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PoliGAF 2016 |OT6| Delete your accounts

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The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Got this RTed on my timeline, and it seems to sum up the situation pretty well given the polling data we're seeing:

There's definitely been some of this going on also. Some of my other progressive friends and I haven't wanted to talk politics, but I tweeted some pro-HRC stuff the other night and a few people liked it and I had sort of an "oh good...Jake and I agree on this" moment
 
I think you're creating an ideal image for the man. He doesn't owe the party that allowed him to run on their infrastructure anything? He was helped and mostly treated with respect from day 1. They could have buried him last year and he would have been a smaller Ron Paul.

They pretty much just ignored him.

And no, I'm not idealizing him. I think he's flawed, like... you know... everyone. He was really hoping that he could fight for the issues AND be President. He really wanted both of those things.

It hasn't fully sunk in yet that he can't have both... or he's trying to save face given that he has been saying he would fight all the way to the convention and doesn't want to seem like he's quitting. But when he can no longer fight for both... I'm sure he'll go back to fighting for the issues and I'm sure his ego would rather have him be a key part of that, than left outside in the rain.
 
And no, I'm not idealizing him.
Well, one can either idealise him as some sort of crusader who fought on despite losing months ago.
Or denigrate him as an idiot who didn't realise he lost months ago.
In both scenarios he lost months ago and has had months to let it sink in.

Or take the middle-ground reality that the thrill of the crowd is hard to give up. That it's fun to meet the Pope. And have a bunch of college kids hang off your every word and give you their lunch money so you can fly around the country.
 

CrazyDude

Member
Bullshit. If Romney couldn't get enough white voters to overcome Hispanic and black voters in Florida in 2012, there's no way Trump will get enough to overcome them.

And PA: lol.

PA has not gone republican in a presidential election since 1988, but someone it's always considered a swing states.
 
Trump isn't winning PA, sorry

Bullshit. If Romney couldn't get enough white voters to overcome Hispanic and black voters in Florida in 2012, there's no way Trump will get enough to overcome them.

And PA: lol.

I think the analysis from Nate Cohn is pretty interesting. It seems like exits underestimated white voter turnout and also how much Obama won among them.

This is good news for Trump for sure.

I also think that current polling is underestimating Latino turnout though. We saw California polling was a big miss due to that too.

We also saw during primary how Clinton did in Ohio, Dems have a bigger white working class base than pundits have thought about these past 4 years.
 
I haven't looked at the California polling, but I'd assume it didn't underestimate the proportion of Latino vote overall too badly, so much as it got the demographics within the Latino sample horribly off.
 
Got this RTed on my timeline, and it seems to sum up the situation pretty well given the polling data we're seeing:

I'll always remember 2004. I fell into the same trap a lot of people have fallen into now. I thought I didn't know anyone who was a Bush voter. I'd never heard anyone defend his record. I knew loads of people who actively supported Kerry, or actively decried Bush. I didn't really look at the polls of likely voters. I knew Bush had lost the popular vote in 2000.

The only difference is that When Bush won re-election in 2004, and did it with the popular vote that I didn't immediately think something was fishy. I went and looked at the polls. I asked people which way they voted. A lot of people didn't want to say. And of course they didn't. With so many people who were passionately against him, they just kept quiet, because it was the path of least resistance.

In the anonymity of the voting booth, or when being polled... they stated their preference.

I always knew we always got one vote each, but that was the night I really came to understand what the reality of that was. Someone with a slight Bush preference cancelled out someone with a massive hatred for Bush. That was the first time I saw the silent majority and got it.

I'd been wrong. I'd been foolish... and I didn't enjoy being shocked by the outcome.

So I started paying attention to what was going on. Not to what I wanted to see. Not even to what I presumed I'd see. But... which way were the winds actually blowing.

