blackaroni
Member
So votes don't matter now? It sucks that he's basically saying this to get more money out of his supporters.
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PoliGAF 2016 |OT3| You know what they say about big Michigans - big Florida
- Thread starter Spoiled Milk
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So votes don't matter now? It sucks that he's basically saying this to get more money out of his supporters.
superdeluxe
Member
It feels like Sanders does not have control of the people that work for him.
excelsiorlef
Member
Lol. Shocking.
Not really. This is the campaign that stole data and then made themselves out to be the victim.
This is totally a strategy that won't backfire. It's totally not filled with insane amounts of hypocrisy.
Well, so much for dying quietly in the night. Weaver and Devine remain utter morons.
This may not be directly from Sanders but his campaign is doing him no favors here. Count your losses here and just move on.
Well, there was a report yesterday that he is a bit of a micromanager and signs off on everything coming out of his campaign...
benicillin
Banned
Fucking Tad strikes again.
Black Mamba
Member
So yesterday I was somewhere where I got to talk to some California Trump supporters. I didn't try to convince them on policy much, but what I learned from them was pretty disheartening.
For one, they were utterly convinced Hispanics would vote for Trump. They cited two border towns in Texas that went for Trump. Literally. I tried to explain to them that Trump has a shit standing among Hispanics and all minorities, but no go.
For another, they tried to argue with me that Obama is far more liberal than JFK. I was perplexed by this. Literally the only evidence given by them was the Cuban Missile Crisis (I am still just as confused). When I pressed for domestic arguments, they returned to the Cuban Missile Crisis (sigh). When I brought up Medicare, it was passed aside.
And then, of course, we actually came to agreement on policy on healthcare. We all agreed a fundamental problem is the lobbyists and that regardless of what we think of the ACA, the current system is not ideal. These guys were not standard orthodoxy Republicans on Health Care. One, in fact, was a doctor. He said he's totally down for paying more taxes to get everyone great health care. He believes everyone should have coverage and believes insurance companies and hospitals are the major problem. He tried to describe the system he sort of wants and it wasn't a bad plan, but I asked him how we get to that point. Like, I'm not arguing against the merits of your system but how to you accomplish putting it in place. His answer was almost literally "Trump will will it." I asked how Trump can do this when the President is actually kind of weak domestically and Congress writes laws and he basically said Trump is so strong that he will force them. I countered with lobbyists and the desire to stay at their position and how it's the same issue Sanders has but he was steadfast.
I then countered by arguing if the President is so strong, why has Obama struggled so mightily since 2010 to get anything through Congress? Their responses were Obama has been super strong, citing the ACA, so which I pointed out that was pre 2010. I asked for the last 6 years and they laughed. I then asked why, if you're correct, that Obama has struggled with Gitmo, VRA, Min wage, Jobs act, budget deals, and now SCOTUS, etc? I asked what major legislative accomplishment has he done since the GOP took over. none was given. I asked why Trump would be any different. Because he just will.
I was told that they watch Fox News and I watch liberal CNN, which I told them I despise CNN (true) and watch more Fox than them (also true!).
We then got into a discussion about Kasich, who I claimed isn't as moderate as he claims to be. When I pressed them on his moderate stances, I was asked to provide how he's conservative. So I did. I mentioned how his tax plans, abortion access, immigration stances, etc are pretty much in line with standard GOP conservative orthodoxy, to which the only reply I got was "What to you mean denying access to abortion," at which case I had to explain what was going on in Texas to their surprise.
Mind you, these are not conservative republicans in the normal sense. They're pro-choice, pro-affirmative action, believe we must do something about climate change, pro-same-sex marriage, etc.
The two of them disagreed on immigration. One was totally about closing the borders and deporting because they're costing us billions and are criminals (i countered with data and was laughed at for using statistics or i think told the stats were impossible to gather because illegals never report themselves). The other wants to also close the borders but a path to legal residency here for whoever is currently here. They then explained some bizarre plan of tracking everybody which seemed like fantasy to me but whatever.
What I gathered from them is this: America is in a shitty state of existence. We're worse off than when Bush left office. Obama is a super liberal and Trump is very moderate. Our international policy is worse than it has ever been. The left has become extreme and right has not moved in years (lol?). Trump can get things done and will do everything that's best for America. Oh, and Trump will win easily against Hillary. Just you wait and see!
It was my first encounter with Trump supporters in Los Angeles.
