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PoliGAF 2017 |OT3| 13 Treasons Why

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There are plenty of repugnant House Republicans in California districts (e.g. Devin Nunes, Darell Issa) who are more deserving targets of Dem activism next year than Nancy Pelosi, the woman who brought you a cap-and-trade bill and a healthcare bill with a public option.

Pelosi is not in charge of recruiting candidates or organizing campaigns. That's the DNC and DCCC. Pelosi's job is to get votes on bills.

True, but that isn't their priorities.

I fear that these types of left-wing people are missing the boarder message which is to resist Trump primarily. When coming into the primaries they might be more focused on attacking dems than Trump. Which ironically might cause the challengers to lose in which I would be fine with.
 
Pelosi is pretty darned liberal. I have no idea why she'd be a target except being "establishment."

And that Jacobin piece is garbage. I don't know what I think of Gillibrand but that's a weak-ass piece about it. About all I found valuable was discussion of her voting record.

I'm about to go off on a tirade about guilt-by-association, which seems to be a particularly popular smear from the left.
 

Ogodei

Member
If we win the presidency in 2020, 2022 will be a good year for her to retire because we will have lost the house.

Arguably winning the House in 2018 is time for her to retire the gavel (if not from congress entirely, that's more a personal choice). She's needed now, but i don't think she'd work as a visible speaker again, because what the GOP wants more than anything right now is to be running against Obama, and of the Obama-Pelosi-Reid trio who launched so many GOP fundraising emails, she's the only one left.

Again, totally needed right now when the Dems need an able hand at the tiller to pull off a strategic rearguard action, but I don't think she should be speaker again if the opportunity arises.

My question is who would replace her. Hoyer's practically as old as she is. Who are some of the younger figures in the House caucus?
 
I mean they're clear about it though?

They want single payer, if the most prominent elected Democrat loses a primary for inadequately supporting single payer, they can push the rest of the leadership into supporting single payer because they'd be afraid of more primaries. They'd probably go after Schumer too but he literally just got reelected.

This is just what the Tea Party did and as we just saw with the AHCA where the logic was that "moderates" wouldn't support the Freedom Caucus approved bill but they did because the Freedom Caucus has control of the Republican leadership.

I just said I don't support primarying Pelosi?

Was responding to your explanation not accusing you of anything
 

RDreamer

Member
The left is attacking Pelosi now? Jesus fucking christ that's just ridiculous. She's one of the most proven and capable leaders the democrats have. Without her, Obamacare likely doesn't happen. House GOP leadership over the last years and especially now should really hammer home how fucking good Pelosi is at what she does.

But I guess this is why the left can't have nice things. We don't actually want to accomplish stuff. We just want to feel superior.
 

kirblar

Member
The left is attacking Pelosi now? Jesus fucking christ that's just ridiculous. She's one of the most proven and capable leaders the democrats have. Without her, Obamacare likely doesn't happen. House GOP leadership over the last years and especially now should really hammer home how fucking good Pelosi is at what she does.

But I guess this is why the left can't have nice things. We don't actually want to accomplish stuff. We just want to feel superior.
Notice how all the venom gets reserved for women? Notice that the loudest voices on the angry left are straight white men? It's not an accident.
 

teiresias

Member
The left is attacking Pelosi now? Jesus fucking christ that's just ridiculous. She's one of the most proven and capable leaders the democrats have. Without her, Obamacare likely doesn't happen. House GOP leadership over the last years and especially now should really hammer home how fucking good Pelosi is at what she does.

But I guess this is why the left can't have nice things. We don't actually want to accomplish stuff. We just want to feel superior.

Primary Pelosi, but call Carter the greatest modern Democratic President.

1N3gzkN.gif
 

pigeon

Banned
It's... broadly accurate?

I...guess?

Let's summarize:

1. She knows people who live in New York. Chuck Schumer, Hillary Clinton, Alphonse D'Amato. She supported Hillary in the primary! She tried to get to know Michael Bloomberg but he did not like her!

