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PoliGAF 2016 |OT6| Delete your accounts

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C

Crayons

Banned
I don't think she's Queen of the gays. I can think of a bunch of politicians who supported gay marriage far sooner than she did
 
C

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
Crocodile said:
I'm not exactly sure how they've over-relied on demographics. The Democratic party, for all its warts, is the only party that is actively trying via its messaging and its policy to appeal to and understand the needs of people of color, the LGBT community, women, etc. If nobody speaks for these groups they will be trampled. Clinton won because she was able to get those groups on board as well as plenty of the "white liberal" vote. Her coalition in this primary was stronger and more expansive.

I don't necessarily disagree that pushing a positive economic message harder would be a good thing in case the GOP ever figures out how to not actively shit on people of color (and also just for the good of the country) but that's never going to change the fact that many (most?) people of color don't recognize economics as their primary barrier in life or at least know from history and life experience that any "economics-first" message and policy agenda isn't good enough for them. Sanders and Clinton clearly already agree on a lot. The areas of disagreement aside from messaging that I see, and most of the electorate that rejected him see, are in spots where his ideas are either too far left, lack nuance and/or have no actual chance of passing. I don't see how that's a bad thing. I don't think a Democratic candidate/president/agenda should antagonize "white liberals" or disrespect them or openly shit on them but I will hold their feet to the fire if I ever feel they are ignoring the needs or life experiences of people like me. Furthermore, too many "liberals" or "progressives" have shown their asses to me for me to not want and need to call that out. Again, Obama might be hand-tied from saying enough as president but that doesn't mean others should stay silent.
Click to expand...

I guess I'm more cynical about how much of the policy proposals Clinton and the Democrats have been saying they'll do in the run up (and will continue to do so until the general election) will be remotely a priority once she does get into office. I guess I'm assuming that the Dems will do to those groups what Bush did to conservative christians did in 2000; promise them the world, use them to get into office, and do jack shit, while blaming the opposition for "stopping them" as long as they can get away with it. I am reasonably sure her coalition in 2016 is not more expansive than Obama's coalition in 2008; and if it is, I suspect a lot more has to do with Trump/Cruz being on the other side during the run-up rather than facing a GOP that had won up to 40% of the Latino vote with GWB in the previous elections.

I agree on the liberals / progressives showing their asses bit, and I am hopeful that people will call Clinton out if she does what I think she will do when she is elected and sort of just give a lot of minority friendly policies lip service (she'll propose them, they'll get shot down in Congress, and then she'll drop it and blame Congress). But with the balkanization of discourse and parties in general, I am worried that "holding feet to the fire" quickly turns into "they're completely useless and I hate them and etc etc". Look at how many folks turned on Obama for not getting everything done he had hoped for. A lot of the Clinton and Sanders voters in 2016 were pretty "Obama sucks for not being the chosen one" between 2010 and 2014. I guess this is part of my general soapbox of people just self-selecting themselves into echo chambers and then believing their own shit doesn't stink after being there for a bit.

It's why as someone who is pretty meh on Clinton (the war-hawkishness, especially after the NYT expose on Libya / Syria, is unbelievably frightening to me, and almost a flat out dis-qualifier), still posts in Hillary-GAF, despite y'all's best effort to run Sanders folks (though I sort of think the entire free college thing is a terrible idea, so I guess I might not really qualify as a Sanders person) off. :p I need to be challenged and called out for the stupid shit I often think and etc etc. It's kinda like the "violence is OK against Trump" thread over in OT - there are people in there who are legitimately OK with actual, honest to god violent political terrorism, because it's the other side / have been echo-chambered into believing that their own oppression justifies violence / etc. The echo-chamber / self-righteousness has really terrifying consequences in a two party system, and I fear we are starting to see the effects on the Democrat side. (the GOP is already dealing with the consequences, thanks talk radio!)
 
