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[Diatribe1974]

Good point. Al Gore learned this in 2000.

Well....no matter what you think of George W, it's sad to say that I still Bush > Gore any day of the week and I really really, really don't like Bush anymore (and I'm a Republican for the most part)

 

[fortified_concept]

Privatization is inherently less fascist than 'popular control', As mentioned, the word corporatism comes from the root word Corpus, for body. Meaning that everything is a part of they state's 'body' as it were, and everything in society was to serve the state's interest. It meant that every business, every trade/labor union, every individual, had to serve the interests of the state. It has nothing to do with private business corporations, even private business corporations that lobby alot and have what seems like excessive power.

To put it simply, corporatism is more about the state controlling the corporations than the corporations controlling the state (in it's original meaning anyway, which is the meaning used in the definition of fascism). Corporations controlling the state is a very bad thing indeed, but it is not corporatism in the fascist meaning of the term.

If you think capitalism has tight control at the top and strict obedience, then I'm afraid we are speaking different languages. The whole beauty of capitalism is there is nothing and no one to obey. There are just trades among individuals decided on free will. How you can possible think that capitalism is autocratic but state control of the economy isn't absolutely boggles my mind.

I'm not even gonna touch the subject of what system is less fascist because we have fine examples of socialistic european countries like Sweden and capitalist counties like USA to compare so it's quite obvious which one is MUCH more fascist...

...but tell me do you think that currently the goverment is controlling the corporations, because that would be quite hilarious. Problem with capitalism is that in reality it's the law of the jungle, the weak gets eaten while the strong gets more and more fat. Yes of course capitalism has less rules (so does anarchy btw) but in the end with no rules the strong prevails and the weak lives in constant state of fascism. The rules are there to protect the weak because the strong can become too strong and -I don't know- start buying off politicians.

 

[fse]

Well....no matter what you think of George W, it's sad to say that I still Bush > Gore any day of the week and I really really, really don't like Bush anymore (and I'm a Republican for the most part)

...

bush > gore?

 

[fortified_concept]

Hey look it's Dies Iræ...

Hey look it's the usual americans who are so brainwashed by their corporate media that prefer to defend a fucking monarch than a democratically elected leader because he's a socialist. And what the corporate media and bullshit Hollywood movies have taught us? Communism and socialism IZ EVIL, kings are strong and brave!

http://www.r-09.net/rey2.gif[IMG][/QUOTE]

Oh snap, you showed him. You have the finesse of a monarch when arguing, I gotta hand you that.

 

[Tim the Wiz]

Some of you guys really deserve each other. You have an agenda and you're unwilling to listen to any argument against it. Chavez has done positive things for his country, but his consolidation of future power, with cases that include the denial of free speech, is worrying, and his lack of action on crime, corruption and public infrastructure is concerning. The theories behind his political ideologies are not to blame, total anarchy is not a plausible system of existence in this world, and no, Chavez is definitely no anti-Western, socialistic hero either. He's a complicated man who is yet to go to one extreme over the other, and while he has been vilified in some parts of American society, he has yet to completely show himself up as the figure of evil that compares to what some say about him.

Great hustle, guys.

 

[C4Lukins]

Hey look it's the usual americans who are so brainwashed by their corporate media that prefer to defend a fucking monarch than a democratically elected leader because he's a socialist. And what the corporate media and bullshit Hollywood movies have taught us? Communism and socialism IZ EVIL, kings are strong and brave!



Oh snap, you showed him. You have the finesse of a monarch when arguing, I gotta hand you that.

Wow. You are completely aware that American politicians are elected, and you have a dictator who is trying to change the laws so that he can reign supreme for all times, and you will defend him despite obvious and logical thought. Not that anyone takes you seriously anyway, but you had an opportunity, to,,,,, have a thought, that.... others could understand........


God damn you are an idiot. No not really, it is unfair to judge you. Freedom reigns in those that do not think and I believe you are the god of that mantra. I was a big subscriber to the Hollywood film dialog, but damn now that I have found a genius like you. I am shitting logic by the tons, and fucking happiness by the gallons.

You are a giant bubble of truth......

 

[fortified_concept]

Some of you guys really deserve each other. You have an agenda and you're unwilling to listen to any argument against it. Chavez has done positive things for his country, but his consolidation of future power, with cases that include the denial of free speech, is worrying, and his lack of action on crime, corruption and public infrastructure is concerning. The theories behind his political ideologies are not to blame, total anarchy is not a plausible system of existence in this world, and no, Chavez is definitely no anti-Western, socialistic hero either. He's a complicated man who is yet to go to one extreme over the other, and while he has been vilified in some parts of American society, he has yet to completely show himself up as the figure of evil that compares to what some say about him.

Great hustle, guys.

Problem is most of the accussations against Chavez have been orchastrated by the corporate media. I'm not saying he's perfect, he has some big flaws too, but look at the one you mentioned: denial of free speech.