I guess this is broadly accurate but it seems to be pretty clearly a smear.

2. When she represented a district in upstate New York she was not that progressive. Now that she represents all of New York she is much more progressive. She used to have pretty bad immigration positions.

This is, yet again, the debate between "politician as representative" and "politician as god-king." In reality all politicians are representatives, even progressive icon Bernie Sanders, so I still think this is mostly facile.

I think her previous immigration positions are very problematic if not disqualifying, so the whole article should just have been that, but then it would be an article in Jacobin that focused on social justice. But sure -- let's see what she does to prove that she has overcome her Trumpist past.

3. She supports Israel. Schumer and Clinton also support Israel. CONSPIRACY? YOU BE THE JUDGE. I'm genuinely uncomfortable with the conspiratorial tenor of the ending to this point. Jacobin should do better.

4. She raises money from people on Wall Street and meets with them. She opposed the Lincoln Amendment. This article does not really give very much information on the Lincoln Amendment but you're supposed to assume opposing it is bad because Goldman Sachs opposed it.

Again, sure. As a Senator from New York, Gillibrand met with people on Wall Street. Wall Street is in New York. It's literally her job to do this? Unless your default assumption is that everybody on Wall Street is always and everywhere evil, which does seem to be the assumption of a lot of leftists, this isn't enough information.


So, I mean, I guess it's broadly accurate, but I also agree with whyamihere that it's a poorly executed smear. It can be both! That's how smears work -- they present broadly accurate information with conspiratorial flourishes to make it seem sinister or dangerous. If you are a Bernie Sanders supporter who believed all of the dumbest things that Bernie Sanders supporters believe, this article will help you transplant those dumb ideas to Gillibrand. If you believed reasonable things, I feel like you would reasonably want more information than this article provides. It is mainly a tribal record so that people who consider themselves part of a movement can align their stated beliefs with the stated beliefs of the movement, rather than a document intended to convince others.

Honestly, the rest of the article makes me wonder whether their characterization of her immigration positions is accurate.
 
The left is attacking Pelosi now? Jesus fucking christ that's just ridiculous. She's one of the most proven and capable leaders the democrats have. Without her, Obamacare likely doesn't happen. House GOP leadership over the last years and especially now should really hammer home how fucking good Pelosi is at what she does.

But I guess this is why the left can't have nice things. We don't actually want to accomplish stuff. We just want to feel superior.

It's strange that you keep saying 'the left' when what you really mean is 'a dude who is running in the primary and a couple people on facebook sharing an article.' Pelosi's great at her job even if she can seem out of touch to some people, but I think the hand-wringing over some people on the Internet saying they don't like Pelosi is kinda unnecessary. No need to demonize "the left" over it.
 
3. She supports Israel. Schumer and Clinton also support Israel. CONSPIRACY? YOU BE THE JUDGE. I'm genuinely uncomfortable with the conspiratorial tenor of the ending to this point. Jacobin should do better.
This didn't seem conspiratorial to me? Just pointing out that Gillibrand is in the same mold as Schumer and Clinton, both of whom you may have noticed are not particularly popular figures on the left.
 

pigeon

Banned
This doesn't make any sense, it's not like beating Pelosi would give him a leadership position, the goal is to threaten the leadership into doing what the left wants.

Uh, then they should run candidates in all the OTHER seats and vote Pelosi out of office.

Threatening the leadership by primarying the leadership is just not how democratic systems work!
 
It's... broadly accurate?

It's a terrible smear, please see Crab's post.

She supports Medicare For All and all of Bernie's major bills this session. If you call Gillibrand a neoliberal, this is about a personality cult instead of a Democrat who is fighting for what the Jacobin crowd wants!

Honestly, the rest of the article makes me wonder whether their characterization of her immigration positions is accurate.

