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PoliGAF 2017 |OT3| 13 Treasons Why

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kirblar

Member
Is the 17% approval just people saying they want good and affordable healthcare for all!? If so, it's silly why it's so hard to get something as it seems both sides (BOTH SIDES!) do think healthcare is a right. Shouldn't Republicans literally just do the opposite of this and BAM 83 percent approval!?

I just don't understand the calculus on this. I never have since this whole ordeal started months ago, and it continues to baffle me. It's like the math was we're damned if we do, damned if we don't. We made a show for years of repealing, and now the "show" isn't enough even though it had worked well to this point for them. But now let's put our name on something shitty, and hey if it doesn't pass, people will just forget and we can pretend it's not still not our fault at all. Like, maybe that works for Trump (and really only sort of), but that's been shown it does not work for random politician X who isn't always in the news.
It's not silly. Many white people want universal healthcare for "Average Americans."

And to them "Average Americans" means "White People. Not those...others."

A family member literally got the "But you're white!" response from people he knew in college when they found out he was a Democrat.
 

Slizeezyc

Member
I'm glad in the calming light of a new day we're all seeing that the Senate isn't using this garbage bill and that they'll be making their own. As everything has indicated for weeks and some of us were saying yesterday.

And at the end of the day I suspect the Freedom Caucus will fuck up their plans once again.

Let the record show, it was like 3 people losing their minds. Everyone else was sort of like, "this is bad, but it's one step."
 
Dylan Scott‏Verified account
@dylanlscott

The senators working on the Senate health care bill:

McConnell
Hatch
Alexander
Enzi
Thune
Cruz
Lee
Cotton
Gardner
Barrasso
Cornyn
Portman

Mitch and Cotton are our best hopes here. Mitch is a rule-stickler and will want to keep the filibuster for legislation, and Arkansas is so dependent on the ACA that anything that touches it will destroy his career (maybe not a Dem win but a primary challenge would probably get him kicked out; his name would be Mudd for decades there).
 

smokeymicpot

Beat EviLore at pool.
What's wrong with Spicy



lol@ The Trump administration taking credit for low unemployment.


lol @ celebrating cinco de mayo when you're deporting innocent illegal aliens. Fuck off.

He has Navy Reserve duty. No fucking lie I had to look it up yesterday. Had no idea he was enlisted.
 

Slizeezyc

Member
It's not silly. Many white people want universal healthcare for "Average Americans."

And to them "Average Americans" means "White People. Not those...others."

A family member literally got the "But you're white!" response from people he knew in college when they found out he was a Democrat.

Okay, but even if that's the case, like, you can't say that on a grand scale as a voter or a block of voters. Racism was a blatant part of the election and all that, but saying "healthcare for white people" isn't exactly something you can run on.

And so you're more or less saying, "average" white people would rather have no insurance and be broke than have solid insurance if that "smelly minority" has it as well? That sort of racist is that widespread and common? I really have lived in cities too much of my life if that's the case.

Wouldn't racists want to be healthy, I mean their racism would be much stronger if they were healthy and able enough to go and do all their Klan stuff and such. They're much less effective in bed sick or dead. Come on racists, do the math on this.
 
I'm glad in the calming light of a new day we're all seeing that the Senate isn't using this garbage bill and that they'll be making their own. As everything has indicated for weeks and some of us were saying yesterday.

And at the end of the day I suspect the Freedom Caucus will fuck up their plans once again.

I'm pretty sure there were people convinced that McConnell was going to take the House bill and slam it through the senate last night, cackling like a madman.
 

Armaros

Member
Okay, but even if that's the case, like, you can't say that on a grand scale as a voter or a block of voters. Racism was a blatant part of the election and all that, but saying "healthcare for white people" isn't exactly something you can run on.

And so you're more or less saying, "average" white people would rather have no insurance and be broke than have solid insurance if that "smelly minority" has it as well? That sort of racist is that widespread and common? I really have lived in cities too much of my life if that's the case.

You do know the New Deal only succeeded because they assured the voters that the systems it created didn't apply to minorities?

That had to be added later (with less fanfare)
 

Blader

Member
In here, yeah. The main OT thread about it was significantly more hysterical, but that's standard.

I think I can only talk politics in this thread anymore. The hysterics and the primary re-litigating that goes in every OT politics thread -- particularly ones that dare invoke the names of Hillary Clinton and/or Bernie Sanders -- are annoying as fuck and get me genuinely riled up offline! :lol
 

Slizeezyc

Member
I'm pretty sure there were people convinced that McConnel was going to take the House bill and slam it through the senate last night, cackling like a madman.

