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PoliGAF 2017 |OT4| The leaks are coming from inside the white house

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P

PBY

Banned
Snowman Prophet of Doom said:
I get that "Everything is evil, burn it all down" is attractive to angsty teens and college kids, but I do have a theory that a combination of temporal distance from most of the worst of the Stalinist/Maoist atrocities and the echo chambery nature of the internet that allows people to claim "Holodomor doesn't real" and genuinely believe such may make fewer people progress out of that stage.
Click to expand...

I fucking haaaaaate this kind of general, dismissive attitude toward the DSA.

Criticize on the substance, don't paint in broad strokes.
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
sphagnum said:
I think that's probably true, but I dont think it's growing out of proportion with the rest of the movement. It's certainly not surging like literal fascists are with the right wing youth. Sanders, Corbyn, Melenchon etc aren't made of that kind of stuff (well, Melenchon a bit more than the others perhaps). Maybe the popular reformist socialists are blunting it. Which, to be fair, gives some credence to the idea that socialism will only be subverted through a bourgeois democratic process.

I certainly went through my tankie phase early on, but then again I've also been a neocon, a libertarian, and an anarchist.
Click to expand...

I have to keep reminding myself these days that tankies and revolutionary anarchists and others who's ideas actively annoy me in how they seem to downplay harm are really mostly just some people yelling on Twitter in terms of actual political power

PBY said:
I fucking haaaaaate this kind of general, dismissive attitude toward the DSA.

Criticize on the substance, don't paint in broad strokes.
Click to expand...

I don't think the DSA is made of "burn it down" folks at all really. My issue with them is more that I've heard from at least three acquaintances who have been put off by asshattery from their local DSA around race and intersectionality or, in one case, paying for labor, and its enough to make me not want to..formally affiliate with them? But I think broadly they're doing good work, I'm just not going to tie them to my identity unless that house gets cleaned up
 
P

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Bonen no Max'd said:
Conyers' single payer bill is up to 113 co-sponsors, which is 60% of House Democrats.
Click to expand...

RustyNails said:
Wait, I thought the Public Option was signed off by every Dem in the House....why not start from there?
Click to expand...

Jumping instantly to single-payer is a class democrat "Shoot ourselves in the foot" maneuver. The tax will instantly drive people away. All it takes is a simple ad showing how much each person who makes a certain amount will lose out of their paycheck, and it's dead in the water.

Public option is, by far, the best route to take at this point.
 
B

Bonen no Max'd

Banned
RustyNails said:
Wait, I thought the Public Option was signed off by every Dem in the House....why not start from there?
Click to expand...
Why not...more?

Certainly better to have a vision of the future over "make the unpopular part of Obamacare more unpopular" and "let kids buy worthless insurance so they can spend less because of the unpopular part but still make insurance companies wealthier." I'd be very happy if a public option got passed but it shouldn't be the end game of all this and building support for single payer puts pressure on shithead centrists to at least support the public option.

Anyways Conyers has been putting this bill up since 2003 and it's a very good sign if up to 60% of the caucus will sign onto it now.
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
RustyNails said:
Wait, I thought the Public Option was signed off by every Dem in the House....why not start from there?
Click to expand...
Pass single-payer in the House, weak public option in the Senate, compromise for a strong public option. Bada bing bada boom.

(I know this isn't how this works)

Bonen no Max'd said:
Why not...more?

Certainly better to have a vision of the future over "make the unpopular part of Obamacare more unpopular" and "let kids buy worthless insurance so they can spend less because of the unpopular part but still make insurance companies wealthier." I'd be very happy if a public option got passed but it shouldn't be the end game of all this and building support for single payer puts pressure on shithead centrists to at least support the public option.
Click to expand...
I see public option as step 2 towards single-payer (ACA was step 1). Let it phase out the private insurance market and then move to step 3, single-payer once it doesn't really make a difference.
 
K

kess

Member
I dunno, after four years of Trump, taxing the fuck out of kleptocrats like Trump will be a lot more popular. However, adopting Single Payer hinges on changing the insane price structure of health care in the US, which people pay more for, anyway.
 