It is, but it's much more complicated than that.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/04/kirsten-gillibrand-progressive-champion-2020-run.html

But the gun-friendly, anti-immigration stances that Gillibrand espoused upstate became instantly toxic when she was appointed to fill Clinton's Senate seat. Senior Assemblyman Peter Rivera released a statement calling her immigration positions, including her opposition to amnesty and support for a guest-worker program that he likened to ”21st-century slavery," as ”border[ing] on xenophobia."

”The press pool was taking bets on how many months I would last," Gillibrand says. ”There was nobody in the state who thought I had any shot at being a good senator." She began a course correction immediately. Within weeks of her appointment, she was meeting with Representative Nydia Velázquez on immigration and visiting with the family of Nyasia Pryear-Yard, a Brooklyn teenager killed by a stray bullet at a party.

Gillibrand flinches the first couple times I bring up her flip — evidence to many that she is at least as opportunistic as she is idealistic, maybe more so. ”I never changed my values," she says defensively. Eventually she explains that her shift wasn't an evolution; it was an education.

”You are literally meeting parents who'd lost their daughter, and I'm a young mother with babies and tons of hormones," she recalls, crying even now at the memory. ”I was so upset that I hadn't heard their story. To know that I had not empathized with them, or not even understood the issue well enough to be a good advocate? I knew I was wrong. I knew I didn't know enough. I was just embarrassed that I hadn't taken the time to truly understand what that issue was about."

During the 2016 primary, Gillibrand used her own change of heart to level criticism at Bernie Sanders, her frequent Senate ally, for his record on gun control, and suggested that Clinton, whom Gillibrand supported, hadn't gone far enough on guns. It is frankly impossible to imagine either Clinton or Sanders putting the self-flagellating ”I am embarrassed not to have known better" frame on their own past contortions. But Gillibrand tells a similar story about her shifts on immigration. ”My district was 98 percent white," she says. ”I hadn't sat down with people to know what it feels like to live with constant racism, to live with the constant threat of families being torn apart."

”I was maybe a little bit tough with her," says Velázquez, recalling how critical she had been when Gillibrand reached out. ”She was moved, and quite emotional. I was surprised." Still, she didn't think Gillibrand would ever be an active senator on immigration issues. Velázquez pauses and laughs: ”She proved me so wrong." In February, Gillibrand brought a young Dreamer to President Trump's first address to a joint session of Congress.

I'm not for Gillibrand 2020, but it's a terrible hatchet job that misrepresents a record.
 

studyguy

Member
Uh, then they should run candidates in all the OTHER seats and vote Pelosi out of office.

Threatening the leadership by primarying the leadership is just not how democratic systems work!

Even in the unlikely event that you bounce out Pelosi without removing ANYONE ELSE in the house. Like what do you gain by plopping a freshman rep in the house? If there's no credible threat to any other seats, then they become the average freshman and get last pickings in pretty much every regard. It's like cool we're here and now we're the left's HFC party of 1.
 

pigeon

Banned
This didn't seem conspiratorial to me? Just pointing out that Gillibrand is in the same mold as Schumer and Clinton, both of whom you may have noticed are not particularly popular figures on the left.

I believe the article makes a pretty clear allusion that Gillibrand supports Israel because Schumer and Clinton want her to, which itself is an allusion to the idea that there's a Jewish conspiracy propping up Israel.

Am I overreading it? Maybe. But it's also dangerous ground. The far left is way too open to anti-Semitism. They need to be more careful about these allusions.
 
Oh wow you're telling me a Senator from a New York is supportive of Israel and has close ties to Wall Street.

I'm so shocked I don't know what to say!

For the record I'm not a big fan of Gilibrand but I'm so tired of these leftist publications writing entry level political articles about things everyone should know about already.
 
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thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
It does make me wonder if anyone from New York or New Jersey is just too close to wall street by location, and makes themselves too vulnerable to hit pieces about them being a wall street insider for national elections, even if those hit pieces are completely unfair and misleading.
 

kirblar

Member
Oh wow you're telling me a Senator from a New York is supportive of Israel and has close ties to Wall Street.

