Support NeoGAF

[kevboard]

there isn't. many UHD Blurays actually use a ~1080p (2k) master just with a super high bitrate and with HDR, which then result in a decent upgrade in perceive image quality over a normal Blu-ray.
you can of course see a difference between a 2k and a 4k master, but it's not something that instantly stands out, especially compared to a 1080p vs 2160p game

 

[ManaByte]

there isn't. many UHD Blurays actually use a ~1080p (2k) master just with a super high bitrate and with HDR, which then result in a decent upgrade in perceive image quality over a normal Blu-ray.

Yea all that money the studios are spending to restore their catalogs to full 4K masters is fake.

 

[kevboard]

Yea all that money the studios are spending to restore their catalogs to full 4K masters is fake.

there are lists online where you can check which UHD blurays use a 4k master and which only use a 2k master
10 Cloverfield Lane is 2k for example, or 300 and Aliens... all 2k on UHD BD, even something like Ant-Man is only a 2k master on UHD

 

[ManaByte]

there are lists online where you can check which UHD blurays use a 4k master and which only use a 2k master
10 Cloverfield Lane is 2k for example

Yea from 2016 and 2017 when UHD was first coming out.

These days they are actual 4K masters. Disney has been spending billions to restore their ENTIRE catalog to 4K over the last 5 years. Every studio is doing it for archival purposes.

You sound like someone who doesn't have a 4K TV and is trying to convince themselves they don't need one.

 

[kevboard]

Yea from 2016 and 2017 when UHD was first coming out.

These days they are actual 4K masters. Disney has been spending billions to restore their ENTIRE catalog to 4K over the last 5 years. Every studio is doing it for archival purposes.

You sound like someone who doesn't have a 4K TV and is trying to convince themselves they don't need one.

Aladdin, the live action remake is a 2k master,
Alien Covenant... 2k master
Alita Battle Angel,
Ant-Man and the Wasp,
Creed 2,
Avengers Endgame...

all 2k masters on UHD Bluray

 

[Fake]

I hope PSSR to be better than FSR. FSR sucks.

Of course will be. Remember the reason to Sony to pursuit CB render is because AMD was incapable of offer any kind of reconstruct tech for PS4pro.

IMO the PSSR will sure give the PS5pro the sucess because the specs bump are minimal, in fact PSSR will be the only reason to get a PS5pro to begin with.

 

[tmlDan]

Yes, but Sony knows they can pump more money out of its customers.

The pro isn’t going to have a big leap people think because it would cost too much to do so. If you care about FPS buying a PC would make more sense and be cheaper in the long run because a good PC is more future proof, free online and games are cheaper on PC.

The issues isn’t the hardware, its devs rushing out unoptimized games and that won’t change with a pro model.

GTA 6 would be the only reason I might consider getting this because knowing rockstar the game won’t came to PC for another year or two. So Sony knows this game creates the perfect opportunity to make people want to buy a pro.

I love new tech but I hate the way companies try to sucker its customers.

PC is too expensive, thanks for the consideration.

 

[possumarmada]

PC is too expensive, thanks for the consideration.

I built a gaming PC this year around a 4080 super. I found myself never playing it as a living room PC just due to the hassle of Buddha loins and the additional tinkering needed. At the end of the day I love the ease of consoles. Happy so spend more for more powerful consoles to maintain that ease with more fidelity.

 

[Radical_3d]

Aladdin, the live action remake is a 2k master,
Alien Covenant... 2k master
Alita Battle Angel,
Ant-Man and the Wasp,
Creed 2,
Avengers Endgame...

all 2k masters on UHD Bluray

 

[tmlDan]

I built a gaming PC this year around a 4080 super. I found myself never playing it as a living room PC just due to the hassle of Buddha loins and the additional tinkering needed. At the end of the day I love the ease of consoles. Happy so spend more for more powerful consoles to maintain that ease with more fidelity.

I got a 3080 a few years ago and cant play anything at max anymore and some games run at a sub 60 fps with massive fluctuations in performance, its just not worth it despite what these people say about PC. It cost me almost 3 grand, the tower and all components (CAD).