B

Bonen no Max'd

Banned
Aaron Strife said:
Pass single-payer in the House, weak public option in the Senate, compromise for a strong public option. Bada bing bada boom.

(I know this isn't how this works)


I see public option as step 2 towards single-payer (ACA was step 1). Let it phase out the private insurance market and then move to step 3, single-payer once it doesn't really make a difference.
Click to expand...
Yeah same here, but it's important to show that the goal is single payer and that eventually private insurance will be nuked off the face of the Earth, and at the very least now there's a large contingent of people in the House showing support for it. Unfortunately, the Senate has uh, like three senators on board publicly (though I'm sure the left side of the Dem caucus like Brown, Franken, Baldwin, etc. would all be on board if it came up)
 
S

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Plinko said:
Jumping instantly to single-payer is a class democrat "Shoot ourselves in the foot" maneuver. The tax will instantly drive people away. All it takes is a simple ad showing how much each person who makes a certain amount will lose out of their paycheck, and it's dead in the water.

Public option is, by far, the best route to take at this point.
Click to expand...

The economic ramifications are huge too.
It may be judged to be worth it, but people will need to be convinced of that. Especially convinced that it's better than something like a Medicare buy-in option.
 
A

Abinash117

Member
Medicare-for-all seems like it would take a very long time to be established as it would require changing taxes and how healthcare system works. It would take years even I would think. Despite dems being on the same page on healthcare mostly; the devil would be in the details.The public option would likely be a quicker method and perhaps eventually lead to a single payer system, especially the healthcare system is still receiving issues and people lacking health insurance. The better option would be supporting the public option to have something beneficial sooner rather than later.

I think Democrats will still vote for public option regardless anyway no matter how much they want medicare-for-all. They have the privilege not having extreme ideologues like the Freedom Caucus( not yet anyway) and so they will eventually come to an agreement. The House Democrats supporting the medicare-for-all bill doesn't really matter and is mostly political; it gives them something to run on, but again they'll vote for a public option.
 
A

AndyD

aka andydumi
Bonen no Max'd said:
Yeah same here, but it's important to show that the goal is single payer and that eventually private insurance will be nuked off the face of the Earth, and at the very least now there's a large contingent of people in the House showing support for it. Unfortunately, the Senate has uh, like three senators on board publicly (though I'm sure the left side of the Dem caucus like Brown, Franken, Baldwin, etc. would all be on board if it came up)
Click to expand...

Private insurance can continue to co-exist with single payer, if nothing else as an over the top service. Some countries do this and it allows say having a private room in a hospital vs. sharing.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Bonen no Max'd said:
Yeah same here, but it's important to show that the goal is single payer and that eventually private insurance will be nuked off the face of the Earth, and at the very least now there's a large contingent of people in the House showing support for it. Unfortunately, the Senate has uh, like three senators on board publicly (though I'm sure the left side of the Dem caucus like Brown, Franken, Baldwin, etc. would all be on board if it came up)
Click to expand...
Plenty of countries have private and public options coexist. The majority of the Dems do not hate capitalism and private enterprise.
 
A

aspiegamer

Member
CNN doing a piece on Reddit being a shithole of bigotry? Neat. Specifically, they dug around the posts of the twit who posted that gif originally and found not-so-lovely things (shocking, I know). Also, Trump claims he didn't take it from Reddit, lol.
 
Y

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
Bonen no Max'd said:
Yeah same here, but it's important to show that the goal is single payer and that eventually private insurance will be nuked off the face of the Earth, and at the very least now there's a large contingent of people in the House showing support for it. Unfortunately, the Senate has uh, like three senators on board publicly (though I'm sure the left side of the Dem caucus like Brown, Franken, Baldwin, etc. would all be on board if it came up)
Click to expand...