So I do have some sympathies for people who truly struggle with the results as they look around at their community and see no evidence of Clinton's support. But I also know that you can come to terms with it. If they refuse to... then that's a different matter. But just two days afterwards, I'm not going to beat up too hard on my friends who are saying things like 'I can't believe California is that into Clinton, something else must be going on'.

If I ever catch myself writing a sentence like that... and it does occasionally happen, I know now to stop myself, and take a hard look at why I am saying that I 'can't' accept something could be true. Usually I realize I've made some logical error along the way.
 

ampere

Member
Trump is doing really poorly with white women compared to Romney, so even though he's getting more white men it's a wash overall.

And he does worse with people of color

PA has not gone republican in a presidential election since 1988, but someone it's always considered a swing states.

The "Pennslytucky" area that makes up the space between Pittsburgh and Philly is probably why people think it can be a swing state.
 

studyguy

Member
Trump is doing really poorly with white women compared to Romney, so even though he's getting more white men it's a wash overall.

And he does worse with people of color

Aye, the white vote includes women which he has been floundering with hard. The graph a while back showed him even with white women with Clinton whereas Bams lost them handily. There's no path for him other than to find more white dudes to vote for him.

A great, common-sense graph on California that showed up on FB:

wat
 
PA has not gone republican in a presidential election since 1988, but someone it's always considered a swing states.

It will be until Polls show Clinton leading by +5 or more. It was close than NV, NH, Iowa last time around I believe.

I think the current polls should determine whether a state is a swing state or not.
 
I could understand both Obama and Hilary having hurt feelings after 2008 and I could understand disappointment for Bernie, but I don't know how his feelings could be hurt when no one even touched him
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
I could understand both Obama and Hilary having hurt feelings after 2008 and I could understand disappointment for Bernie, but I don't know how his feelings could be hurt when no one even touched him

Apparently he took her hit on gun control as a personal attack.

So, Obama was apparently actually planned to be out on the campaign trail in like April.
What a mess.

Goddamn it Bernie.
 

studyguy

Member
Lol that politico story about sanders supporters warning Obama not to try and stop him. Yeah, he totally agreed to a meeting that Sanders requested so he could do just that.
 
I could understand both Obama and Hilary having hurt feelings after 2008 and I could understand disappointment for Bernie, but I don't know how his feelings could be hurt when no one even touched him

The Sanders supporters I talk to think Hillary and surrogates went hard negative against him, before he did.

I do not understand that.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
The Sanders supporters I talk to think Hillary and surrogates went hard negative against him, before he did.

I do not understand that.

That's just crazy talk. Next time they bring it up ask them if they've ever heard of Sierra Blanca. If she wanted to go hard against him she'd have hit him with that and ended it in one punch.
 
The "Pennslytucky" area that makes up the space between Pittsburgh and Philly is probably why people think it can be a swing state.

But that area isn't where the people are. Having a spread out population helps with Congressional races but the urban areas have too much influence state-wide.
 
Well, one can either idealise him as some sort of crusader who fought on despite losing months ago.
Or denigrate him as an idiot who didn't realise he lost months ago.
In both scenarios he lost months ago and has had months to let it sink in.

Or take the middle-ground reality that the thrill of the crowd is hard to give up. That it's fun to meet the Pope. And have a bunch of college kids hang off your every word and give you their lunch money so you can fly around the country.

I am taking that middle ground.

Sanders truly wants to make a difference on all those issues. He also wants to be President really badly. He thought he could do both of those things. Now he's being forced to come to terms with the fact that the President thing isn't going to happen. He's not ready to give that up just yet, whether to save face or because he still things he can make it happen... I can only guess his motives.

But it will be completely out of his reach at some point in the near future. The same ego that makes him really want to be President is going to want to be credited for making a difference. He's not going to want Clinton and the Democrats to get all that credit, so I'm confident he will join the fight.