 

[kevboard]

I will not tolerate the Alita slander!

 

[ManaByte]

Ant-Man and the Wasp,
Avengers Endgame

Those were shot in ARRIRAW at 6.5K using the Arri Alexa 65 (IMAX) cameras. If you think the 4K UHD version looks identical to the 1080p BD, you're on something.

 

[ChiefDada]

Yes, but Sony knows they can pump more money out of its customers.

The pro isn’t going to have a big leap people think because it would cost too much to do so. If you care about FPS buying a PC would make more sense and be cheaper in the long run because a good PC is more future proof, free online and games are cheaper on PC.

The issues isn’t the hardware, its devs rushing out unoptimized games and that won’t change with a pro model.

GTA 6 would be the only reason I might consider getting this because knowing rockstar the game won’t came to PC for another year or two. So Sony knows this game creates the perfect opportunity to make people want to buy a pro.

I love new tech but I hate the way companies try to sucker its customers.

Wow, fresh new perspective we've totally never heard before.... you should send Sony a message and not buy one. That'll teach 'em to stop screwing over customers by offering an additional OPTION into the market for those who are interested.

 

[Radical_3d]

I will not tolerate the Alita slander!

Ryan George Pitch Meeting’s Thumbnail, The Movie.

 

[kevboard]

Those were shot in ARRIRAW at 6.5K using the Arri Alexa 65 (IMAX) cameras. If you think the 4K UHD version looks identical to the 1080p BD, you're on something.

why is it that people can't read? read my exact words and stop making up stuff in your head. I said the difference in film is less obvious than the difference in games. at no point did I say there's no difference.

and apparently they didn't give a shit then, because the UHD Blurays of them use a 2k master
the difference between a normal Blu-ray and a UHD Blu-ray in such movies comes from higher bit rates and HDR

 

[winjer]

Of course will be. Remember the reason to Sony to pursuit CB render is because AMD was incapable of offer any kind of reconstruct tech for PS4pro.

IMO the PSSR will sure give the PS5pro the sucess because the specs bump are minimal, in fact PSSR will be the only reason to get a PS5pro to begin with.

CB is not a reconstruction technique. It's just an interlacing technique that operates on 2 axis, alternating which pixels to render, each, frame, in a quincunx patter.
But there are no new pixels being generated.

The thing that actually did that were TAAU techniques, such as we have seen in Killzone ShadowFall or Unreal Engine.
There were also spatial upscalers, but these have much less quality.
Neither of these require special hardware to run.

But even techniques like DLSS2, XeSS and PSSR are just temporal upscalers, that use an ML pass to improve image quality.

 

[jasondefaoite]

I only saw one box that was digital only but it looks like it will use the same detachable drive that’s currently sold.


It was an NDA I signed a year ago that expired on Sept 1st from visiting Sonys packaging facility

What was the storage capacity labelled on the box?

 

[Crispy Gamer]

there are lists online where you can check which UHD blurays use a 4k master and which only use a 2k master
10 Cloverfield Lane is 2k for example, or 300 and Aliens... all 2k on UHD BD, even something like Ant-Man is only a 2k master on UHD

This is correct I usually go to bluray.com it shows what movies are native 4k or upscaled 4k.

 

[kevboard]

Ryan George Pitch Meeting’s Thumbnail, The Movie.

it's the best live action anime adaptation ever made (ok... I recognise that's not a high bar to clear but still) and a great movie!

 

[Fake]

CB is not a reconstruction technique. It's just an interlacing technique that operates on 2 axis, alternating which pixels to render, each, frame, in a quincunx patter.
But there are no new pixels being generated.

The thing that actually did that were TAAU techniques, such as we have seen in Killzone ShadowFall or Unreal Engine.
There were also spatial upscalers, but these have much less quality.
Neither of these require special hardware to run.

But even techniques like DLSS2, XeSS and PSSR are just temporal upscalers, that use an ML pass to improve image quality.

Strange, I remember reading about that CB rendering is indeed some sort of reconstruction tech, even DF talk about that.

Can't say for temporal injection.

