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[kess]

This thread got me curious about how badly the Liberal Democrats did at the last general election and instead I came across this Cliffsnotes version of the Trump platform

Liberal Democrats are Destroying America

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Is a catch-22, tho. You gotta promisse more, for if you promisse less, then you're promissing the same as dems, so why should one vote for you?

its not a catch 22 they're dems but pretend they're not,


same as sanders rant the other day. We need to push the party.... to do things it has been trying to do for years!

 

[Iolo]

Forgot we had Cleveland favored over Golden State at the start of the season, which I thought was BS at the time:

Nate never learns.

 

[Teggy]

some fun twitter accounts for tonight

https://twitter.com/ClevelandFire

https://twitter.com/CLEpolice

Cleveland Police
29m
Cleveland Police‏ @CLEpolice
DISPELLING FALSE REPORTS OF STOLEN FIRE TRUCK. NO EMERGENCY VEHICLES HAVE BEEN STOLEN.

 

[Paskil]

Cleveland Police
29m
Cleveland Police‏ @CLEpolice
DISPELLING FALSE REPORTS OF STOLEN FIRE TRUCK. NO EMERGENCY VEHICLES HAVE BEEN STOLEN.

My brain reads this in a "We assure you" fashion. I make myself giggle a lot.

 

[Makai]

A frightening amount of Americans are anti-vaccine. I don't think representation trumps ethics.

So we just have authoritarian rule because we know better than the electorate?

 

[User 463088]

Cleveland Police
29m
Cleveland Police‏ @CLEpolice
DISPELLING FALSE REPORTS OF STOLEN FIRE TRUCK. NO EMERGENCY VEHICLES HAVE BEEN STOLEN.

Cleveland Police ‏@CLEpolice 19m19 minutes ago

See, the fire truck was not stolen. This, however, is not okay. 🚓

 

[Valhelm]

its not a catch 22 they're dems but pretend they're not,


same as sanders rant the other day. We need to push the party.... to do things it has been trying to do for years!

Nah, some of the positions that both Sanders and the Green Party hold were either rejected by the Democrats or tertiary concerns. Just look at single-payer healthcare or the $15 minimum campaign.

So we just have authoritarian rule because we know better than the electorate?

Well, that's the issue. Obviously, obfuscating democracy is unethical... but a rigged election could have prevented the Nazi Party from seizing control of Germany. The problem is determining when democracy has become so destructive that otherwise unthinkable tactics must be used. And who decides?

 

[B-Dubs]

Nah, some of the positions that both Sanders and the Green Party hold were either rejected by the Democrats or tertiary concerns. Just look at single-payer healthcare or the $15 minimum campaign.

The Dems want UHC, which doesn't need to be single player, hell most places don't use it, and the fight for $15 isn't exactly something that will get through Congress. The Dems will take it if they can get it, but they aren't going to throw away a smaller increase if it becomes available. Acting like the Dems don't want a higher minimum wage or UHC is dishonest at best.

 

[shinra-bansho]

The reason things like single payer can't be implemented are because the two parties, or in this case the Democratic Party, are already de facto coalitions as already pointed out.

Rather than trying to build up pointless third parties that will never amount to anything in a fptp system the focus should be on building the internal caucus towards a given goal.

Also non sequitur but America's youth are idiots.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

andrew cuomo passed 15 an hour.

 

[Valhelm]

The reason things like single payer can't be implemented are because the two parties, or in this case the Democratic Party, are already de facto coalitions as already pointed out.

Rather than trying to build up pointless third parties that will never amount to anything in a fptp system the focus should be on building the internal caucus towards a given goal.

But single payer isn't even party of the Democratic party line. Most Democrats aren't very left, and don't want to step on the toes of the insurance industry. A coalition system would give a much louder voice to those Democrats who do want a national health service, allowing single payer (and so many other progressive causes) to gain support.

The Dems want UHC, which doesn't need to be single player, hell most places don't use it, and the fight for $15 isn't exactly something that will get through Congress. The Dems will take it if they can get it, but they aren't going to throw away a smaller increase if it becomes available. Acting like the Dems don't want a higher minimum wage or UHC is dishonest at best.

Universal coverage doesn't mean much if people are still left at the mercy of profit-driven organizations.