The turtle would be heard snapping his mouth so violently and happily that the sounds echoed through the hallowed halls of the White House as he hand-delivered the parchment to Trump at 11:58 p.m.
 

kirblar

Member
Okay, but even if that's the case, like, you can't say that on a grand scale as a voter or a block of voters. Racism was a blatant part of the election and all that, but saying "healthcare for white people" isn't exactly something you can run on.

And so you're more or less saying, "average" white people would rather have no insurance and be broke than have solid insurance if that "smelly minority" has it as well? That sort of racist is that widespread and common? I really have lived in cities too much of my life if that's the case.
Yes.
President Lyndon B. Johnson once said, "If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."
Helpful context (LBJ grew up in the South): http://www.snopes.com/lbj-convince-the-lowest-white-man/

And yes, cities don't vote or behave like rural areas. Rural areas are monolithic, primarily white, and they ferment this type of thinking because people aren't exposed to things and people that aren't like themselves.

Racism isn't rational. It also appears to be an issue within us we have to be actively aware of in order to counteract.
You do know the Nee Deal only succeeded because they assured the voters that the systems it created didn't apply to minorities?

That had to be added later (with less fanfare)
The FHA's discriminatory policies and ensuing legacy and pass-down are a big part of why the wealth gap between black and white Americans is so large.
 

Slizeezyc

Member
You do know the Nee Deal only succeeded because they assured the voters that the systems it created didn't apply to minorities?

That had to be added later (with less fanfare)

I understand the logistics of the New Deal, don't get me wrong. It's a fascinating look into racism and all that. I just mean to say in 2017, I don't think you can run on "white healthcare" and it not be a bad look.
 
Okay, but even if that's the case, like, you can't say that on a grand scale as a voter or a block of voters. Racism was a blatant part of the election and all that, but saying "healthcare for white people" isn't exactly something you can run on.

And so you're more or less saying, "average" white people would rather have no insurance and be broke than have solid insurance if that "smelly minority" has it as well? That sort of racist is that widespread and common? I really have lived in cities too much of my life if that's the case.

Wouldn't racists want to be healthy, I mean their racism would be much stronger if they were healthy and able enough to go and do all their Klan stuff and such. They're much less effective in bed sick or dead. Come on racists, do the math on this.

You're skipping the step where the rich people who don't want UHC tell the poor white people that black people are lazy.

Most white rural people wouldn't talk about Chicago so much if rich white people didn't keep reminding them.
 

Slizeezyc

Member
Yes.

Helpful context (LBJ grew up in the South): http://www.snopes.com/lbj-convince-the-lowest-white-man/

And yes, cities don't vote or behave like rural areas. Rural areas are monolithic, primarily white, and they ferment this type of thinking because people aren't exposed to things and people that aren't like themselves.

Racism isn't rational. It also appears to be an issue within us we have to be actively aware of in order to counteract.

I've always liked that LBJ quote. Again, I just am baffled that something with 17% approval would mean the math is actually if you say "white healthcare" it turns into 75% approval or above. I mean if the racism is so strong, it still means the counterbalance is on the more liberal side you're not getting even 50% to be like "yeah white healthcare sounds good to me."

So maybe the question to me is where is the intersection of both those votes and what percentage is that.
 

Armaros

Member
I've always liked that LBJ quote. Again, I just am baffled that something with 17% approval would mean the math is actually if you say "white healthcare" it turns into 75% approval or above. I mean if the racism is so strong, it still means the counterbalance is on the more liberal side you're not getting even 50% to be like "yeah white healthcare sounds good to me."

So maybe the question to me is where is the intersection of both those votes and what percentage is that.

Remember when Obama was in office? The average reaction to the ACA vs calling it Obamacare?

There was a measurable difference between the approval and even more now that Obama is out of office.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I understand the logistics of the New Deal, don't get me wrong. It's a fascinating look into racism and all that. I just mean to say in 2017, I don't think you can run on "white healthcare" and it not be a bad look.

You couldn't run on "white healthcare" but you could dogwhistle it so that your supporters knew that it was only going "to the deserving" and find any number of ways to make sure it screws over black folks
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
You're skipping the step where the rich people who don't want UHC tell the poor white people that black people are lazy.

Most white rural people wouldn't talk about Chicago so much if rich white people didn't keep reminding them.

Chicago gangs is who makes them percosets that Brianna Rae's mom got hooked on before she went bankrupt on account of the diabetes. So don't tell me none of that Thug stuff don't affect me none.
 

Slizeezyc

Member
Remember when Obama was in office? The average reaction to the ACA vs calling it Obamacare?