 

[winjer]

Strange, I remember reading about that CB rendering is indeed some sort of reconstruction tech, even DF talk about that.

It's just an interlacing technique.
I don't think that DF made that mistake.

Can't say for temporal injection.

Temporal upscaling is the basis for all modern upscalers. DLSS2, FSR2, TSR, XeSS, and probably, also PSSR.

 

[Physiognomonics]

Of course will be. Remember the reason to Sony to pursuit CB render is because AMD was incapable of offer any kind of reconstruct tech for PS4pro.

IMO the PSSR will sure give the PS5pro the sucess because the specs bump are minimal, in fact PSSR will be the only reason to get a PS5pro to begin with.

I won't be surprised if PSSR also use the dedicated ID Buffer available on PS5. I mean, they'll probably use it as it can be used for many different things needing previous frames including TAA.

It's just an interlacing technique.
I don't think that DF made that mistake.



Temporal upscaling is the basis for all modern upscalers. DLSS2, FSR2, TSR, XeSS, and probably, also PSSR.

Crazy talk. CBR (done well) is definitely a reconstruction technique.

 

[kevboard]

CB is not a reconstruction technique. It's just an interlacing technique that operates on 2 axis, alternating which pixels to render, each, frame, in a quincunx patter.
But there are no new pixels being generated.

The thing that actually did that were TAAU techniques, such as we have seen in Killzone ShadowFall or Unreal Engine.
There were also spatial upscalers, but these have much less quality.
Neither of these require special hardware to run.

But even techniques like DLSS2, XeSS and PSSR are just temporal upscalers, that use an ML pass to improve image quality.

technically you are correct, but CBR is usually always paired with some sort of temporal reconstruction to estimate what the pixels that currently aren't rendered would look like (Dark Souls Remastered did that so well both DF and VG Tech didn't catch it used CBR)
some games do however just do a raw CBR + TAA, like Rocket League on PS4 Pro for example. zero reconstitution attempts, just interlacing basically. Capcom's PC ports as well, while on console they apparently try to reconstruct the missing pixels each frame which leads to a visible difference between the versions.

 

[winjer]

technically you are correct, but CBR is usually always paired with some sort of temporal reconstruction to estimate what the pixels that currently aren't rendered would look like.
some games do however just do a raw CBR + TAA, like Rocket League on PS4 Pro for example. zero reconstitution attempts, just interlacing basically. Capcom's PC ports as well, while on console they apparently try to reconstruct the missing pixels each frame which leads to a visible difference between the versions.

Yeah, but that is just mixing CB with other techniques.
In essence, it's still just a form of interlacing.

 

[Radical_3d]

it's the best live action anime adaptation ever made (ok... I recognise that's not a high bar to clear but still) and a great movie!

 

[kevboard]

 

[DJ12]

.

I only saw one box that was digital only but it looks like it will use the same detachable drive that’s currently sold.


It was an NDA I signed a year ago that expired on Sept 1st from visiting Sonys packaging facility

So was there actually a pro in the box or was it like a proof of concept test on the packaging. If it's the former, I guess Sony really did plan to launch it earlier.

Wonder what changed the plan.

 

[kevboard]

Yeah, but that is just mixing CB with other techniques.
In essence, it's still just a form of interlacing.

whatever it is... we need to bring it back and throw FSR2 in the trash where it belongs!
I'd rather play a game with 1080p CBR and decent TAA than with 1440p FSR2 quality... sawtooth artifacts are way less ugly than the constant disgusting fizzle of FSR

 

[winjer]

whatever it is... we need to bring it back and throw FSR2 in the trash where it belongs!
I'd rather play a game with 1080p CBR and decent TAA than with 1440p FSR2 quality... sawtooth artifacts are way less ugly than the constant disgusting fizzle of FSR

FSR 3.1 is already better than CB ever was.
The problem is that recent games are still using FSR3, which uses the FSR 2.2 upscaling code.

 

[MisterXDTV]

Movie studios can rescan movies shot on FILM that are not locked to a 2K Digital Intermediate.