He's been ducking reality for a while now. There are lots of reasons why he might have been doing it. Really hoping for something can tie you up into all sorts of knots that blind you to the truth of things. We're all susceptible to that to varying degrees.
 

bananas

Banned
For Bernie-of-Bust voters who are going to vote for Trump, isn't the whole point behind Bernie-or-Bust that you're, ya know, only going to vote for Bernie or not at all?
 
The Sanders supporters I talk to think Hillary and surrogates went hard negative against him, before he did.

I do not understand that.

Yeah I see the same thing.

With my friends it was Clinton talking about his vote protecting gun companies from law suits like the Sandy Hook one. That comment about how he was failing those families or whatever it was.

They think that was the first time anyone crossed the line, because she invoked Sandy Hook. You can't tell them that the lawsuit was already in the news, and that's why she mentioned Sandy Hook with reference to his vote protecting gun manufacturers from law suits.

You can't tell them that it's just a mirror of Sander's criticisms of specific votes Clinton made.

Clinton dared to criticize Bernie and he doesn't deserve to be criticized like Clinton does, and who is Clinton really anyway?

You know?

For Bernie-of-Bust voters who are going to vote for Trump, isn't the whole point behind Bernie-or-Bust that you're, ya know, only going to vote for Bernie or not at all?

No. For those specific voters the point is, that if they can't have Bernie, they want the country to go bust instead... and that won't happen under Clinton. The bust is literal for some Bernie or bust types. They think the system is so broken that they'd rather see Trump obliterate it, leaving a giant hole in the ground from which we can start over, than see Clinton leave it mostly as is.
 

thebloo

Member
If you stack the Supreme Court with judges that will overturn Citizen's United, then you can (eventually) get rid of Super PACs and go back to the $2700 limit per individual being the most anyone can give to a campaign. I believe you could still give $2700 to every race in the country if you were rich enough, but it's not as powerful or flexible as a Super PAC.

But how do you stop people spending money on related stuff? Like the example I gave of holding rallies on your dime and simply "inviting" a candidate to speak?
 
But how do you stop people spending money on related stuff? Like the example I gave of holding rallies on your dime and simply "inviting" a candidate to speak?

Getting rid of Super PACs won't solve the issue of money in politics, but Super PACs made that problem even worse. So we should still get rid of them, even if it isn't a magic bullet.

The key issue with Super PACs is that they're dark money and you literally don't know where it's coming from. It removes any transparency with regards to knowing WHO is pumping in all the money, which before super PACs we had a much better understanding of. Politicians were being bought and sold, but at least we knew who to.

If you hold a rally on your dime and invite the candidate to speak at it... we'll know who you are. That's the distinction.
 
Bullshit. If Romney couldn't get enough white voters to overcome Hispanic and black voters in Florida in 2012, there's no way Trump will get enough to overcome them.

And PA: lol.
You think Romney hit peak white voters? C'mon.
I'm assuming, hypothetically that if Kasich was the nominee you think he couldn't win PA either?

rasnmussen is a joke of a poller

Let's give Rasmussen the benefit of the doubt for this election cycle. At least for the time being.

Wow Rasmussen..

National:
Clinton 42% (+4)
Trump 38%

A 3 point shift towards Clinton in a week
That doesn't include a 3rd party candidate.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
But how do you stop people spending money on related stuff? Like the example I gave of holding rallies on your dime and simply "inviting" a candidate to speak?
Yeah I think the reality is you're better off requiring disclosures and full transparency than trying to wall off the money entirely, just because there were so many loopholes even before Citizens made it ludicrous.

the other side of the coin is drastically shortening election times so they aren't as expensive and thus reduce the incentive for this funding.
 

pigeon

Banned
Speaking of the 2000s, a decade so terrible there isn't even a useful abbreviation for it, one thing that the Bernie folks remind me of right now is the intense conviction, which I still see in my peer group, that Bush must have stolen the elections in 2000 and 2004 with Diebold's voting machines.