To me, that was more a messaging issue that somehow couldn't be quelled in terms of just tying the "negative" aspects of the bill (fears of losing your doctor etc.) to it because you can't like the ACA without liking Obamacare as they're the same thing -- and it would mean people of all races are getting coverage either way. Or they just disliked Obama and so the negative connotations immediately go to that (which, sure, I'm fine if you're saying that's race-related). I think that one is just more muddled since it seems like every Democrat struggled with that messaging.

I'm not saying racism isn't real or all that, just am curious about the percentages on it in terms of how many people just would rather watch their health deteriorate if it couldn't just be for them rather than evil minorities as well -- both in terms of party lines and across all lines.
 

Slizeezyc

Member
You couldn't run on "white healthcare" but you could dogwhistle it so that your supporters knew that it was only going "to the deserving" and find any number of ways to make sure it screws over black folks

I guess one other thing to me that's confusing though is that, like, these laws where "rules" are put in place for getting food stamps or your welfare etc. generally seem pretty maligned even in red states. Super conservatives tend to push them, but they generally seem like a bad use of political capital. To me, that is one of the standard dog whistles, but it doesn't seem to go over extremely well outside the ardent white (and I imagine usually well off) base of red states.

Voter ID is another dog whistle, and I guess that usually goes over a bit better, but still, never seems very popular on a large scale like "common sense" gun laws are or something of that ilk that struggles at times at lower levels of polling.
 
Isn't it weird how the voter id nonsense sort of just fizzled out on its own? Those laws obviously still exist, but we haven't really heard much about it spreading to more states or anything. You'd think they'd try to make it a national law at this point with how worried they were about it.
 

kirblar

Member
Related to this, Megan McArdle had a great article on Utah's relatively high income mobility - https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-03-28/how-utah-keeps-the-american-dream-alive (and the difficulties of trying to export the things that it does well when they're so tied in with the church.)

She also addresses the elephant in the room head-on:
This near-absence of racial diversity means that racism is largely left out of Utah’s conversations about economic inequality. That leads to some conversations around inequality that would be unbearably fraught elsewhere. When the poor people are, by and large, the same race as the richer ones, people find it easier to talk about them the way they might talk about, well, family members — as folks who may have made some mistakes and started with some disadvantages, but also as folks who could be self-sufficient after a little help from an uncle or a sister. It’s a very different conversation from “victim”/“oppressor” and “us”/“them”: a conversation that recognizes that poor people often make choices that keep them in poverty, but also that the constraints of poverty, including the social environment of poor neighborhoods, make it very difficult to make another choice.

It’s not clear that we can have those same sorts of conversations in the places that are still struggling more openly and frequently with the legacy of slavery, or the inevitable clashes that come from throwing a lot of different cultures together in a small space. The many benefits of diversity have been so frequently and thoroughly extolled that I need not rehearse the refrain here. But there has been a growing disquiet in recent years with diversity’s costs. About 10 years ago, public policy professor Robert Putnam began quietly pointing out that along with enhancing positive qualities like creativity, diversity also created conflict and reduced the level of social trust.
 
Isn't it weird how the voter id nonsense sort of just fizzled out on its own? Those laws obviously still exist, but we haven't really heard much about it spreading to more states or anything. You'd think they'd try to make it a national law at this point with how worried they were about it.
The Healthcare thing has sort of sucked all the oxygen out of the room.

I guess this is political capital.
 

Emerson

May contain jokes =>
Isn't it weird how the voter id nonsense sort of just fizzled out on its own? Those laws obviously still exist, but we haven't really heard much about it spreading to more states or anything. You'd think they'd try to make it a national law at this point with how worried they were about it.

Too preoccupied with other shit. They'll remember how badly they want it like a week before the next election or something and try to cram it through in time.
 

jtb

Banned
Isn't it weird how the voter id nonsense sort of just fizzled out on its own? Those laws obviously still exist, but we haven't really heard much about it spreading to more states or anything. You'd think they'd try to make it a national law at this point with how worried they were about it.

why would they? they already won. they got what they wanted.
 

smokeymicpot

Beat EviLore at pool.
Just released about Page. That he is not helping.

C_FTAbpXoAI4qPp.jpg
 
BLM is shifting strategy from street protests to more a more policy-focused approach

I think the policy focus is definitely great in concept but Trump really isn't going to listen to them at all. Would the protests have stayed if Hillary won? That streak of protests after Michael Brown up until last year produced some pretty powerful images that I think are still necessary.

I think street protest and policy should be able to coexist within a movement but they might see the protests as a deterrent to their perception.