I'm so shocked I don't know what to say!

For the record I'm not a big fan of Gilibrand but I'm so tired of these leftist publications writing entry level political articles about things everyone should know about already.
They're doing it to indoctrinate people. Hence, their first profile piece being a hit piece.
 

pigeon

Banned
I mean isn't this just what happened to Cantor though?

Kind of? But Cantor didn't change his behavior in any way because of the primary challenge. Arguably the GOP changed their position on immigration because Cantor LOST, but even then I'm not sure the causal link is that clear. Immigration reform was something many Republicans in the GOP primary supported. Obviously the issue kind of ended up going the other way, but beating Cantor didn't eradicate the idea. It just pushed it to a later venue where it did get eradicated. So unless you're planning to put a Marxist Trump in the Dem primary, I don't think you really win this way.
 
What is Jacobin anyway? Who is this random journalist from New Zealand who wrote it? Does anyone even care about this piece, I'm confused. Gillibrand is already four steps ahead of all of this.
 

Kusagari

Member
I've never seen an actual reason from Berniecrats for why they hate Pelosi other than her representing the establishment and part of the party that needs to take a backseat to Bernie and his ilk now.
 
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thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
What is Jacobin anyway? Who is this random journalist from New Zealand who wrote it? Does anyone even care about this piece, I'm confused. Gillibrand is already four steps ahead of all of this.

People care about it as much as they care about a New Republic or Mother Jones article.
 

Tarydax

Banned
I've never seen an actual reason from Berniecrats for why they hate Pelosi other than her representing the establishment and part of the party that needs to take a backseat to Bernie and his ilk now.

There's also the one where they say Pelosi has been at her job for too long.

Bernie's been a senator for decades, but they don't talk about that.
 

Effect

Member
Just venting I guess. This is my problem with the far left. To many think experience is a bad thing. Yes try to get rid of a person that actually supports you but also has the knowledge and experience of knowing how to actually navigate the damn jungle that is Washington and Congress. A person that has proven they know how to get things done when it comes to getting votes for a bill (proven success) or providing opposition and holding the members together. He isn't getting her position if he wins. No one is going to listen to him because Congress works on seniority and it kinda should because those completely new have no clue as to how things work or what they're doing.

I'm also sick of them complaining about money from corporations. I'm sorry it is beyond fucking stupid to want to disarm yourself going into a battle. That has never made a damn bit of sense. You will never make up the difference with grassroots alone and free air time form the media is 100% a gamble. If there is one thing that keeps pushing me away and from taking some of these people seriously is when they harp on this. I will never agree with disarming. Not when you are the only one doing it!

People bring up what the Tea Party did but did people forget that the Tea Party was being funded by various groups and billionares. It wasn't some true grassroots operation no matter how foolishly some in the media want to portray even when they knew it wasn't. To try and repeat what they did without the funding and backing (radio, Fox News, etc) they had is dumb. To many on the left have the passion but refuse to stop and think things out for the long term and then want to blast thoughs that do want to go in with a plan or think beyond the immediate.
 

pigeon

Banned
It's good if a moderate has a progressive awakening. Jacobin is being tribalist rather than ideological here.

This is pretty much my take. Angry leftists need talking points for opposing Gillibrand. Jacobin has you covered! They don't have to be well-considered. Arguably that would be bad.
 

Ogodei

Member
Just venting I guess. This is my problem with the far left. To many think experience is a bad thing. Yes try to get rid of a person that actually supports you but also has the knowledge and experience of knowing how to actually navigate the damn jungle that is Washington and Congress. A person that has proven they know how to get things done when it comes to getting votes for a bill (proven success) or providing opposition and holding the members together. He isn't getting her position if he wins. No one is going to listen to him because Congress works on seniority and it kinda should because those completely new have no clue as to how things work or what they're doing.

