post was not based on what is fair, though. I know it isn't fair that minority voters are expected to turn out while white liberals have the luxury of being lazy, entitled, or subject to fits of racism. It fucking sucks.

But it's reality. Minority voters turned out for Hillary, and they would have turned out for Bernie. In my experience they understand the stakes more than anyone and aren't entitled enough to stay home and allow a racist to be elected just because they "don't like" the other candidate.

White voters are horrible. I say that as a white voter. It fucking sucks but the truth is that we are willing to tank an election if we don't like our choices. It's the height of privilege. That's why I think Bernie would have won; lazy entitled white liberals would have shown up, along with the solid minority voting blocs, and it would have been enough to win.

I acknowledge that it is unfair but I just honestly think that's how we could have beaten Trump. I'm sorry, I don't mean to offend in any way. I wish I could change things.

 

[Debirudog]

I like Sanders again, I do not fault him for Hillary's losses, and I want him to be an integral voice of the party. Of course, I don't agree 100 percent with him but endorsing Keith Ellison was a great move that I signed up on.


but yeah, what point is there to bring in old fights way back then just to feel good about yourself. It doesn't do jack shit.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I think the only thing talking about Sanders accomplishes, is to have people fool themselves into a 'what-if' scenario and dawdling on that what-if.

It's nice to have. But really it's unnecessary.

 

[jfkgoblue]

Exactly. Why is it that Bernie busters assume that all of Hillary's voters would fall in line. That minorities would just show up because if you don't Trump wins and he will then deport you. So pick our candidate or else we will stay home. You don't want that do you. Like that's a pretty poor attitude to have and I hope that in 2020 this does not happen..

I think he would have done better, I don't know if he would have won, however. He had some pretty broad appeal among blue collar workers, who propelled Trump to victory. The Democrats had completely taken them for granted and paid for it with President Trump.

 

[Sirpopopop]

Just like Trump lost hispanics based on the shit he said

wait

he actually got 30% of the vote..

Saying "Sierra Blanca" as some sort of gotcha is almost as bad as Trump repeatedly saying 'Iraq War!'.

Do you honestly think Hispanics would say, "Ok, the bigot is worse than the guy who wants to dump nuclear waste on us?"

They would probably say, "Both are equally shit."

That wouldn't dent Trump's Hispanic support. That would have dented the Democrats Hispanic support.

Emails were an effective scandal here. Dr. Benjamin Ghazi was an effective scandal here.

Sierra Blanca would have been a hammer on top of Bernie's far left positions.

 

[mackaveli]

I think he would have done better, I don't know if he would have won, however. He had some pretty broad appeal among blue collar workers, who propelled Trump to victory. The Democrats had completely taken them for granted and paid for it with President Trump.

I'm not arguing if he would have done better or not. I honestly think he probably would have. But that's not the point I'm trying to make. Edit - Yes Sanders would have done good among blue collar workers. But minorities everyone just assumes he would have that vote in the bag.

The point is why is it a safe assumption to say minorities would vote regardless of Hillary or Sanders because its whats best for them. But then for White liberals or progressives to say if it's not my guy well you won't have our voice. But for minorities tough luck you have to ride or die with what I say.

How is that fair is the point I'm making and Frank the Great's above post is pretty good.

Why can't minorities count on the white liberal / progressive vote to vote Democrat regardless of nominee if it is expected of minorities to vote for Democrat regardless of nominee.

 

[A Human Becoming]

I think fighting against the narrative of we only lost because we didn't have Sanders is actually incredibly important moving forward...

It's bad to simplify the results of this election in any way. It's too easy for any of us to pick out certain factors that fit our own narrative. That's why I was saying the baggage was a part of it, but not the only reason, because that would leave out other important events like Wikileaks and the FBI.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Do you honestly think Hispanics would say, "Ok, the bigot is worse than the guy who wants to dump nuclear waste on us?"

They would probably say, "Both are equally shit."

That wouldn't dent Trump's Hispanic support. That would have dented the Democrats Hispanic support.

I mean, an open racist,

Versus one of the many senators who voted on a bill. And believe it or not, the problems of Latino Hispanics in Texas(Which is red anyways) is not the problem of Hispanics elsewhere.

That's reality. Just like the problems of minorities were not the problems of the people in the Rust Belt.

This is the problem with the introspection going on. Too afraid to step on eggshells. Clinton got shit on for voting on the Iraq Vote. That affected the country. If Sanders got shit on for Sierra Blanca? That only affects Latinos in Texas.

You have to understand this. That sometimes you have to reach across different communities for different reasons. You cannot just take a blanket policy across every community thinking it affects it all the same, just like you can't expect for something that happened in one state will bog someone down across different communities in different states.

 

[excelsiorlef]

The reason I say the narrative needs to be pushed back against is that there seems to be a movement based on largely and frankly not a whole lot that Sanders is now the anointed leader of the new Democratic party, which ironically echoes the exact complaint many of them had about Clinton.

I think he is absolutely important part, 100%, but I do not believe he should be the #1 leader and frankly his judgment on who do support (outside of Ellison) hasn't exactly been stellar both in terms of results (only 1 person out of the handful of people he endorsed got elected and she was backed by almost everyone anyway) and quality (hello Tim Canova).