S

studyguy

Member
Crayons said:
I don't think she's Queen of the gays. I can think of a bunch of politicians who supported gay marriage far sooner than she did
Click to expand...

I dunno, even anecdotally there was an enormous contingent of gay/trans groups all with matching shirts at that giant ass concert/rally I went to. If she's not the queen then she's certainly well represented among them nonetheless.
 
C

Crayons

Banned
studyguy said:
I dunno, even anecdotally there was an enormous contingent of gay/trans groups all with matching shirts at that giant ass concert/rally I went to. If she's not the queen then she's certainly well represented among them nonetheless.
Click to expand...

No I totally get that she has a gay following but there's lots of pop stars who do too and they haven't done anything for LGBT people...
 
B

Boke1879

Member
HylianTom said:
To his credit, he has an article out about how no "true" Sanders supporter can vote for Donald Trump. That's a step.
Click to expand...

I've slowly starting seeing Sanders supporters on my twitter coming to terms. Give it a month and they'll be fully on board with stopping Trump.

I expect Sanders when he does bow out to specially point out that Trump can no be President and that you should vote for Clinton.
 
B

Brinbe

Member
Dick Morris already doing work for Trump lol
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/06/dick-morris-in-talks-to-join-the-trump-campaign.html

fnc-hannity-20121105-morrismap.jpg
 
S

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Crayons said:
No I totally get that she has a gay following but there's lots of pop stars who do too and they haven't done anything for LGBT people...
Click to expand...

I'd elevate someone to that status regardless of their past positions if they have put forth the effort to show they mean it. So far Hillary has to a good degree, especially as SoS.

Then again, I don't tend to use much of that Jargon, but I do understand why some people may view her that way.
 
C

Cipherr

Member
balladofwindfishes said:
Holy crap, r/sanderfourpresident is exploding. They're turning on each other, arguing constantly with each other, accusing anyone and everyone as trolls, and panicking like I've never seen. Anyone who doesn't truly believe Bernie will be the candidate is a paid shill. That's a new level.

This has to be the worst day ever for them. They're confused, upset and some seem genuinely scared. They're so far down the hole, they can't get out and this leaves them in a really bad place.
Click to expand...

What a trainwreck. They are even throwing Bernie under the bus lmao:

CUI3ZXN.png
Click to expand...
 
C

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
HylianTom said:
To his credit, he has an article out about how no "true" Sanders supporter can vote for Donald Trump. That's a step.
Click to expand...

It's slowly happening...

Boke1879 said:
I've slowly starting seeing Sanders supporters on my twitter coming to terms. Give it a month and they'll be fully on board with stopping Trump.

I expect Sanders when he does bow out to specially point out that Trump can no be President and that you should vote for Clinton.
Click to expand...

Took Clinton supporters months (IIRC) even after Clinton's speech to fully come on board. Losing sucks.
 
I

itschris

Member
P

plagiarize

Banned
I was out doing a torch relay for the MA special Olympics so I missed most of everything.
shameless self plug

I love that Obama video, naturally. I love Clinton's twitter for the last 48 hours.

I'm over Bernie not officially announcing he's dropping out until shortly after Tuesday, because it's clearly obvious that he's agreed to do just that when meeting with Obama today. Most of his supporters will join us. The ones that don't... I don't know that they'd ever have voted Clinton even if Sanders had never been in the picture.
 
C

Crayons

Banned
Suikoguy said:
I'd elevate someone to that status regardless of their past positions if they have put forth the effort to show they mean it. So far Hillary has to a good degree, especially as SoS.
Click to expand...

Yeah, you're right. She has fought for LGBT rights. But I don't see her as a "gay icon" imo. Not to me, anyway.
 
B

Brinbe

Member
Probably already posted, but one more small slice of HAlarity.

People say H. A. Goodman is biased, but when one of the most respected publications in America ignores pledged delegate count (with a candidate still facing an FBI probe), an overt bias is legitimized as fact. True, most observers view Clinton to either be too powerful, or simply a target of GOP attacks, but an FBI criminal investigation used to be horrible for presidential campaigns.
Click to expand...