I don't think this is even the case in countries that have government payer options. Private insurance is never going to go away...
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
PPP looks at Colorado, Iowa and North Carolina Senate races in 2020.

http://static.politico.com/b2/ae/77da546e49ca992803138e9f5cef/save-my-care-polling-memo.pdf

Cory Gardner (CO) trails a generic Democrat hard, losing 39-53. Thom Tillis (NC) is only behind 44-48, while Joni Ernst (IA) is actually ahead 48-41.

Trump's approval ratings are significantly underwater in Colorado and slightly in Iowa and North Carolina. AHCA is unpopular everywhere and voters would prefer that Congress just move on.

Still three years away but Gardner seems like he's toast.
 
G

Grexeno

Member
Aaron Strife said:
PPP looks at Colorado, Iowa and North Carolina Senate races in 2020.

http://static.politico.com/b2/ae/77d...lling-memo.pdf

Cory Gardner (CO) trails a generic Democrat hard, losing 39-53. Thom Tillis (NC) is only behind 44-48, while Joni Ernst (IA) is actually ahead 48-41.

Trump's approval ratings are significantly underwater in Colorado and slightly in Iowa and North Carolina. AHCA is unpopular everywhere and voters would prefer that Congress just move on.
Click to expand...
Iowa is gone.
 
S

ShadowSwordmaster

Banned
Looks like a Dem is stepping up in Idaho for a congressional seat.
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2017/jul/02/little-known-north-idaho-democrat-steps-forward-in/
So, who is that little-known Democrat who filed back in March to run for Idaho’s 1st District congressional seat? After many weeks of trying to reach him, I received a call from Michael William Smith of Post Falls last week, and he filled me in.

He’s a veteran of both the Army and the Marines who served for 14 years, including deployments to Qatar, Iraq and Afghanistan. He moved from southern California to North Idaho just a year and a half ago. This is his first-ever run for political office.
Click to expand...
 
A

Autodidact

Banned
ShadowSwordmaster said:
Do people on Neogaf have a limit response when it comes to politics? I'm not talking about in Community, but the OT.
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Limited response? As in they say the same things repeatedly?

Or limit as in they stop caring and give political threads less attention over time?

Or do you mean a limit to the number of responses in the thread?

Inquiring moderate minds want to know.
 
A

Autodidact

Banned
ShadowSwordmaster said:
Repeatedly, but also the other things if you want to discuss them.
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I'll quote myself:

Autodidact said:
Young people who hate Trump yet who are not really interested in or knowledgeable about politics (or at least weren't until last year), accustomed to sane Democratic leadership, get scared when they have to contend with batshit Republicans for really the first time. I wish they'd get some perspective, but I can see why they'd feel despondent.
Click to expand...

Hence, they overreact to everything, think every Republican action represents a step toward dictatorship, and assume Democrats will never win again because they personally can't remember a Republican defeat (and won't conduct any research). If you want more evidence, see how many posters lack basic civics knowledge.
 
S

ShadowSwordmaster

Banned
Autodidact said:
I'll quote myself:



Hence, they overreact to everything, think every Republican action represents a step toward dictatorship, and assume Democrats will never win again because they personally can't remember a Republican defeat (and won't conduct any research). If you want more evidence, see how many posters lack basic civics knowledge.
Click to expand...

Yeah. There is a lack of knowledge in the OT about politics that is becoming a problem. I don't think that some of the contributions from non-US gaffers are also adding to the problem.
 
R

royalan

Member
Autodidact said:
I'll quote myself:



Hence, they overreact to everything, think every Republican action represents a step toward dictatorship, and assume Democrats will never win again because they personally can't remember a Republican defeat (and won't conduct any research). If you want more evidence, see how many posters lack basic civics knowledge.
Click to expand...

I think Democrats would be better served trying to figure out how harness this energy rather than chastising it.

Yes, young people suck at politics, but they're a part of our base. More importantly, they're the part of our base that's consistently missing when we get creamed at midterms.
 
A

Autodidact

Banned
royalan said:
I think Democrats would be better served trying to figure out how harness this energy rather than chastising it.

Yes, young people suck at politics, but they're a part of our base. More importantly, they're the part of our base that's consistently missing when we get creamed at midterms.
Click to expand...

