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PoliGAF 2017 |OT3| 13 Treasons Why

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studyguy

Member
We're going to get a massive failure of a Zuckerberg run and it's going to be so goddamn funny.

Does it pose a conflict of interest to run FB ads for the Zucc while owning FB? Even if he distances himself from his current position on FB, I'd imagine it'll still raise the inevitable questions of conspiracy to censor other candidates and shit on FB.

Seriously though, if Zuck runs, it's gonna be a fucking circus.
 
We're going to get a massive failure of a Zuckerberg run and it's going to be so goddamn funny.
No. It won't be funny. Big names running and fucking up a cycle is no longer funny. It's going to be a massive waste of time and I am totally not looking forward to CNN sucking him off 24/7 ... major networks are going to force the "Democratic trump" narrative when they should be taking this seriously. I really hope Perez just tells him to fuck off
 
We're going to get a massive failure of a Zuckerberg run and it's going to be so goddamn funny.

I get a good laugh every time I see his lame "presidential" Facebook posts pop up. "My wife and I walked through a quaint town in Arkansas and talked to the amazing people there. We ate their food and bought their products. I understand all their problems now."
 

kirblar

Member
I also think we need to wait and see what the Tea Party actually got their base. If the Tea Party weren't there I think the right would have got a lot more compromise from Obama. If the Tea Party and freedom caucus asshats weren't there we'd probably be sitting on some sort of more conservative Obamacare change, too. Yes Republicans got a lot of power, but getting anything done is like trying to herd squirrels. It really ain't working, so I don't think copying them would ever be a great idea. Pelosi and what she did with the majority she had during the Obamacare times is really what we should strive for again, not like 20 ideologically pure assholes that stop all progress because it isn't quite left enough.
The incoming 2018 and 2020 classes are going to get you a lot more Ossoffs, too.
No. It won't be funny. Big names running and fucking up a cycle is no longer funny. It's going to be a massive waste of time and I am totally not looking forward to CNN sucking him off 24/7 ... major networks are going to force the "Democratic trump" narrative when they should be taking this seriously. I really hope Perez just tells him to fuck off
It's only funny because there is absolutely no base for him to run on here! We can't stop him. We probably don't want to.
 
To be clear, I do value conversions. They're great! Good for her. But I also want to know she'll stay the path. That I can't have any confidence in. Maybe if she can keep things up for ten, fifteen years I might have reason to change my mind. As it is, I can't tell if this was a genuine conversion or a career move. Unfortunately, I'm inclined to play it safe in the current political climate.

It actually seems like you don't value conversions.
 
I don't know what you mean by smear. Do you just mean "things were pointed out about her that people have good reason not to like"? People don't like Clinton. People don't like Schumer. It's reasonable to judge people by the company they keep. I'm pretty sure you all have reason to dislike someone who spends large amounts of time in free association with Steve Bannon.

No, not really. Not when you're talking about the prominent members of her party in her state.

It's intellectually lazy at best, and self-defeating at worst.

Her policies, past and present, and her stated beliefs as used to support those policies are perfectly legit. That's about 25% of that article.

Also, news flash: in a political reality where fundraising is important, any politician from the tri-state area is going to have big donors from Wall St. Plenty of liberal people on Wall St who want to support change. And they have the most money.

EDIT:

To be clear, I do value conversions. They're great! Good for her. But I also want to know she'll stay the path. That I can't have any confidence in. Maybe if she can keep things up for ten, fifteen years I might have reason to change my mind. As it is, I can't tell if this was a genuine conversion or a career move. Unfortunately, I'm inclined to play it safe in the current political climate.

So, 8 years is not enough, but 10 should just about be enough?
 
Argh it's like all of our hopes and dreams of the Republican base shattering due to Trump is spilling over to the Democrat side as well. My hope is they somehow rectify this all before the next upcoming major election cycle for the House/Senate.
 

kirblar

Member
Argh it's like all of our hopes and dreams of the Republican base shattering due to Trump is spilling over to the Democrat side as well. My hope is they somehow rectify this all before the next upcoming major election cycle for the House/Senate.
One of the real issues w/ Bernie is that he helped legitimize the sit-out leftist crew that have historically been ignored because they're the sit-out leftist crew that will always abandon you at the nearest bus stop.
 
It's only funny because there is absolutely no base for him to run on here! We can't stop him. We probably don't want to.
I still don't know how true that will turn out being. It's just going to take valuable time away from serious candidates even if he falls flat on his face.