I'm also sick of them complaining about money from corporations. I'm sorry it is beyond fucking stupid to want to disarm yourself going into a battle. That has never made a damn bit of sense. You will never make up the difference with grassroots alone and free air time form the media is 100% a gamble. If there is one thing that keeps pushing me away and from taking some of these people seriously is when they harp on this. I will never agree with disarming. Not when you are the only one doing it!

People bring up what the Tea Party did but did people forget that the Tea Party was being funded by various groups and billionares. It wasn't some true grassroots operation no matter how foolishly some in the media want to portray even when they knew it wasn't. To try and repeat what they did without the funding and backing (radio, Fox News, etc) they had is dumb. To many on the left have the passion but refuse to stop and think things out for the long term and then want to blast thoughs that do want to go in with a plan or think beyond the immediate.

And many of the more successful tea party figures were either career politicians or conservative activists previously. Trump's really the only outsider success story, and that came from being a national celebrity (which i don't think the far left would want either. Though i'm sure some would be pleased with President Jenny McCarthy).
 
I've never seen an actual reason from Berniecrats for why they hate Pelosi other than her representing the establishment and part of the party that needs to take a backseat to Bernie and his ilk now.

It's literally just bernie bros wanting to blame everything on the "establishment". That's it.

Like I can understand people not liking Harry Reid, but Pelosi got so much shit passed as speaker that to call her ineffective is not just ridiculous but factually wrong.
 

Effect

Member
I've never seen an actual reason from Berniecrats for why they hate Pelosi other than her representing the establishment and part of the party that needs to take a backseat to Bernie and his ilk now.

That's ultimately it really. They latched on this and haven't let go. Actual accomplishments don't really matter. They didn't matter for Clinton. In fact if you asked for details on why they hated her and you really wouldn't get an answer. They'd toss out some buzz term or republican talking point but couldn't give an good thought out answer on their own or anything they themselves reasoned out.
 
Bernie Sanders has done have fucked up drag. I mean the Democratic Party.

Notice he shuffled right back to claiming to be an "Independent" after he lost the primary.

He's an independent because that's how he was elected. He's said multiple times he will run as a democrat in the future.
 
The guy literally said he's running against Pelosi because of Pelosi's lack of support for single payer.

I don't think that's a Republican talking point.
 

RDreamer

Member
It's strange that you keep saying 'the left' when what you really mean is 'a dude who is running in the primary and a couple people on facebook sharing an article.' Pelosi's great at her job even if she can seem out of touch to some people, but I think the hand-wringing over some people on the Internet saying they don't like Pelosi is kinda unnecessary. No need to demonize "the left" over it.

I realize it's a bit of a limited crowd, I've just seen more vitriol towards her than she ever rightly deserves, especially from the perspective of a supposed progressive. Her "no" answer on universal healthcare as a platform was passed around twitter a ton by those same sorts, too.

I also still think this is sort of representative of "the left's" modern problem. They fall way too easily for the same propaganda the right throws at certain figures. They play right into it and then it spreads and becomes a sort of commonly known problem with certain people. It's not something I see at all on the right, too. They tend to protect their own much more. Not saying we shouldn't rightly critique certain things, but it's very dangerous what seems to be happening more and more.
 

Hindl

Member
Bernie Sanders has done have fucked up drag. I mean the Democratic Party.

Notice he shuffled right back to claiming to be an "Independent" after he lost the primary.

He was elected as an Independent, that's how he'll end his term. When he's up for reelection he'll be a Democrat.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
1. She knows people who live in New York. Chuck Schumer, Hillary Clinton, Alphonse D'Amato. She supported Hillary in the primary!

I guess this is broadly accurate but it seems to be pretty clearly a smear.

I don't know what you mean by smear. Do you just mean "things were pointed out about her that people have good reason not to like"? People don't like Clinton. People don't like Schumer. It's reasonable to judge people by the company they keep. I'm pretty sure you all have reason to dislike someone who spends large amounts of time in free association with Steve Bannon.

This is, yet again, the debate between "politician as representative" and "politician as god-king." In reality all politicians are representatives, even progressive icon Bernie Sanders, so I still think this is mostly facile.