I never chastised young people in general. I merely explained why the young people in OT tend to be doomsayers. Of course we should harness their energy... and educate them, if possible.
 
C

Crocodile

Member
ShadowSwordmaster said:
Yeah. There is a lack of knowledge in the OT about politics that is becoming a problem. I don't think that some of the contributions from non-US gaffers are also adding to the problem.
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"Actually, the Democrats would be 'Nazis' in my country" is the worst take I keep hearing from Europeans, reveals so much about their ignorance of our politics and misinforms those on our shores who are political neophytes.

Yes I'm being hyperbolic with 'Nazis' here, sue me :p

My point still stands
 
A

Autodidact

Banned
Crocodile said:
"Actually, the Democrats would be 'Nazis' in my country" is the worst take I keep hearing from Europeans, reveals so much about their ignorance of our politics and misinforms those on our shores who are political neophytes.
Click to expand...

Say the Germans whose Moderate Darling Mutti voted against same-sex marriage to appease the far-right of her party.
 
V

VendettaRed07

Member
Grexeno said:
Iowa is gone.
Click to expand...
No it isn't.

Trade is what killed in Iowa more than anything. Obama won twice being the anti trade candidate and the TPP + Hillary not being able to walk back her history on trade doomed her there.

Someone profree trade like Kasich vs someone else who isn't could flip it right back
 
C

Crocodile

Member
VendettaRed07 said:
No it isn't.

Trade is what killed in Iowa more than anything. Obama won twice being the anti trade candidate and the TPP + Hillary not being able to walk back her history on trade doomed her there.

Someone profree trade like Kasich vs someone else who isn't could flip it right back
Click to expand...

Isn't Iowa a state that collapses on itself if NAFTA gets torn up? I honestly feel aside from some of the wonky copyright positions that most people couldn't tell you why they hated TPP except "TRADE DEALS ARE BAD!" :/
 
V

VendettaRed07

Member
Crocodile said:
Isn't Iowa a state that collapses on itself if NAFTA gets torn up? I honestly feel aside from some of the wonky copyright positions that most people couldn't tell you why they hated TPP except "TRADE DEALS ARE BAD!" :/
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Because their factory jobs have gone away in large numbers and trade deals have taken a lot of the blame

Trade has definitely helped Iowa's agricultural industry and it would collapse if they trashed NAFTA (which is why trump didn't do it despite promising he would)

But the industries in the Midwest NAFTA helped employs a lot of immigrant workers on low wages and not as many WWC on higher wages like older factort jobs did. So the people who turned out to vote against NAFTA in rust belt states did not really feel the growth in the industries that it helped besides maybe their grocery bills not being as high as it would be had the deals never happened
 
A

AntraxSuicide

Banned
VendettaRed07 said:
No it isn't.

Trade is what killed in Iowa more than anything. Obama won twice being the anti trade candidate and the TPP + Hillary not being able to walk back her history on trade doomed her there.

Someone profree trade like Kasich vs someone else who isn't could flip it right back
Click to expand...

But that's a bad policy.
 
G

Greigor The Fellhand

Member
these L's
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/03/climate/court-blocks-epa-effort-to-suspend-obama-era-methane-rule.html?smprod=nytcore-iphone&smid=nytcore-iphone-share

Court Blocks E.P.A. Effort to Suspend Obama-Era Methane Rule

"In a 2-to-1 ruling, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit concluded that the EPA had the right to reconsider a 2016 rule limiting methane and smog-forming pollutants emitted by oil and gas wells but could not delay the effective date for two years while it sought to rewrite the regulation."
 
V

VendettaRed07

Member
AntraxSuicide said:
But that's a bad policy.
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We need to pick a side

Either figure out messaging to rust belt workers that blame trade for their economic downturns that it's really automation that hit those parts of the country or keep riding the anti trade train.

Selling an alternative will be difficult. Sunbelt states aren't reliable to flip yet

So we need to hang on to the rust belt for dear life. Anti-trade is probably the only way to do it.
 
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