 

[Frank the Great]

FPTP+single member districts will always result in two major competing parties. It's as close to a hard rule we will ever get in political science. Even if there is an aberration for one or two cycles where a third party gets some more votes than usual, the system will correct towards two major parties. Always. You simply cannot create a viable long term third party option in this system.

It will take a complete overhaul of our electoral system to introduce more meaningful choices. I for one like the system we have and wouldn't change it to give radical voices more of a voice. At least, in the long list of problems plaguing our electoral process, the fact that we have two parties competing for the center is pretty unimportant.

 

[B-Dubs]

Universal coverage doesn't mean much if people are still left at the mercy of profit-driven organizations.

So what, Germany, the Swiss, the French and everyone else with a multipayer system are doing it wrong? Sounds to me you care more about the ideology than the actual outcome.

 

[shinra-bansho]

No, building up internal support would give a much more tangible and meaningful voice for given constituencies and causes. Pretending a standalone African American Party would be as useful for instance than the CBC in the FPTP system is just foolishness.

You're own personal perception of the Democratic Party being insufficiently left are relatively meaningless. They are as "left" as is viable given the nature of the system. And progressing as possible within those confines.

 

[Diablos]

If we are striving for a multi-party system then ideally we should be striving for replacing Congress with Parliament.

 

[Valhelm]

So what, Germany, the Swiss, the French and everyone else with a multipayer system are doing it wrong? Sounds to me you care more about the ideology than the actual outcome.

Well yeah, they are. The amount of risk associated with private-sector reliance is absurd. The only incentive these companies have to actually provide adequate coverage is income. Potentially costly but necessary decisions will rarely be made, and market dynamics can destroy these companies and deprive their customers of protection.

No, building up internal support would give a much more tangible and meaningful voice for given constituencies and causes. Pretending a standalone African American Party would be as useful for instance than the CBC in the FPTP system is just foolishness.

You're own personal perception of the Democratic Party being insufficiently left are relatively meaningless. They are as "left" as is viable given the nature of the system. And progressing as possible within those confines.

African Americans aren't an ideology. If the Democratic Party was as leftward as they ought to be, why would left independent parties have any followers at all? By not opposing (or even adequately critiquing) capitalism or imperialist military intervention, I'm not entirely comfortable with the Democrats. I'm a member of the party because it's my most pragmatic option, but I have difficulty accepting certain core tenets of the current party.

 

[Iolo]

Also states should have periodic referenda on whether to leave or remain in the United States.

 

[B-Dubs]

Well yeah, they are. The amount of risk associated with private-sector reliance is absurd. The only incentive these companies have to actually provide adequate coverage is income. Potentially costly but necessary decisions will rarely be made, and market dynamics can destroy these companies and deprive their customers of protection.

I'd actually read more about these systems before saying that, Germany and France specifically.

Definitely do some reading on France, as they're the best in the world.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Also, given living in a parliamentary system, I think you have some relatively idealistic views about what minor parties are able to achieve.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Well yeah, they are. The amount of risk associated with private-sector reliance is absurd. The only incentive these companies have to actually provide adequate coverage is income. Potentially costly but necessary decisions will rarely be made, and market dynamics can destroy these companies and deprive their customers of protection.

france has the best rated health care system

 

[VendettaRed07]

Also states should have periodic referenda on whether to leave or remain in the United States.

Only states I'd allow a referendum if they wanted it would be Hawaii, Alaska, and + the territories

Everyone else? Hell no. Don'tForgetYou'reHereForever.jpg

 

[Valhelm]

france has the best rated health care system

And the French system is highly socialized. The majority of insurance agencies are propped up by the government to soften the inevitable harms of private competition.

 

[B-Dubs]

france has the best rated health care system

Seriously, if anything we should be looking to implement their system here. Why go single payer when we know there's something that works even better?

And the French system is highly socialized. The majority of insurance agencies are propped up by the government to soften the inevitable harms of private competition.

And we should go for single payer over that because??

 

[shinra-bansho]

A highly regulated private sector insurance industry here complements the provision of universal Medicare coverage, fwiw. I have private healthcare insurance.

 

[Valhelm]

A big part of my distaste for private insurance is that I don't like healthiness to be a luxury of the wealthy. I'd like to prevent inequality in coverage.

 

[Poodlestrike]

So we just have authoritarian rule because we know better than the electorate?