 

[jfkgoblue]

I'm not arguing if he would have done better or not. I honestly think he probably would have. But that's not the point I'm trying to make. Edit - Yes Sanders would have done good among blue collar workers. But minorities everyone just assumes he would have that vote in the bag.

The point is why is it a safe assumption to say minorities would vote regardless of Hillary or Sanders because its whats best for them. But then for White liberals or progressives to say if it's not my guy well you won't have our voice. But for minorities tough luck you have to ride or die with what I say.

How is that fair is the point I'm making and Frank the Great's above post is pretty good.

Why can't minorities count on the white liberal / progressive vote to vote Democrat regardless of nominee if it is expected of minorities to vote for Democrat regardless of nominee.

Yeah. Minorities will always vote democrat.

All this what if is unhelpful going foward however.

 

[Gruco]

Just like Trump lost hispanics based on the shit he said

wait

he actually got 30% of the vote..

Saying "Sierra Blanca" as some sort of gotcha is almost as bad as Trump repeatedly saying 'Iraq War!'.

Latino decisions has been disputing this number aggressively.

 

[mackaveli]

Yeah. Minorities will always vote democrat.

All this what if is unhelpful going foward however.

I don't get your last sentence?

 

[jfkgoblue]

I don't get your last sentence?

Just saying that saying "what if Bernie ran" is not helpful for what Dems are going to do now.

Democrats are staring at a potential Republican supermajority in 2018, and this arguing amongst themselves and finger pointing is not going help prevent that.

 

[RDreamer]

Thought you guys might find this Wisconsin data I found from someone on twitter quite interesting:

From that same guy:

rural vote in WI per exits (27% of the vote Tues):
2000: Bush by 10
2004: Bush by 9
2008: Obama by 9
2012: Romney by 7
2016: Trump by 29

WI prez shifts
counties in:
big metros: +5 Dem 2012/ +5 Dem 2016
small metros: +13 Dem '12/ +6 Dem '16
non metro: even '12/ +19 Rep '16

people with qualms about both voted Trump in WI. he got 72% of those said neither has pres. temperament, 63% of those said neither qualified

Trump ends in WI with almost exactly same no. of votes as Romney in 2012: 1.4m+
Clinton vote (1.38m) falls well short of Obama '12 (1.62m)

Trump victory map in WI basically the victory map for Scott Walker in 2010. both won 59 of 72 counties. 57 of 59 carried by both men.

in the WI exits, Trump was viewed unfavorably by 63% of voters, but he won 21% of those voters who don't like him.
viewed another way, 28% of Trump voters in WI have unfavorable opinion of Trump, per exits. 11% of clinton voters have unfav view of Clinton

(there are a few more interesting maps, so go to his twitter if you want)

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Latino decisions has been disputing this number aggressively.

Hrm, true enough. Just like the polls HRCs campaign got, I wonder if people just lied saying they were hispanic?

So much goddamn fuckery. I don't think we'll ever get a clear picture on what happened with the data-gatherers.

 

[RastaMentality]

Do you honestly think Hispanics would say, "Ok, the bigot is worse than the guy who wants to dump nuclear waste on us?"

They would probably say, "Both are equally shit."

That wouldn't dent Trump's Hispanic support. That would have dented the Democrats Hispanic support.

Emails were an effective scandal here. Dr. Benjamin Ghazi was an effective scandal here.

Sierra Blanca would have been a hammer on top of Bernie's far left positions.

It would've been his own superpredator moment.

 

[mackaveli]

Just saying that saying "what if Bernie ran" is not helpful for what Dems are going to do now.

Democrats are staring at a potential Republican supermajority in 2018, and this arguing amongst themselves and finger pointing is not going help prevent that.

Agreed. But we should have civil discussions of what went wrong to improve. But we shouldn't also overthink it too much though.

 

[Sirpopopop]

I mean, an open racist,

Versus one of the many senators who voted on a bill. And believe it or not, the problems of Latino Hispanics in Texas(Which is red anyways) is not the problem of Hispanics elsewhere.

That's reality. Just like the problems of minorities were not the problems of the people in the Rust Belt.

This is the problem with the introspection going on. Too afraid to step on eggshells. Clinton got shit on for voting on the Iraq Vote. That affected the country. If Sanders got shit on for Sierra Blanca? That only affects Latinos in Texas.

You have to understand this. That sometimes you have to reach across different communities for different reasons. You cannot just take a blanket policy across every community thinking it affects it all the same, just like you can't expect for something that happened in one state will bog someone down across different communities in different states.

A. That was waste from Vermont. Bernie Sanders' home state. Hell yeah, he needs to take more responsibility for it. The Texas delegation wrote him a letter. He ignored it.
B. It's insulting to say that only Latinos in Texas would be mad about Bernie shitting on their community. It's like saying the only Latinos who were going to be mad about Trump's wall were illegal immigrants. It's like saying that the only people who were offended by his comments about Judge Gonzalo Curiel was Judge Curiel.

You have to understand this. People can be offended about things that happened in communities other than their own, and cities/states that aren't their own. You can't just assume that Bernie Sanders will get the benefit of the doubt, just like you can't expect that people won't get offended by statements affecting their community even if they are in a different circumstance than the people in question.