The field for 2020 is going to be weak and I'm just worried the media will run away with him as the main talking point because the other storylines aren't as interesting for them to hype up.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Also, news flash: in a political reality where fundraising is important, any politician from the tri-state area is going to have big donors from Wall St. Plenty of liberal people on Wall St who want to support change.

And you expect socialists to just shrug and be ok with that? I get it from the liberal perspective, but a socialist is just going to go "well of course that's what we've been saying - the rich control everything".

It's not like she's the only candidate right now and we all have to support her. Criticism and self criticism are good.
 

pigeon

Banned
I don't know what you mean by smear. Do you just mean "things were pointed out about her that people have good reason not to like"? People don't like Clinton. People don't like Schumer. It's reasonable to judge people by the company they keep. I'm pretty sure you all have reason to dislike someone who spends large amounts of time in free association with Steve Bannon.

Yeah, because Steve Bannon is a Nazi.

Clinton and Schumer are mainstream Democrats. I happen to like them! In fact, most Democrats like them. So without offering any actual reasons to dislike them aside from "you should already know that they're terrible," you're making no effort to persuade anybody who doesn't already agree with you.

I mean, no, this is a debate about whether she has any consistency and whether we should value it in a politician (no and yes respectively).

That's what I said. Do politicians have consistency? In general, no. If you don't like those politicians, as with Hillary, this lack of consistency is proof of their corrupt nature. If you do like these politicians, as with Bernie, this lack of consistency is proof of their ability to get things done and figure out where their constituents are at.

"The compromises your politician made are evil, but the compromises my politician made were just pragmatically necessary" came up a lot during the primary. I'm pretty familiar with the argument by now.

Yes, and people didn't like Schumer or Clinton's stance on Israel. That's not a conspiracy, that's just not supporting an apartheid regime.

I already responded to this. Jacobin should make more effort to avoid dog-whistling to the anti-Semitic left.

Israel is engaging in human rights abuses with Palestine. Also, they're worried about security. The one doesn't justify the other by any means, and I support UN recognition of Palestine as an independent nation, and believe that Israel would benefit significantly from such an action. But that doesn't mean everybody who's supporting Israel's right to security is doing so because they've been corrupted by Jewish New Yorker senators. That allusion is problematic, and I don't think it's accidental.

You're welcome to do the research. It wasn't very good.

That's why I read the article! To learn information! That's why I'm disappointed that it failed to provide any information. That is actually the job of news articles -- to give people information that may change their positions. It's just not the job of this article, because it isn't intended to change anyone's positions.

Honestly, your take down was really lazy.

Well, I didn't get paid as much as this guy did.

I feel like you've gone "some people who supported Sanders have criticized her, I hate people who supported Sanders, therefore the criticisms cannot be legitimate".

I mean, I explicitly called out that I thought one of the criticisms was potentially legitimate, and the presence of all the other less legitimate criticisms damaged it. There is nothing I can do to prove my motivations to you, so if you think I'm just being disingenuous, why bother responding?

Why is criticizing a politician using a collection of true and sourced facts now a smear?

That's like the definition of a smear. Using true and sourced facts to paint a misleading image of a politician with the intention of damaging them. What do you think "smear" means?
 

kirblar

Member
I still don't know how true that will turn out being. It's just going to take valuable time away from serious candidates even if he falls flat on his face.

The field for 2020 is going to be weak and I'm just worried the media will run away with him as the main talking point because the other storylines aren't as interesting for them to hype up.
The field for 2020 is going to be anything but weak though? It's just going to be large.
 

pigeon

Banned
And you expect socialists to just shrug and be ok with that? I get it from the liberal perspective, but a socialist is just going to go "well of course that's what we've been saying - the rich control everything".

It's not like she's the only candidate right is and we all have to support her. Criticism and self criticism are good.

I mean, I guess so, but it seems problematic to say "nobody from New York or California can be a Democrat, because New York and California are filled with rich elites."
 
It actually seems like you don't value conversions.
This honestly seems to be a common theme with some Bernie supporters. A friend of mine on FB said he felt iffy about Warren because she used to be a Republican.

Like if you weren't born right about everything 100% you're useless. Of course, except for when Bernie changed positions.
 
This honestly seems to be a common theme with Bernie supporters. A friend of mine on FB said he felt iffy about Warren because she used to be a Republican.

Like if you weren't born right about everything 100% you're useless.

I don't think it's a Bernie supporter thing. I just find it to be pretense when you don't like someone.