I mean

Like

The whole point of a representative democracy is saying "look, we know what we want in the abstract, but we don't have the time to become experts, so let's select a number of our citizens to become experts and handle the day-to-day of governing." This is not a direct democracy; sometimes, representatives are going to do counterintuitive things because they're looking to serve their people's best interests, rather than necessarily their expressed desires.

 

[ampere]

A big part of my distaste for private insurance is that I don't like healthiness to be a luxury of the wealthy. I'd like to prevent inequality in coverage.

I get your point, but people with money will always be able to fly to a location with fewer lines, better organ availability, etc

The base coverage needs to be satisfactory, then there's always going to be better tiers for more money.

 

[pigeon]

A big part of my distaste for private insurance is that I don't like healthiness to be a luxury of the wealthy. I'd like to prevent inequality in coverage.

Would you outlaw private insurance? That would put us on the far end of France, Canada and Germany, somewhere close to Cuba.

 

[Valhelm]

Would you outlaw private insurance? That would put us on the far end of France, Canada and Germany, somewhere close to Cuba.

Ideally, private insurance would be unnecessary.

 

[Yoda]

Also, given living in a parliamentary system, I think you have some relatively idealistic views about what minor parties are able to achieve.

Minor parties aren't directly responsible for much, but they don't allow a larger party to claim a mandate from more of the electorate than they actually represent. If we had a parliamentary system, the republicans would dissolve into three parties (in order of size):

Evangelical/Southern Block > "Establishment" (voting based on tax policy) >= Libertarian / Constitutionalism

The Democrats would be at least two/three (in order of size): Centrist > liberal (economic issue focus) = progressive (social issue focus).

In this scenario, when any give one of the parties gains the "majority" their representation in Congress/Parliament is more representative than the FPTP mess we have in Congress atm. Given the minor party's would siphon away seats from the majority, they'd have less overall political power, thus making it harder to implement any agenda unilaterally.

 

[eBay Huckster]

Will Cleveland survive the night?

Most I saw downtown was a lot of cars honking and an impromptu dance off in a gas station parking lot on East 55th. Can't imagine it was much worse further downtown

(On my way down to Columbus now, holy shit I still can't believe that just happened)

 

[Holmes]

People in Cleveland get one day of celebration for 364 days of the depression and embarrassment that comes with living in Cleveland.

 

[Spoiled Milk]

Pinot noir: meh. Adam, what kind of wine do you like?

 

[pigeon]

Ideally, private insurance would be unnecessary.

But that's a long way from preventing inequality in coverage. Even in the majority of countries with universal healthcare you can get better healthcare if you're willing to spend more money.

 

[User 463088]

Most I saw downtown was a lot of cars honking and an impromptu dance off in a gas station parking lot on East 55th. Can't imagine it was much worse further downtown

(On my way down to Columbus now, holy shit I still can't believe that just happened)

WE FUCKING WONNNNNNNN.

People in Cleveland get one day of celebration for 364 days of the depression and embarrassment that comes with living in Cleveland.

Oh, please, we were on day 4949 of depression and embarrassment.

Pinot noir: meh. Adam, what kind of wine do you like?

Whatever comes in a box. I love red wine. I also love Buckfast which is a fortified wine from an Abbey in the UK. Will fuck you up goood.

 

[Valhelm]

But that's a long way from preventing inequality in coverage. Even in the majority of countries with universal healthcare you can get better healthcare if you're willing to spend more money.

That was just utopian daydreaming. I'm torn about banning coverage outright. I'm not a fan of the private sector in any capacity, but prohibitions on private practice are a little authoritarian.

Perhaps only not-for-profit organizations should be allowed to provide coverage? This way, there's no forcible expropriation of the insurance industry, and the positive aspects of competition could still exist.

 

[googleplex]

The reason things like single payer can't be implemented are because the two parties, or in this case the Democratic Party, are already de facto coalitions as already pointed out.

Rather than trying to build up pointless third parties that will never amount to anything in a fptp system the focus should be on building the internal caucus towards a given goal.

Also non sequitur but America's youth are idiots.

And horribly prejudiced.

 

[benjipwns]

Definitely do some reading on France, as they're the best in the world.

france has the best rated health care system

Discredited by the fact that libertarians who own only one tie like it: http://reason.com/archives/2009/12/07/why-prefer-french-health-care

 

[benjipwns]

The one thing that amazes me about the Green Party is that the Green Party almost anywhere in the world is a joke. How in blazes can they be that consistently bad?

It's the two gender leadership thing.