The corporate media kept running this story for months about Chavez closing down a channel. Do you know that that channel spread misinformation during the coop to the point that they were claiming that Chavez has resigned when the fucking coup was happening in the country. I have videos to proove it. Personally I would have arrested those motherfuckers right after because they were clearly aiding the coup. Instead Chavez let the channel's license expire and just didn't renew it.

Yes Chavez is relatively bad at fighting corruption and crime and he has other problems too he need to fix but most of the bullshit the corporate media are spreading is pure propaganda.

 

[fortified_concept]

Wow. You are completely aware that American politicians are elected, and you have a dictator who is trying to change the laws so that he can reign supreme for all times, and you will defend him despite obvious and logical thought. Not that anyone takes you seriously anyway, but you had an opportunity, to,,,,, have a thought, that.... others could understand........


God damn you are an idiot. No not really, it is unfair to judge you. Freedom reigns in those that do not think and I believe you are the god of that mantra. I was a big subscriber to the Hollywood film dialog, but damn now that I have found a genius like you. I am shitting logic by the tons, and fucking happiness by the gallons.

You are a giant bubble of truth......

It's amazing... three paragraphs and not one single valid argument that I could reply to. It requires a special kind of skill to achieve that, congrats.

 

[C4Lukins]

It's amazing... three paragraphs and not one single valid argument that I could reply to. It requires a special kind of skill to achieve that, congrats.

I had a fourth paragraph, but I was arguing with myself whether it was worthy of typing it out just so a melon could hover in and not understand it. I went with leaving it out. If I ever get super creative and want to write a Rugrats episode, or a GI Joe film, can I look you up?


And shit, stop being so angry. I disagree with you, no need to....

 

[fortified_concept]

I had a fourth paragraph, but I was arguing with myself whether it was worthy of typing it out just so a melon could hover in and not understand it. I went with leaving it out. If I ever get super creative and want to write a Rugrats episode, or a GI Joe film, can I look you up?

Haha what to understand? At least I use actual arguments even when I'm attacking certain people in this forum. Your post was just a childish mix of very bad sarcarm and name calling, no different than your posts in the Gaming forum. Whatever I'm not "discussing" with you anymore here.

 

[Hamfam]

Problem is most of the accussations against Chavez have been orchastrated by the corporate media. I'm not saying he's perfect, he has some big flaws too, but look at the one you mentioned: denial of free speech.

The corporate media kept running this story for months about Chavez closing down a channel. Do you know that that channel spread misinformation during the coop to the point that they were claiming that Chavez has resigned when the fucking coup was happening in the country. I have videos to proove it. Personally I would have arrested those motherfuckers right after because they were clearly aiding the coup. Instead Chavez let the channel's license expire and just didn't renew it.

Yes Chavez is relatively bad at fighting corruption and crime and he has other problems too he need to fix but most of the bullshit the corporate media are spreading is pure propaganda.

Should the BBC be shut down too then? Because I just googled 'Chavez resignation' and they have tons of articles referring to Chavez resigning. All be-it from what I can gather under military pressure, he still resigned and other respected news outlets that undisputedly should stay open reported/still report the same.

 

[C4Lukins]

Haha what to understand? At least I use actual argumements even when I'm attacking certain geniuses in this forum. Your post was just a childish mix of very bad sarcarm and name calling, no different than your posts in the Gaming forum. Whatever I'm not "discussing" with you anymore here.

So you have no actual response, so you laugh and then curl up in the corner alone and afraid. That is a very strong defensive move that I have no response to. And I have tons of sarcarm left to give.

 

[iamblades]

I don't really understand the point of your semantics nor what your overall argument is. Your 'beauty of capitalism' doesn't apply to any of the real world cases I've examined. Corporations are fascist entities - there's little room for debate on this subject as they meet the structural definition and their subsequent actions speak to the ideology. Of course corporations are, allegedly, fascist entities under public control (via the government). This isnt so much the case in the United States where the government is quickly eroding and corporations are taking its place - in effect, the privatization of government.

Be it a highly centralized, obedient media... illegal aggression and invasion against foreign states... widespread militarism... xenophobia.... support for fundamentalist doctrines... attacks on human rights laws... unthinkable torture and imprisonment... support for foreign terrorist states... attempts to overthrow or subvert foreign governments... the list is endless and these are all endemic of a fascist state. You can guess, between the US and Venezuela, which is the guilty party.

and on the very sad note of the post above mine, i'm going to bed.

Ahh the benchmark of great argument skills.

"corporations are fascist entities, because I say so and you can't even debate it, so na na na, I'm right"

There are thousands of different types of corporations, run by different people, with different rules and operating styles. The only thing 'corporation' means is that a group of some people have formed a group to limit the personal liabilities of each member while doing business. I'm having a hard time understanding what makes this arrangement fascist, but apparently you just know corporations are fascist period.