I find it a little embarrassing how many otherwise pretty rational people are still completely convinced that this national fraud happened and all the evidence was perfectly suppressed, because they can't believe that people would just vote for George W. Bush.

The Bernie people aren't so different from us!
 

pompidu

Member
That's just crazy talk. Next time they bring it up ask them if they've ever heard of Sierra Blanca. If she wanted to go hard against him she'd have hit him with that and ended it in one punch.

She should bring that up and then ask bernie why her husband signed that bill into law.
 
You think Romney hit peak white voters? C'mon.
I'm assuming, hypothetically that if Kasich was the nominee you think he couldn't win PA either?



Let's give Rasmussen the benefit of the doubt for this election cycle. At least for the time being.


That doesn't include a 3rd party candidate.

It doesn't need to in order for it to indicate a shift back towards Clinton.

Rasmussen are still showing Republican candidates doing much better than other polls. So I'm not going to give them the benefit of the doubt. It still appears that they have a republican bias. If when the results come in, they turn out to have been right... they'll get the benefit of the doubt *next* time they make a prediction.

But it sure looks like they're making the same mistake last time, since they continue to put out polls that show much more republican support than average of all the polls.
 

thebloo

Member
Getting rid of Super PACs won't solve the issue of money in politics, but Super PACs made that problem even worse. So we should still get rid of them, even if it isn't a magic bullet.

The key issue with Super PACs is that they're dark money and you literally don't know where it's coming from. It removes any transparency with regards to knowing WHO is pumping in all the money, which before super PACs we had a much better understanding of. Politicians were being bought and sold, but at least we knew who to.

If you hold a rally on your dime and invite the candidate to speak at it... we'll know who you are. That's the distinction.

Yeah I think the reality is you're better off requiring disclosures and full transparency than trying to wall off the money entirely, just because there were so many loopholes even before Citizens made it ludicrous.

the other side of the coin is drastically shortening election times so they aren't as expensive and thus reduce the incentive for this funding.

Thanks for the answers. I agree that transparency would help more than outlawing what is in the end a sort of freedom to campaign for whoever you want.
 
Speaking of the 2000s, a decade so terrible there isn't even a useful abbreviation for it, one thing that the Bernie folks remind me of right now is the intense conviction, which I still see in my peer group, that Bush must have stolen the elections in 2000 and 2004 with Diebold's voting machines.

I find it a little embarrassing how many otherwise pretty rational people are still completely convinced that this national fraud happened and all the evidence was perfectly suppressed, because they can't believe that people would just vote for George W. Bush.

The Bernie people aren't so different from us!

Right. I was *clearly* wrong in 2004 to think Bush would lose.

So many people seem more worried about never having been wrong in the past, than they are worried about actually being accurate here in the present. It's far more important that they defend their record on Bush losing 2004 than it is that they figure out how they were so wrong about it, and try to learn not to make those same mistakes going forwards.
 
It doesn't need to in order for it to indicate a shift back towards Clinton.

Rasmussen are still showing Republican candidates doing much better than other polls. So I'm not going to give them the benefit of the doubt. It still appears that they have a republican bias. If when the results come in, they turn out to have been right... they'll get the benefit of the doubt *next* time they make a prediction.

But it sure looks like they're making the same mistake last time, since they continue to put out polls that show much more republican support than average of all the polls.

I haven't looked at other Rasmussen polls this cycle, but their GE H2H haven't been outliers. So far.
 
Speaking of the 2000s, a decade so terrible there isn't even a useful abbreviation for it, one thing that the Bernie folks remind me of right now is the intense conviction, which I still see in my peer group, that Bush must have stolen the elections in 2000 and 2004 with Diebold's voting machines.

I find it a little embarrassing how many otherwise pretty rational people are still completely convinced that this national fraud happened and all the evidence was perfectly suppressed, because they can't believe that people would just vote for George W. Bush.

The Bernie people aren't so different from us!