It's scary to see the beliefs people can have that are so far from reality. When asked to defend the position, none is really given or it is deflected. Not to toot my own horn, but they have no idea how to confront someone like me that is armed with data and fact, not just opinion. They just...brush it all aside.
It was a friendly conversation. And these were most certainly not racist Trump supporters and yet I feel like had they been, I would have been more at ease.
Just wanted to share what I discussed with some folks last night. So yeah.
For one, they were utterly convinced Hispanics would vote for Trump. They cited two border towns in Texas that went for Trump. Literally. I tried to explain to them that Trump has a shit standing among Hispanics and all minorities, but no go.
For another, they tried to argue with me that Obama is far more liberal than JFK. I was perplexed by this. Literally the only evidence given by them was the Cuban Missile Crisis (I am still just as confused). When I pressed for domestic arguments, they returned to the Cuban Missile Crisis (sigh). When I brought up Medicare, it was passed aside.
And then, of course, we actually came to agreement on policy on healthcare. We all agreed a fundamental problem is the lobbyists and that regardless of what we think of the ACA, the current system is not ideal. These guys were not standard orthodoxy Republicans on Health Care. One, in fact, was a doctor. He said he's totally down for paying more taxes to get everyone great health care. He believes everyone should have coverage and believes insurance companies and hospitals are the major problem. He tried to describe the system he sort of wants and it wasn't a bad plan, but I asked him how we get to that point. Like, I'm not arguing against the merits of your system but how to you accomplish putting it in place. His answer was almost literally "Trump will will it." I asked how Trump can do this when the President is actually kind of weak domestically and Congress writes laws and he basically said Trump is so strong that he will force them. I countered with lobbyists and the desire to stay at their position and how it's the same issue Sanders has but he was steadfast.
I then countered by arguing if the President is so strong, why has Obama struggled so mightily since 2010 to get anything through Congress? Their responses were Obama has been super strong, citing the ACA, so which I pointed out that was pre 2010. I asked for the last 6 years and they laughed. I then asked why, if you're correct, that Obama has struggled with Gitmo, VRA, Min wage, Jobs act, budget deals, and now SCOTUS, etc? I asked what major legislative accomplishment has he done since the GOP took over. none was given. I asked why Trump would be any different. Because he just will.
I was told that they watch Fox News and I watch liberal CNN, which I told them I despise CNN (true) and watch more Fox than them (also true!).
We then got into a discussion about Kasich, who I claimed isn't as moderate as he claims to be. When I pressed them on his moderate stances, I was asked to provide how he's conservative. So I did. I mentioned how his tax plans, abortion access, immigration stances, etc are pretty much in line with standard GOP conservative orthodoxy, to which the only reply I got was "What to you mean denying access to abortion," at which case I had to explain what was going on in Texas to their surprise.
Mind you, these are not conservative republicans in the normal sense. They're pro-choice, pro-affirmative action, believe we must do something about climate change, pro-same-sex marriage, etc.
The two of them disagreed on immigration. One was totally about closing the borders and deporting because they're costing us billions and are criminals (i countered with data and was laughed at for using statistics or i think told the stats were impossible to gather because illegals never report themselves). The other wants to also close the borders but a path to legal residency here for whoever is currently here. They then explained some bizarre plan of tracking everybody which seemed like fantasy to me but whatever.
What I gathered from them is this: America is in a shitty state of existence. We're worse off than when Bush left office. Obama is a super liberal and Trump is very moderate. Our international policy is worse than it has ever been. The left has become extreme and right has not moved in years (lol?). Trump can get things done and will do everything that's best for America. Oh, and Trump will win easily against Hillary. Just you wait and see!
It was my first encounter with Trump supporters in Los Angeles.
It's scary to see the beliefs people can have that are so far from reality. When asked to defend the position, none is really given or it is deflected. Not to toot my own horn, but they have no idea how to confront someone like me that is armed with data and fact, not just opinion. They just...brush it all aside.
It was a friendly conversation. And these were most certainly not racist Trump supporters and yet I feel like had they been, I would have been more at ease.
Just wanted to share what I discussed with some folks last night. So yeah.
Not sure if this has been posted. Cross posting from the Garland thread in OT.
Meet Merrick Garland, President Obama's Nominee to the Supreme Court.