I mean, no, this is a debate about whether she has any consistency and whether we should value it in a politician (no and yes respectively).

To be clear, I do value conversions. They're great! Good for her. But I also want to know she'll stay the path. That I can't have any confidence in. Maybe if she can keep things up for ten, fifteen years I might have reason to change my mind. As it is, I can't tell if this was a genuine conversion or a career move. Unfortunately, I'm inclined to play it safe in the current political climate.

3. She supports Israel. Schumer and Clinton also support Israel. CONSPIRACY? YOU BE THE JUDGE. I'm genuinely uncomfortable with the conspiratorial tenor of the ending to this point. Jacobin should do better.

Yes, and people didn't like Schumer or Clinton's stance on Israel. That's not a conspiracy, that's just not supporting an apartheid regime.

4. She raises money from people on Wall Street and meets with them. She opposed the Lincoln Amendment. This article does not really give very much information on the Lincoln Amendment but you're supposed to assume opposing it is bad because Goldman Sachs opposed it.

You're welcome to do the research. It wasn't very good.

Honestly, your take down was really lazy. I feel like you've gone "some people who supported Sanders have criticized her, I hate people who supported Sanders, therefore the criticisms cannot be legitimate". Why is criticizing a politician using a collection of true and sourced facts now a smear?
 

kirblar

Member
And many of the more successful tea party figures were either career politicians or conservative activists previously. Trump's really the only outsider success story, and that came from being a national celebrity (which i don't think the far left would want either. Though i'm sure some would be pleased with President Jenny McCarthy).
We're going to get a massive failure of a Zuckerberg run and it's going to be so goddamn funny.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Which is why it's disappointing to see them do a half-baked hatchet job of Gillibrand, who largely supportive of every single of one of their policy proposals.

Jacobin is always going to be suspicious of anyone who doesn't call themselves a socialist. I bet if she adopted Bernie's claim to "democratic socialism" they'd be on her side, albeit somewhat critical (same as with Bernie).

They're not liberals so I would expect them to be suspicious of most Democrats in general.
 

RDreamer

Member
Just venting I guess. This is my problem with the far left. To many think experience is a bad thing. Yes try to get rid of a person that actually supports you but also has the knowledge and experience of knowing how to actually navigate the damn jungle that is Washington and Congress. A person that has proven they know how to get things done when it comes to getting votes for a bill (proven success) or providing opposition and holding the members together. He isn't getting her position if he wins. No one is going to listen to him because Congress works on seniority and it kinda should because those completely new have no clue as to how things work or what they're doing.

I'm also sick of them complaining about money from corporations. I'm sorry it is beyond fucking stupid to want to disarm yourself going into a battle. That has never made a damn bit of sense. You will never make up the difference with grassroots alone and free air time form the media is 100% a gamble. If there is one thing that keeps pushing me away and from taking some of these people seriously is when they harp on this. I will never agree with disarming. Not when you are the only one doing it!

People bring up what the Tea Party did but did people forget that the Tea Party was being funded by various groups and billionares. It wasn't some true grassroots operation no matter how foolishly some in the media want to portray even when they knew it wasn't. To try and repeat what they did without the funding and backing (radio, Fox News, etc) they had is dumb. To many on the left have the passion but refuse to stop and think things out for the long term and then want to blast thoughs that do want to go in with a plan or think beyond the immediate.

I also think we need to wait and see what the Tea Party actually got their base. If the Tea Party weren't there I think the right would have got a lot more compromise from Obama. If the Tea Party and freedom caucus asshats weren't there we'd probably be sitting on some sort of more conservative Obamacare change, too. Yes Republicans got a lot of power, but getting anything done is like trying to herd squirrels. It really ain't working, so I don't think copying them would ever be a great idea. Pelosi and what she did with the majority she had during the Obamacare times is really what we should strive for again, not like 20 ideologically pure assholes that stop all progress because it isn't quite left enough.
 
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