Sad end for the true believers.
 
I

Iolo

Member
balladofwindfishes said:
Holy crap, r/sanderfourpresident is exploding. They're turning on each other, arguing constantly with each other, accusing anyone and everyone as trolls, and panicking like I've never seen. Anyone who doesn't truly believe Bernie will be the candidate is a paid shill. That's a new level.

This has to be the worst day ever for them. They're confused, upset and some seem genuinely scared. They're so far down the hole, they can't get out and this leaves them in a really bad place.

I know it must feel terrible to work really hard for something for a year, put in time and money and dedicate so much of your life, only to not have it work out in the end. And to have it all collapse on one day, while everyone else around you celebrates, must just be an extra bit of sting.

It's gross to see the green party taking advantage of them in their time of grief.
Click to expand...

Well ACTUALLY, there is an "Obama endorses Clinton" mega thread in which the posters are being ... reasonable? I had to check which subreddit I was on repeatedly after reading some of the comments there. It's like a bunch a people who abandoned the board over the last few months came back to counter the crazy.
 
C

Crocodile

Member
Cybit said:
I guess I'm more cynical about how much of the policy proposals Clinton and the Democrats have been saying they'll do in the run up (and will continue to do so until the general election) will be remotely a priority once she does get into office. I guess I'm assuming that the Dems will do to those groups what Bush did to conservative christians did in 2000; promise them the world, use them to get into office, and do jack shit, while blaming the opposition for "stopping them" as long as they can get away with it. I am reasonably sure her coalition in 2016 is not more expansive than Obama's coalition in 2008; and if it is, I suspect a lot more has to do with Trump/Cruz being on the other side during the run-up rather than facing a GOP that had won up to 40% of the Latino vote with GWB in the previous elections.

I agree on the liberals / progressives showing their asses bit, and I am hopeful that people will call Clinton out if she does what I think she will do when she is elected and sort of just give a lot of minority friendly policies lip service (she'll propose them, they'll get shot down in Congress, and then she'll drop it and blame Congress). But with the balkanization of discourse and parties in general, I am worried that "holding feet to the fire" quickly turns into "they're completely useless and I hate them and etc etc". Look at how many folks turned on Obama for not getting everything done he had hoped for. A lot of the Clinton and Sanders voters in 2016 were pretty "Obama sucks for not being the chosen one" between 2010 and 2014. I guess this is part of my general soapbox of people just self-selecting themselves into echo chambers and then believing their own shit doesn't stink after being there for a bit.

It's why as someone who is pretty meh on Clinton (the war-hawkishness, especially after the NYT expose on Libya / Syria, is unbelievably frightening to me, and almost a flat out dis-qualifier), still posts in Hillary-GAF, despite y'all's best effort to run Sanders folks (though I sort of think the entire free college thing is a terrible idea, so I guess I might not really qualify as a Sanders person) off. :p I need to be challenged and called out for the stupid shit I often think and etc etc. It's kinda like the "violence is OK against Trump" thread over in OT - there are people in there who are legitimately OK with actual, honest to god violent political terrorism, because it's the other side / have been echo-chambered into believing that their own oppression justifies violence / etc. The echo-chamber / self-righteousness has really terrifying consequences in a two party system, and I fear we are starting to see the effects on the Democrat side. (the GOP is already dealing with the consequences, thanks talk radio!)
Click to expand...

A) I think there's an argument to be made that Clinton's coalition is smaller because she got less votes this time around than the 2008 primary but it you look at states she won and how the demographics voted for her it pretty much maps the Obama coalition to a tee save for young people (though it was way worse with young white people). I obviously can't tell you how much of it is enthusiasm for her vs fear of the enemy (the high unfavorables don't help the conversation) but I suspect you cant' tell me either so we'd just be arguing in circles?