What's great though is that they're focusing on helping other communities under attack:
In interviews, more than half a dozen leaders in the Black Lives Matter movement said that last year’s election prompted renewed focus on supporting other minority groups as well as amassing electoral power to fight an administration that has pledged to roll back Obama-era efforts to reshape policing practices with a Justice Department that is “the leading advocate for law enforcement in America,” as Attorney General Jeff Sessions has put it. Those leaders — who hail from various factions of the decentralized movement of individuals and organizations that have, at times, clashed — said the reality of Trump’s presidency has forced a reconsideration of strategy.
....

The first major convening of young black activists during the Trump presidency came in April, when they met in Memphis for speeches, marches and workshops marking the 50th anniversary of Martin Luther King Jr.’s “Beyond Vietnam” speech. They were joined by representatives of organized labor, the “Fight for $15” minimum wage effort, and a smattering of immigrant-advocacy and Muslim-rights groups.

The Black Lives Matter network is now one of more than 50 groups that have christened themselves “The Majority,”a coalition of progressives working on social justice issues, including LGBT rights and Islamaphobia.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
BLM is shifting strategy from street protests to more a more policy-focused approach

I think the policy focus is definitely great in concept but Trump really isn't going to listen to them at all. Would the protests have stayed if Hillary won? That streak of protests after Michael Brown up until last year produced some pretty powerful images that I think are still necessary.

I think street protest and policy should be able to coexist within a movement but they might see the protests as a deterrent to their perception.

What's great though is that they're focusing on helping other communities under attack:

If they're going to focus on current and up and coming Dems who want to try and gain in 2018 and 2020 I think that would frankly be a great idea. Now is the time to start making those demands. "These issues have to be a part of your 2018 platform or the black community of your district is not going to support you"
 

kirblar

Member
BLM is shifting strategy from street protests to more a more policy-focused approach

I think the policy focus is definitely great in concept but Trump really isn't going to listen to them at all. Would the protests have stayed if Hillary won? That streak of protests after Michael Brown up until last year produced some pretty powerful images that I think are still necessary.

I think street protest and policy should be able to coexist within a movement but they might see the protests as a deterrent to their perception.

What's great though is that they're focusing on helping other communities under attack:
I just saw this article as well. The Campaign Zero folks were fantastic and I'm happy that they seem to have taken point on a lot of this stuff. When they talk about "policy focused" that's also paired with "get our people elected."

Protest alone isn't a solution, and there's a real danger in people thinking it's one by itself. (Kaepernick not voting is pretty much the epitome of this issue.) Trump getting elected knocking some sense into people on that front is a good thing. (It's also why it's really important that the Dems continue to stand firm on displaying their support for these issues.)
 

dramatis

Member
Help me out, PoliGAF. I'm trying to do a takedown of Tulsi Gabbard for some Berner friends on facebook. Being academics, they're sticklers for "reputable sources" and rebuffed a post from Alternet.

How's this one? https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2016/11/tulsi-gabbard-is-not-who-you-think-she-is.html
That looks like it's primarily about her discrimination, so here's some about her work ethic and sleaziness with money.
http://www.staradvertiser.com/2010/...otest-endorsement-of-tamayo-by-her-nonprofit/
The nonprofit Stand Up for America was founded by Tamayo and her father, state Sen. Mike Gabbard, after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks to promote patriotism and America’s unity as "one nation under God." It is exempt from paying income taxes and may receive tax-deductible contributions as a charitable organization under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Service code.

Such nonprofits may not endorse political candidates. Since mid-July, Stand Up For America’s website has featured a news release from the Tamayo campaign announcing her candidacy, highlighting her "record of proven leadership," and including quotations from Tamayo and a link to VoteTulsi.com, her campaign website.

Tamayo is vice president of the nonprofit and her father is its president. Contacted Friday, Tamayo said she didn’t realize the news release and campaign link were on the nonprofit’s website.

A commentator noted that the nonprofit wasn't actually doing anything good for society.
https://nonprofitquarterly.org/2010...ire-hawaiian-nonprofits-mission-questionable/

They also might want to consider what kind of elected representative goes to do a surfing video shoot for Yahoo News and misses a hearing on veterans care (especially considering since she boasts about her own service)
http://www.civilbeat.org/2014/10/gabbard-missed-veterans-hearing-to-surf-waikiki/

And what kind of person runs for a new, higher political position only six months after she got elected to a city council position?
http://www.civilbeat.org/2011/05/11...ving-hawaii-means-leaving-city-council-early/

Here was Gabbard's Democratic primary challenger from last year.
http://hawaiitribune-herald.com/news/local-news/gabbard-s-democratic-challenger-pushes-debate
Funny enough, after all that shitting about Dem pres debates, Gabbard refused to debate her challenger.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2016/06/28/tulsi-gabbard-dodges-debate


In the end she's just another ambitious hypocrite.
 
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