Videogames are not locked to anything, you can renderer in 4K even a game from 30 years ago.... Maybe the ASSETS are limited as in texture quality. But even then we see tons of PC Mods to fix that

 

[kevboard]

FSR 3.1 is already better than CB ever was.
The problem is that recent games are still using FSR3, which uses the FSR 2.2 upscaling code.

I have watched DF's video on it and can't really see how it's better than CBR. does it have less fizzle and ghosting than the previous version? sure... but look at a good CBR implementation and you'll not even notice it's CBR. meanwhile I have never seen a game using FSR without it being instantly obvious outside of maybe super dark and slow games running with 4k FSR quality mode

 

[winjer]

I have watched DF's video on it and can't really see how it's better than CBR. does it have less fizzle and ghosting than the previous version? sure... but look at a good CBR implementation and you'll not even notice it's CBR. meanwhile I have never seen a game using FSR without it being instantly obvious

from what I have seen, DF focused a lot on Ratchet and Clanck, for their analysis of FSR3.1
This is by far, the game that has the worst implementation of FSR3.1

The other thing to consider is that FSR3 is not FSR 3.1
Games like Star Wars Outlaw and Black Myth Wukong are still using FSR3.
So they will always look much worse than if they had been using FSR 3.1

For example, in Ghost of Tsushima, FSR 3.1 was a big jump in quality.



Edit: as far as I know, there are no games on consoles that are now using FSR 3.1

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

.

So was there actually a pro in the box or was it like a proof of concept test on the packaging. If it's the former, I guess Sony really did plan to launch it earlier.

Wonder what changed the plan.

Was finished boxes on a pallet that we saw through a window

What was the storage capacity labelled on the box?

Don't recall if I saw or even I remember it being remarkable so can't answer that as it wasn't a great view

 

[DJ12]

Was finished boxes on a pallet that we saw through a window

Interesting, not expecting them to be hard to find on launch then.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Was finished boxes on a pallet that we saw through a window


Don't recall if I saw or even I remember it being remarkable so can't answer that as it wasn't a great view

Wait, finished (empty?) boxes for the console itself? Were Sony then sending these boxes over to China/Japan or are Pro's being made and packed in Indiana?

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Wait, finished (empty?) boxes for the console itself? Were Sony then sending these boxes over to China/Japan or are Pro's being made and packed in Indiana?

Seems like Sony uses this plant in Terre Haute IN to package 90%+ of all their products for North America, from what I remember them saying anyhow, its been a year since my first tour and got the info

 

[Putonahappyface]

Interesting, not expecting them to be hard to find on launch then.

I hope that's the case. I was lucky getting my PS5 at launch.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Seems like Sony uses this plant in Terre Haute IN to package 90%+ of all their products for North America, from what I remember them saying anyhow, its been a year since my first tour and got the info

That's pretty surprising and sounds expensive (and dare a say a waste..) So the products are almost entirely made in China, packed and shipped to Indiana (for NA) and then repacked for retail? I guess if this is how Sony operate they have a similar setup in other regions.

 

[King Dazzar]

Wait, finished (empty?) boxes for the console itself? Were Sony then sending these boxes over to China/Japan or are Pro's being made and packed in Indiana?

This is going back to PS3 days. But when I worked for Sony Broadcast & Professional, I did a tour of Sony's massive warehousing facility in the Netherlands. And they were packing loads of PS3's for distribution. But it dawned in me that, whilst they were obviously being assembled elsewhere, the final packing was done at their distribution hub.

 

[Physiognomonics]

Interesting, not expecting them to be hard to find on launch then.

You sweet summer child. ;-)

 

[King Dazzar]

That's pretty surprising and sounds expensive (and dare a say a waste..) So the products are almost entirely made in China, packed and shipped to Indiana (for NA) and then repacked for retail? I guess if this is how Sony operate they have a similar setup in other regions.