Meet Merrick Garland, President Obama's Nominee to the Supreme Court.
politics will probably only turn more emotive as media becomes more dominated by twitter/memes/instagram/soundbites
started with obama. now we have bernie and donald. only gonna head more in that direction over time imo.
The Bernie team knows damn well that they're not going to win the nomination. They're just trying to keep the contributions coming in so that they can keep their Ben Carsonesque gravy train rolling. They must be making a fortune. It's one big ponzi scheme, just like I said it was months ago.
Bernie is the new Madoff.
Bernie is the new Madoff.
QuiteWhittle
Member
Glad Sanders isn't following the lead of some of his supporters regarding Garland.
My feed went super quiet except for one post.
That post's comments split evenly among these positions:
1) Bernie put up a good fight, but it's over. We should move on and support Hillary in defeating Trump.
2) I wish I could vote for Trump, but I can't. Hopefully there's a better Republican in 2020 so I can keep Hillary to one term.
3) Trump all the way! I'd rather see the country burn than have Hillary. And yes, I'm in a privileged position to think something like that, but everyone getting fucked by Trump will somehow be worth it in the long run.
What a clusterfuck.
My admiration for Pelosi and Reid has skyrocketed in the past few weeks. McConnell can't control his relatively tame/uniform senate caucus at all while Pelosi was able to brute-force the ACA through the house by the slimmest of margins.
Now that's strong leadership.
whew
It is terrible in Missouri. I got dog piled because I said I was happy Hillary won and was asked why minorities keep screwing themselves over (I'm not a minority though I am gay). I know people are passionate and upset but I hope this sort of thing ends soon, hopefully before the GE.
Black Mamba
Member
Yes, which is really sad. It's makes it very difficult to have productive discussions.
edit: That said, what perplexed me most was from what I could stake out about most of their personal positions, Trump is completely the wrong candidate for them. It's...weird.
It's kind of cult-like.
JesseEwiak
Member
I mean, Nancy Pelosi killed Dubya's SS privatization plan in the womb by making sure it got no bipartisan cred. Pelosi & Reid, when dealing with the curve that there's no pork barrels to give out anymore are two of the most effective Congressional leaders in history.
Abinash117
Member
So the campaign might try to convince pledged delegates to go for Bernie down the road perhaps?
It really is no point in having a debate like that, just give them information and have them do what they want with it or let them face reality. If you already know they going to be wrong most likely, no reason to change their view because it doesn't matter what they think if they turn out to be wrong.
It really is no point in having a debate like that, just give them information and have them do what they want with it or let them face reality. If you already know they going to be wrong most likely, no reason to change their view because it doesn't matter what they think if they turn out to be wrong.
I guess. Weaver and Devine will say and do anything to get Bernie elected. Oh the irony.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
good luck with that
metalslimer
Member
Sanders campaign cannot be serious right now. We're going to have to go through months of this?
shinra-bansho
Member
Tad Devine keeping up his streak.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
only half of the states voted, the establishment wants to keep people from voting!!!!!!
BotoxAgent
Member
I get the feeling that they will just annoy these delegates even more and nothing will change except make those delegates dig their heels in deeper for Hillary
ugaboga232
Member
Thought this is a decent post that is increasingly relevant in the highly polarized political world: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anything-except-the-outgroup/
Even within the blue group we are seeing a hillary and bernie camp arise.
Even within the blue group we are seeing a hillary and bernie camp arise.
On one hand early reports state Bernie is very hands on... but I never believed that for a second. I agree with the ponzi scheme but not for Bernie, this is purely a policitcal monster done by his closest campaign managers, weaver and devine are still there after its all over, short of quitting campaigning he can't get rid of them at this point. They have been poison since the start, there is a reason Hilary didn't take them on for her campaign.
Also this whole pledged delegate stuff that is cropping up today feels like something the Ron Paul campaign was hoping for back in 2012. His campaign filled with a bunch of those holdovers too?
SenorArdilla
Member
Is Merrick Garland being sent out to die?
ugaboga232
Member
I wonder how well bernie would have done with hillary's campaign and hillary with his. What does poligaf think?
excelsiorlef
Member
Bernie's no compromise + perennial campaign staff losers seems like a very fun recipe /s
NihonTiger90
Member
Interesting that Trump won the parts of OH that border Pennsylvania
Said it earlier in the thread, but Kasich ran weaker numbers in Appalachia against FitzGerald in 2014 than he did in other Republican-leaning parts of the State. It's not his stronghold here.