Yeah, to be honest while there was the fuckery going on in 2000 2004 makes complete sense the further you get away from it and realize we were only 3 years off of 9/11. 2000 should have also never been that close to begin with considering Clinton was still so popular. I was too young to really follow politics, but looking back man we put up some stinkers with Kerry and Gore. It makes me laugh that people think Clinton is some historically bad candidate.
 
Trump has gone racist too early, he needs to lay low and keep his racist after July.

I don't want the GOP to kick him out at the Convention.

the last thing we need is the GOP picking a Kasich or a Rubio at the Convention and dumping Trump. I know that Rubio is a robot but I fear that he could actually win.

I don't wish the GOP well, I don't want the GOP to be successful. Trump's job is to set back the GOP for 4 more years

I am hyper partisan. I wish nothing but misery for the GOP.




Hillary 2016!
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
gutter_trash, I disagree.
Them changing their minds and electing someone else at this point would be an epic disaster up and down ticket. They won't do it.

When Cruz suspended, that was it. There was no going back.
 
Speaking of the 2000s, a decade so terrible there isn't even a useful abbreviation for it, one thing that the Bernie folks remind me of right now is the intense conviction, which I still see in my peer group, that Bush must have stolen the elections in 2000 and 2004 with Diebold's voting machines.

I find it a little embarrassing how many otherwise pretty rational people are still completely convinced that this national fraud happened and all the evidence was perfectly suppressed, because they can't believe that people would just vote for George W. Bush.

The Bernie people aren't so different from us!
This is the biggest problem I'm seeing with the young left and a lot of Bernie supporters. They literally lack the ability to understand (I'm not saying agree) that someone might not hold their views on college, foreign policy, health care.

They KNOW they are right and everyone agrees with them so when they face the reality that they're wrong they tend to come up with all these reasons why they're actually not: rigging, media blackout, slander, stupid.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Trump has gone racist too early, he needs to lay low and keep his racist after July.

I don't want the GOP to kick him out at the Convention.

the last thing we need is the GOP picking a Kasich or a Rubio at the Convention and dumping Trump. I know that Rubio is a robot but I fear that he could actually win.

If the GOP did that, it would just split the right's vote. Trump would absolutely run third party just to stick it to them.
 
gutter_trash, I disagree.
Them changing their minds and electing someone else at this point would be an epic disaster up and down ticket. They won't do it.

When Cruz suspended, that was it. There was no going back.

If polls end of June show a big gap (7-10 points), you can bet they will take away the nomination.


If the GOP did that, it would just split the right's vote. Trump would absolutely run third party just to stick it to them.
He has no cash to run 3rd party.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
If polls end of June show a big gap (7-10 points), you can bet they will take away the nomination.

I'm not sure what the next level up from Dumpster Fire is, but we will find out in such a case.
 
gutter_trash, I disagree.
Them changing their minds and electing someone else at this point would be an epic disaster up and down ticket. They won't do it.

When Cruz suspended, that was it. There was no going back.

I firmly believe that a Rubio reboot in July would be a massive threat
 

Emarv

Member
If any of you guys are interested, Rep. Xavier Becerra is on this week's Buzzfeed No One Knows Anything political podcast. Dude is very articulate and reasonable on what's going on with the progressive movement.
 
This is the biggest problem I'm seeing with the young left and a lot of Bernie supporters. They literally lack the ability to understand (I'm not saying agree) that someone might not hold their views on college, foreign policy, health care.

They KNOW they are right and everyone agrees with them so when they face the reality that they're wrong they tend to come up with all these reasons why they're actually not: rigging, media blackout, slander, stupid.

Yeah, it's why I think Obama is completely right on never shutting people out who disagree with you. It's why I think Bernie's campaign message of a rigged system against the people is dangerous. Instead of inspiring people to change the system to work for them, it just breeds animosity. And if the system is completely rigged, if we just blow it up and start over it will be better for people.
 
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