Doing it at the distribution hub, closer to the end customer, would allow them greater flexibility in specific localisation. And any changes perhaps that happen to artwork etc or localisation requirements... But whilst that works for EMEA, I don't see how that helps North America so much. I'm sure there's a good reason for having the supply chain work that way. All I can think of is greater flexibility.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

This is going back to PS3 days. But when I worked for Sony Broadcast & Professional, I did a tour of Sony's massive warehousing facility in the Netherlands. And they were packing loads of PS3's for distribution. But it dawned in me that, whilst they were obviously being assembled elsewhere, the final packing was done at their distribution hub.

In this day and age I'm really surprised this sort of thing is still a thing. I'm guessing a huge tax incentive is involved where if the products get repackaged within the territory they're for they don't pay import duty or something similar.

 

[Calverz]

Realistically what can this do for gran turismo 7? The only game I play/have a ps5 for.

 

[ChiefDada]

Realistically what can this do for gran turismo 7? The only game I play/have a ps5 for.

In-game RT.

 

[Calverz]

In-game RT.

I thought the game was already using rt in game?

 

[ChiefDada]

I thought the game was already using rt in game?

No, just cutscenes I believe.

 

[PaintTinJr]

I think this dual issue thing is being misunderstood. And in truth we have AMD and Nvidia to blame for that for deliberately obfuscating the information.

The easiest way to look at dual issue when used with a proper compiler (the compiler is key), is that it makes the GPU so efficient, that it ts as if it's running twice as fast.

How it does this is important to understand. In your typical GPU, your IOPS and flops for says 32bit float are the same. Double the float for a 16 bit workload as you can fit two of those in a 32-bit waveform, and half the floats for a 64-bit task as you need two clock cycles to complete the task.

A dual issue compute task (and this is because we do not have double data address stores in the GPU, unless this has been changed), allows the PU be "faster" by simply doing multiple operations per clock. Note this is not the same thing as twice as many operations per clock. A good way to look at this is something like this...

Typical GPU
1st Cycle - Arithmetic compute (add/multiply/fused add+multiply)....etc
2nd cycle - memory access operations/Reconstruction pass

VOPD GPU
1st Cycle - Arithmetic compute + memory access operations/PSSR pass
2nd Cycle - Rinse and repeat....

Firstly, not all tasks benefit from dual issue due to conflicts... eg, you can't have the GPU doing two arithmetic loads when you have only one place to store the results per pass. ANd secondly, as you can see from above, the dual issue is extremely compiler dependent. Upi have to specifically write for the target shaders. As such, a developer building a game from the ground up to take advantage of say dual issue on the PS5pro... won't even be able to get that game running right on the base PS5. Much less on a PC.

Am I misremembering the AMD marketing slide for Dual Issue and capability for larger (regression) Matrix maths per clock cycle for AI, then?

As larger size matrix maths doesn't fit in as an advantage of what you described if I'm not mistake.

It was an AMD red slide with IIRC off-white illustration of large matrix throughput, and has been linked a few times in this hundreds of pages back

 

[King Dazzar]

Realistically what can this do for gran turismo 7? The only game I play/have a ps5 for.

We're yet to see what happens when/if it gets a Pro patch. But it'll straight away be giving you higher frame rates in its VRR mode even without a patch. I'd be very surprised if it didn't get a Pro patch though.

 

[winjer]

Am I misremembering the AMD marketing slide for Dual Issue and capability for larger (regression) Matrix maths per clock cycle for AI, then?

As larger size matrix maths doesn't fit in as an advantage of what you described if I'm not mistake.

It was an AMD red slide with IIRC off-white illustration of large matrix throughput, and has been linked a few times in this hundreds of pages back

I think what you are referring to, are the WMMA instructions.

 

[Fafalada]

CB is not a reconstruction technique.

CBR as implemented in/for PS4Pro 100% IS reconstruction. It performs the exact same thing as every other temporal upscaler (including DLSS) - use velocity vectors to resample history buffer into the target frame.
And while not straight up alternating - every single temporal upscaler OR TAA is moving the camera between frames to generate additional samples. In practice the only real difference is that CBR has a somewhat fixed sample sample-pattern (and some hw-acceleration for it) while others have arbitrary sample locations and have to do a bit more work in software (which turns out to not be the disadvantage it originally was thought to be).