Nikki Haley, Brian Sandoval, Ted Cruz, Paul Ryan, and I don't know, Matt Bevin and Scott Walker part 2? Charlie Baker?
darkside31337
Tomodachi wa Mahou
Maybe but I'm sure he realizes this is his only chance of getting onto the court. Even a minuscule one is better than zero. He has to be thinking theres at least some kind of shot Republicans change their mind if the tide is rolling for the Democrats as we approach the election.
Also convinced the Sanders campaign is beginning an intentional implosion on their own campaign to get folks supporting him to naturally swing over to Hillary. Theres no other explanation for the stuff coming out today.
Aaron Strife
Banned
Kos isn't a big fan of Garland just because he feels it's Obama capitulating but I can't really see how.
Yeah in his 60s he's not likely to be on the Court for 30 years or whatever, but that really seems like the only drawback.
Kos says it's because the GOP has indicated they'd appoint him in a lame duck session over a more liberal Hillary appointee, but it seems to me like they're just saying that to save face and everyone is calling them out on it.
If Grassley is meeting with him I think this might actually go through.
Yeah in his 60s he's not likely to be on the Court for 30 years or whatever, but that really seems like the only drawback.
Kos says it's because the GOP has indicated they'd appoint him in a lame duck session over a more liberal Hillary appointee, but it seems to me like they're just saying that to save face and everyone is calling them out on it.
If Grassley is meeting with him I think this might actually go through.
Bernie needed someone to tell him to go as hard as possible from the start of the race.
He came across too weak and passive imo. Unwilling to get his hands dirty, and when it comes to swaying moderates I can't imagine anything worse. An unflinching ideologue without the pugnaciousness necessary to make his dreams a reality.
He came across too weak and passive imo. Unwilling to get his hands dirty, and when it comes to swaying moderates I can't imagine anything worse. An unflinching ideologue without the pugnaciousness necessary to make his dreams a reality.
Honestly, I'm fine with Bernie staying in provided he stops attacking Hillary.
Every campaign has to come to an end in its own way especially when it is a campaign like Sanders that has massive grassroots support. If they want to be delusional about delegates and superdelegates, that's fine. Just stop smearing Hillary and dragging her through the mud. Sanders and his supporters will come around to the reality of the situation on their own while Hillary just needs to keep campaigning and focus on the general.
Every campaign has to come to an end in its own way especially when it is a campaign like Sanders that has massive grassroots support. If they want to be delusional about delegates and superdelegates, that's fine. Just stop smearing Hillary and dragging her through the mud. Sanders and his supporters will come around to the reality of the situation on their own while Hillary just needs to keep campaigning and focus on the general.
The problem is that would have killed a large part of his appeal for a lot of people. He would have just been another politician if he had gotten his hands dirty and started hitting Clinton earlier. His support wouldn't have grown nearly as much and guys like O'Malley would have had an opportunity to capitalize on it.
Agreed. So long as he takes his foot off the gas when it comes to the attacks he can stay in all he wants. All I care about is a Dem in the White House to protect Obama's legacy.
NullPointer
Member
It looks like he is getting more desperate, even in his stump speech after his big loss, he was still on the negative campaign train vs Hillary.
Macho Madness
Member
Bernie is losing because he didn't try to court the Obama coalition
And because Hillary did, she is the much stronger general election candidate.
That was linked to me and it made a lot of sense. And it was written before any votes had been cast.
And because Hillary did, she is the much stronger general election candidate.
That was linked to me and it made a lot of sense. And it was written before any votes had been cast.
Nah. Obama's offering the GOP one last chance to act rational before Trump takes over.
I think he would've been fine. Look at trump's appeal. A large part of it is because he's telling people what they want to hear (same as Bernie), and the rest is the bombastic and soundbite friendly nature of his public speeches/delivery.
Bernie was kinda similar, but he was too late in realizing that he was starting behind against Hillary. He needed to be on the full offensive from the outset. You can't win an election as an underdog if you aren't in the game to fight hard.
Why does Bernie have so many idiots running his campaign : /
"Delegate math doesn't matter" are you kidding me
Wow, is this actually maybe possibly going to happen?
If Obama gets this done after all the bickering those clowns put up...
"Delegate math doesn't matter" are you kidding me
Wow, is this actually maybe possibly going to happen?
If Obama gets this done after all the bickering those clowns put up...
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