B) Watching what went down with the Obama presidency (the GOP obstruction, the failure of the Obama coalition to show up in midterms, etc.) was part of why I viewed what Sanders wanted to do with such skepticism. I feel Obama was failed more than he failed us. Obama BLED and expended a shit-ton of political capital to get the ACA through and I'm supposed to believe Sanders, with a fraction of the capital or charisma of Obama and as someone who seems adverse to compromise, is going to force single payer through? And get young kids to march on Congress to get laws passed? That's some unicorn bullshit. Clinton will of course be limited in what she can do depending on how the congressional races play out in the fall but I think I'll be able to tell the difference between "she actually tried but she couldn't get it done" and "she barely tried". Maybe I'm being too optimistic. That being said, nothing about Sanders' record, how he ran his campaign, etc. made me think he would be any better at trying to push legislation through. In fact they led me to believe he would be worse at it.

C) I too share you're fear about the Left becoming radicalized and I have no idea where the end game is going in that regard. I never set foot in those OT threads you mentioned but those are concerning comments you've relayed. A Green Tea Party is the last thing we need and I'm not entirely sure Sanders has been a good thing in this specific regard. That is to say I'm worried he may have encouraged it even if he didn't mean to. I'm still pissed about how that Nevada nonsense went down. I guess it will depend on how most of supporters use their political energy in the coming months/years.
 
P

Paskil

Member
I hope they bring it all home for the Green Bay rally and bring in Tammy and Russ. God, having those two as my senators would be so good.
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
Brinbe said:
Dick Morris already doing work for Trump lol
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/06/dick-morris-in-talks-to-join-the-trump-campaign.html

fnc-hannity-20121105-morrismap.jpg
Click to expand...
The fact that this wasn't called "Dick's Picks" is still the biggest disappointment in politics.

nature boy said:
Damn.
Click to expand...
Collins should just change parties already. She has no future in the GOP and I'm sure Maine Democrats are used to wacky shenanigans like this happening in their state that they wouldn't mind.
 
H

Hindl

Member
Aaron Strife said:
The fact that this wasn't called "Dick's Picks" is still the biggest disappointment in politics.


Collins should just change parties already. She has no future in the GOP and I'm sure Maine Democrats are used to wacky shenanigans like this happening in their state that they wouldn't mind.
Click to expand...

I'm not entirely sure how copyright works with the titles of news segments, but the Grateful Dead have a live compilation that's like 35+ volumes deep called Dick's Picks, so they might not be able to use the name
 
P

Poodlestrike

Banned
NYCmetsfan said:
I'm like genuinely starting to Diablos over the possibility theres an RNC coup.

He's such a mess. Even his tweets suck now. Sad!
Click to expand...

Why would that be a bad thing? Sure, Trump running will result in a landslide, but the RNC being forced to roust their presumptive nominee would be a near-unprecedented disaster. Only thing I can think of off the top of my head is Dems in '68, except accounting for information availability I can only imagine this would be WORSE.
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
whyamihere said:
It's actually split rather evenly between sapping from Trump and Clinton.
Click to expand...

From Sanders. These are the Ron Paul castoffs. They were never going to vote Hillary.

Most likely, they won't vote.

If Hillary is seriously up around 4-5 points before the Sanders supporters who aren't insane (just bitter) come into the fold, this is a really good thing going forward.

I think once August comes around, the polling will start to really matter and we'll see Hillary with a safe lead.


I actually disagreed with most of Taibbi's article today, which is a first for me. Weird.

Also, feel like Nate Cohn misinterpreted some of his data as well.
 
K

Kusagari

Member
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
Like 20% of people picking Johnson know who he is.

"Gary Johnson wants to eliminate all income taxes with a 23% sales tax." There we go, no Bernie supporters for Johnson anymore.
Click to expand...

I mean he has zero chance at reaching 15% in any poll including Jill anyway. Some of that support is clearly just people picking the not Trump/Hill option and with Jill that would be split.
 
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