People can change their minds.
 

sphagnum

Banned
I mean, I guess so, but it seems problematic to say "nobody from New York or California can be a Democrat, because New York and California are filled with rich elites."

Nah there's 48 other states who could put up contenders, let the Wall St/Silicon Valley folks take a seat until the vetting is done on everyone else.
 
To be honest, I don't think Gillibrand's position changed all that much so much as the political reality changed and she adapted. This is probably true of every time Bernie's opinion has changed on something (like guns in the primary).

I think this does show that pressure can force someone to move towards you though, which seems like a good argument for not letting up on the pressure.

Also whyamihere I couldn't find anything about her supporting Medicare For All? She is signed on with the College For All and $15 minimum wage though, so she's obviously moving with the direction of the left pressure.
 
And you expect socialists to just shrug and be ok with that? I get it from the liberal perspective, but a socialist is just going to go "well of course that's what we've been saying - the rich control everything".

It's not like she's the only candidate right is and we all have to support her. Criticism and self criticism are good.

And yet somehow this results in tearing down candidates (or sitting them out) who put Citizen's United and campaign finance reform on their slates.

Acting like reality isn't reality doesn't help win elections or affect change.

I suppose the summary is-- that Jacobin piece is terrible because it's written by a socialist, in which anything Wall St related is automatically evil.
 

pigeon

Banned
Nah there's 48 other states who could put up contenders, let the Wall St/Silicon Valley folks take a seat until the vetting is done on everyone else.

MFW you say that social justice and economic justice don't need to be opposed but people from the most socially liberal states in the country shouldn't run for national office because of economics
 
The field for 2020 is going to be anything but weak though? It's just going to be large.
I moreso meant weak in that there's not going to be any clear front runner and a lot of green young candidates most people don't know anything about. Zuck will be the biggest name out of them all and that sort of dynamic just makes me uncomfortable. I'd prefer they'd spend every second they'd spend on Zuck giving younger candidates a chance. I think the media needs to stop rewarding circuses with attention
 

kirblar

Member
I moreso meant weak in that there's not going to be any clear front runner and a lot of green young candidates most people don't know anything about. Zuck will be the biggest name out of them all and that sort of dynamic just makes me uncomfortable. I'd prefer they'd spend every second they'd spend on Zuck giving younger candidates a chance. I think the media needs to stop rewarding circuses with attention
The candidates we win with are relative unknowns! Zuck being in there as a shield for negativity that everyone can hate on won't be a bad thing.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
And you expect socialists to just shrug and be ok with that? I get it from the liberal perspective, but a socialist is just going to go "well of course that's what we've been saying - the rich control everything".

It's not like she's the only candidate right is and we all have to support her. Criticism and self criticism are good.

In a 2 party system, yes. (Edit: I should amend this to expect indifference and not acceptance)

There are so few self-described socialists, you don't have the influence to do anything else.

You can apply whatever influence you can muster as a group, but you won't get far making an enemy of the party that is closest to you ideologically.

...

Like if you weren't born right about everything 100% you're useless. Of course, except for when Bernie changed positions.

Considering the overlap between Bernie-Stans and their dislike of identity politics, is it all that surprising?
 
I don't think it's a Bernie supporter thing. I just find it to be pretense when you don't like someone.

People can change their minds.
Yeah, I just noticed it more among the Sanders voters in the last primary.

Clinton ran explicitly on a realist, "I have experience/I can work with Congress" campaign so I think more of her supporters took her flip-flopping as a given.
 

pigeon

Banned
To be honest, I don't think Gillibrand's position changed all that much so much as the political reality changed and she adapted. This is probably true of every time Bernie's opinion has changed on something (like guns in the primary).

Well, yeah, that's my point. Politicians constantly change their positions in response to their constituencies, and when their constituencies change their positions change too. Some people are better at marketing it than others, and it's easy to give the benefit of the doubt to a politician you've already decided you trust.

I think this does show that pressure can force someone to move towards you though, which seems like a good argument for not letting up on the pressure.

This seems fine, but it's not really clear to me that this document is designed to create pressure.
 
To be honest, I don't think Gillibrand's position changed all that much so much as the political reality changed and she adapted. This is probably true of every time Bernie's opinion has changed on something (like guns in the primary).

I think this does show that pressure can force someone to move towards you though, which seems like a good argument for not letting up on the pressure.

Also whyamihere I couldn't find anything about her supporting Medicare For All? She is signed on with the College For All and $15 minimum wage though, so she's obviously moving with the direction of the left pressure.