Spoiler

Prove it's not.

 

[benjipwns]

Have a fun, enjoy:
https://twitter.com/JeremyMcLellan/status/742756095362531329

Jeremy McLellan ‏@JeremyMcLellan
"Only paranoid idiots want AR-15s in case the government becomes tyrannical."
"What do you think of Trump?"
"He's literally the next Hitler"

Phishie from Philly ‏@Phishie_Philly Jun 15
@JeremyMcLellan @PugOnTheRight
Obama says only few Moslems are bad so we shouldnt ban them all so why ban AR15 if only a few owners are bad!

eric golub ‏@TYGRRRREXPRESS Jun 15
@JeremyMcLellan Thanks for linking guy who murdered my family & nearly murdered my dad with guy my dad is voting for. Keep it classy libs!

Dianne ‏@DianneInIndiana Jun 15
@JeremyMcLellan If Trump is literally the next Hitler, don't you want guns to protect yourself if he turns the government tyrannical? #Idiot

Casey neer ‏@NeerCasey Jun 16
@JeremyMcLellan our founding fathers would disagree. Hitler advocated gun control what does that tell you? Jerkoff

Joey Mitchell ‏@Joey_Mitchell63 Jun 14
@JeremyMcLellan obviously you are in the wrong country, or maybe you like shitting on the constitution, and individual rights. Ban Islam 1st

Brad Orton ‏@BradANGSA 13h13 hours ago
"@JeremyMcLellan @instapundit If you really believe that Trump is Hitler then you better get a gun to defend yourself... you are paranoid

Wake me in September ‏@lvuteMoir Jun 18
@JeremyMcLellan Literally? Do you even know what that word means? 😂😂😂😂😂

Athenia for Trump! ‏@Oscaretta Jun 16
@JeremyMcLellan @OurbabyMinx hitler and Castro TOOK guns away from law abiding citizens. You all need to learn to read!

SUMCMBARN ‏@MSUMCMBARN Jun 15
@JeremyMcLellan @LOR3LE1 Sir Jeremy, Hitler was a socialist. Read some history, educate yourself.

Phishie from Philly ‏@Phishie_Philly Jun 15
@JeremyMcLellan @PugOnTheRight
Jeremy,
Screw you & ur pathetic attack on 2nd amendment. AR-15's are used for sport hunting & home defense

Phishie from Philly ‏@Phishie_Philly Jun 15
@JeremyMcLellan @PugOnTheRight
You're a hypocrite just trying to get favs & RT's. Ppl like u have hurt our country in more ways than 1.

 

[shinra-bansho]

I think it's a not necessarily valid assumption to suppose that firstly the two major US parties would disintegrate and secondly they claim a larger mandate than what they "deserve" right now. I'm not sure what the latter implies beyond that same liberal fantasy of mass swathes of non voters that agree with me on everything. Also it is from my understanding actually very easy to get involved in the parties.

The presence of viable minor parties usually means some degree of compromise, some minor concessions. But at the end of the day they are minor parties, tails to a dog. That the electorate will punish in situations where it's perceived they're overstepping.

 

[User 463088]

<3

 

[User 85168]

<3

RIPublicans

p.s. I'm not a kid.

 

[Spoiled Milk]

Have a fun, enjoy:
https://twitter.com/JeremyMcLellan/status/742756095362531329

Twitter is just the YouTube comments section with no videos.

 

[kess]

Looks like the kid originally wrote God President

 

[User 463088]

Looks like the kid originally wrote God President

kid didnt even know how to spell goddess
mess

 

[excelsiorlef]

Fair enough. The Green Party recently declared themselves to be anti-capitalist, but they're a joke. Socialism is also pretty far down on their priority list.

Anti-capitalist sentiment is absolutely on the rise in the United States, as America's youth groan under the stressors of fiscal liberalism and see few of the benefits their parents and grandparents enjoyed. Despite only being a particularly labor-minded social democrat, Bernie Sander's use of the word socialist is radical and has altered our political climate.

The Democrats are going to see increasing challenges from the left going forward. I'm not sure how the party will respond to this.

No anti pick and choose rich is on the rise, young people love hip corps like Apple.

 

[excelsiorlef]

So we just have authoritarian rule because we know better than the electorate?

So by this logic, racist, homophobic, pro-rape should also have proper government representation.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

FFRRRRRAAAAUUUUUDDDDDDDDD