Since 2009:

https://www.columbiapaper.com/2009/06/parry-teasdale-13/

After acknowledging the honorees and some early supporters of her first bid for electoral office—her successful race for Congress in 2006—New York’s junior senator quickly segued to policy matters, starting with the economy but moving briskly on to other matters, including national health insurance. “Standing up for public healthcare is the most important thing we can do,” she said, adding that her goal was a system that achieved “Medicare for all.”

But while at least one previous speaker had encouraged support for the single-payer approach to healthcare, with an entity like Medicare handling all health matters, Ms. Gillibrand did not mention that idea. She focused instead on what has emerged as the most divisive part of the current national healthcare debate in Washington—whether a government-supported health insurance program should be allowed to compete with private sector companies offering coverage under new terms set by the federal government. On that question she said, “if we do not have a not-for-profit [insurer] then we, as Democrats, have failed.”

And again earlier this year:

http://nymag.com/thecut/2017/04/kirsten-gillibrand-progressive-champion-2020-run.html

And like Sanders, she sees in left-wing populism — in affordable day care and paid leave and the expansion of Medicare as a means of addressing economic inequality — a path for red and blue America to come together. Sanders spoke alongside Gillibrand in March at a press conference in support of the Family Act, and Gillibrand is very enthusiastic about becoming a co-sponsor of Sanders’s forthcoming Medicare for All bill. “People want affordable health care,” she says. For the record, she’s not late to that party; Gillibrand supported Medicare for everyone when she ran in her House district in 2006. “It’s the solution, and it makes sense to people even in my two-to-one Republican district.”
 

kirblar

Member
And yet somehow this results in tearing down candidates (or sitting them out) who put Citizen's United and campaign finance reform on their slates.

Acting like reality isn't reality doesn't help win elections or affect change.

I suppose the summary is-- that Jacobin piece is terrible because it's written by a socialist, in which anything Wall St related is automatically evil.
You forgot the triple parentheses around Wall St.
 

sphagnum

Banned
MFW you say that social justice and economic justice don't need to be opposed but people from the most socially liberal states in the country shouldn't run for national office because of economics

I'm not saying that they shouldn't be able to run, I'm just saying that if one of the things I like is a candidate who is not chummy with rich people because I think that that means they are less likely to put class issues on the backburner, then I can't help it if I naturally would end up preferring someone who does not have those ties. And if geography plays a role in that, again, can't help that.

That said, if I need to vote for a capitalist, I will. You know that! But it doesn't have to be my first choice and I'd like to see what people unencumbered by ties to financial elites (elites!!!) might have to say first before going with option 2.
 

kirblar

Member
I'm not saying that they shouldn't be able to run, I'm just saying that if one of the things I like is a candidate who is not chummy with rich people because I think that that means they are less likely to put class issues on the backburner, then I can't help it if I naturally would end up preferring someone who does not have those ties. And if geography plays a role in that, again, can't help that.

That said, if I need to vote for a capitalist, I will. You know that! But it doesn't have to be my first choice and I'd like to see what people unencumbered by ties to financial elites (elites!!!) might have to say first before going with option 2.
Being an elected official means that you are going to be meeting with and representing the interests of a lot of wealthy people and companies, no matter where in the country you are!
 

jtb

Banned
What does "class issue" even mean? Isn't everything a class issue?

Abortion is a class issue. Voting rights is a class issue. Minimum wage is a class issue. Universal healthcare is a class issue. etc.
 

pigeon

Banned
I'm not saying that they shouldn't be able to run, I'm just saying that if one of the things I like is a candidate who is not chummy with rich people because I think that that means they are less likely to put class issues on the backburner, then I can't help it if I naturally would end up preferring someone who does not have those ties. And if geography plays a role in that, again, can't help that.

That said, if I need to vote for a capitalist, I will. You know that! But it doesn't have to be my first choice and I'd like to see what people unencumbered by ties to financial elites (elites!!!) might have to say first before going with option 2.

Okay, that's fair. Sorry for mischaracterizing you!

I agree. If a candidate with good bona fides on social justice and economic justice emerges who is not meeting with Wall Street, decent chance they would just be better.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
I'm not saying that they shouldn't be able to run, I'm just saying that if one of the things I like is a candidate who is not chummy with rich people because I think that that means they are less likely to put class issues on the backburner, then I can't help it if I naturally would end up preferring someone who does not have those ties. And if geography plays a role in that, again, can't help that.

That said, if I need to vote for a capitalist, I will. You know that! But it doesn't have to be my first choice and I'd like to see what people unencumbered by ties to financial elites (elites!!!) might have to say first before going with option 2.

I understand that, but perhaps that is better done by lifting up candidates you prefer, rather then knocking down candidates that agree with you the majority of the time.

Especially when done in a dishonest smear-article like Jacobin.

That's not to say criticism is not allowed, but it should be constructive in nature and not conspiratorial.
 
on another note ilu Murphy please do this https://newrepublic.com/minutes/142...lican-liars-medicare-for-all-trumpcare-passes

You can argue that had we done Medicare for all in 2009, it might have been much more popular and much harder to attack than the bill that we passed, which was an attempt to try to fix the underlying problems in the health care system while maintaining the existing platform—this mix of public and private care," Murphy told me. ”Clearly extending Medicare to everyone is much more easy to explain and much easier to comprehend. It's probably most easy for the public to stomach if they're given the choice to sign up for a Medicare program or stay on their private plan; I think you would see, if they were given that choice, a pretty massive gravitation over to a Medicare-for-all type vehicle, because it would likely provide better benefits and at lower cost...Clearly that's going to be on the table if they move forward with this repeal.
edit: wait wrong quote
 

sphagnum

Banned
What does "class issue" even mean? Isn't everything a class issue?

Abortion is a class issue. Voting rights is a class issue. Minimum wage is a class issue. Universal healthcare is a class issue. etc.

They are, and they're very important. But theyre symptoms of the class conflict and Id like to go deeper. For me, personally, If like to see the bourgeoisie abolished, and anyone who is more willing to step on the toes of the rich than not gets an automatic plus. At least until something else pops up that ruins it like being a Stalin or something.
 
What does "class issue" even mean? Isn't everything a class issue?

Abortion is a class issue. Voting rights is a class issue. Minimum wage is a class issue. Universal healthcare is a class issue. etc.
Basically yes. I then tried to make a point with the rest of this post and it wasn't worded properly so I edited it out because my brain is broken.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Murphy reading my mind

Yeah, he gets it.
You gotta deliver the message in such a way that does not immediately tune people out thinking that it's a government take over of health care.

Has the advantage of not being a huge effect on the economy either, it would be a more natural transition. And by using a well known and liked government program that's opt-in, people won't feel forced into it and it will have a chance to prove itself.
The more people in the Medicare program, the more leverage Medicare has to lower prices.
 
The conversation with Murphy on that podcast was pretty good. Light bulbs about where the ACA went wrong appeared to be going off in his head as the conversation went along.
 

sphagnum

Banned
I understand that, but perhaps that is better done by lifting up candidates you prefer, rather then knocking down candidates that agree with you the majority of the time.

Especially when done in a dishonest smear-article like Jacobin.

That's not to say criticism is not allowed, but it should be constructive in nature and not conspiratorial.

I think there's room for both. To be fair, I'd like to see them do a piece on every potential candidate just to compare so we can see if they so have any hidden biases (for example, if they praise Cuomo for his 'evolution', though I doubt it).
 
Thank you for that stunning piece of rebuttal. It actually seems like you had nothing of any value to say.

But it actually seems like you don't value conversions.

If you can't trust someone after 8 years, but you put 10 years as your "trust" value, then it doesn't seem like I can trust the amount of time it takes you to "trust" someone.
 
What does "class issue" even mean? Isn't everything a class issue?

Abortion is a class issue. Voting rights is a class issue. Minimum wage is a class issue. Universal healthcare is a class issue. etc.

Then what do you do with someone like Zuck who would probably support the first two but vehemently oppose the latter two (as well as things like collective bargaining, enhanced federal labor protections, more equitable taxation, newer anti-trust measures for the digital age, etc.)
 
Then what do you do with someone like Zuck who would probably support the first two but vehemently oppose the latter two (as well as things like collective bargaining, enhanced federal labor protections, more equitable taxation, newer anti-trust measures for the digital age, etc.)
You kick his ass at the polls
 

dramatis

Member
True, but that isn't their priorities.

I fear that these types of left-wing people are missing the boarder message which is to resist Trump primarily. When coming into the primaries they might be more focused on attacking dems than Trump. Which ironically might cause the challengers to lose in which I would be fine with.
i don' think they're missing the broader message. It's that they decided the priority is to attack Democrats, not Republicans. Because the obstacle to their chance at power and influence are Democrats, not Republicans. This would be the reason why they are focused on Democrats instead of Republicans.
 
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