I would like an explanation of what makes corporations fascist though, maybe tomorrow. Please come up with something better than 'it says corporatism in the definition for fascism!' though, and learn that just cause the root is the same, doesn't mean the word means the same. How is me and a few(or a bunch) people getting together to pool our resources to do business without individually taking all the risk fascist? It is entirely voluntary, no one has to become a member(shareholder) of a corporation, and most corporations are run as a democracy

Also, like I said before 'popular control', ie. state control, of corporations is what makes the state fascist. Business corporations are not 'under public control', except to the extent they are regulated by the government like any other business or individual. The corporation is controlled by the shareholders.

I'm not even sure a non-governmental entity can be considered fascist, as the definition of fascism is about submission to the state:

Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers individual and other societal interests subordinate to the interests of the state.

Seems like in a fascist state, the business corporation would have to be run for the good of the state, rather than the good of the shareholders. Seems like PDVSA is a more accurate representation of the fascist 'corporatism' than, say Microsoft or Google.

Again, I'm not saying that all the lobbying BS that goes on in the US is a positive, it isn't. But it isn't corporatism, and it definitely isn't fascism.

 

[Giganticus]

I've said it before, so I'll say it again. If Communism is defined by most as what happened in the USSR despite not conforming to the actual dictionary definition, then Fascism is defined as what happened in Fascist Italy. Specifically, the part where business regulatory bodies were controlled by Corporations serving their own Corporate interests. AKA, the Corporate State.

EDIT: plus Spain's King is one step away from being a card carrying Fascist, and his father started a civil war to promote his fascist ideals, so...

 

[Forsete]

Chavez is awesome. Keep on trucking dude!

 

[C4Lukins]

I've said it before, so I'll say it again. If Communism is defined by most as what happened in the USSR despite not conforming to the actual dictionary definition, then Fascism is defined as what happened in Fascist Italy. Specifically, the part where business regulatory bodies were controlled by Corporations serving their own Corporate interests. AKA, the Corporate State.

EDIT: plus Spain's King is one step away from being a card carrying Fascist, and his father started a civil war to promote his fascist ideals, so...

Your description of Fascist Italy is completely ridiculous compared to the reality of the situation. It was not just a couple of evil corporations doing some ill shit. It would be great if it was that simple.

 

[iamblades]

I've said it before, so I'll say it again. If Communism is defined by most as what happened in the USSR despite not conforming to the actual dictionary definition, then Fascism is defined as what happened in Fascist Italy. Specifically, the part where business regulatory bodies were controlled by Corporations serving their own Corporate interests. AKA, the Corporate State.

EDIT: plus Spain's King is one step away from being a card carrying Fascist, and his father started a civil war to promote his fascist ideals, so...

Well USSR isn't the only example of communism that we have (though they've pretty much all failed in similar ways), and Italy isn't the only example of a fascist government that we have.

The corporations in fascist Italy were part of the state, they weren't private businesses bribing the state for favors, as is the case in the US. I agree the second situation is bad, but it is not what happened in fascist Italy, and definitely isn't what happened in Nazi Germany. FDR's New Deal programs were more like Italian Fascism than the current situation is.

 

[fortified_concept]

Should the BBC be shut down too then? Because I just googled 'Chavez resignation' and they have tons of articles referring to Chavez resigning. All be-it from what I can gather under military pressure, he still resigned and other respected news outlets that undisputedly should stay open reported/still report the same.

One thing the US goverment is good at is propaganda, so BBC should check their fucking sources before spreading bullshit, that's for sure. As for Chavez he agreed to surrender only if the junta guaranteed the safety of the people inside the goverment building that was surrounded by the military. The rest is bullshit spread by the collaborationists of the Junta: the US goverment and the Venezuelan rich elite.

And no BBC shouldn't be shut down for being a victim of the US propaganda, the Venezuelan channel that knew what was going on because -oh well- a coup was happening in their country (you know when it happens because there are men with military uniforms and guns surrounding goverment buildings and arresting people) and chose to hide the truth should be shut down though. There's a difference between being a bad journalist (BBC) and being a paid off journalist that lies to the people when a fucking military coup is happening.

 

[Oikistes]

EDIT: plus Spain's King is one step away from being a card carrying Fascist, and his father started a civil war to promote his fascist ideals, so...

Could you please explain how someone who played such an important role in bringing democracy to Spain and who disarmed the 1981 coup d'etate is almost a card carrying Fascist? And how exactly was Juan Carlos' father responsible for the Civil War instead of Franco, Mola and Sanjurjo?

 

[Starchasing]

I am Spaniard and a republican but i for once applaud what the king did. Spain has been very generous to Venezuela and you just dont go around insulting people.

Chavez has called Aznar , our former president , a fascist several times before that meeting. Why didnt he insult our current president or our king? He probably did not expect Zapatero to step up and defend his form political enemy or our king to ask him to shut up.

Why did he insult our former president wich no longer holds any power? I think he was just trying to keep up with his image of Robin Hood

 

[Green Shinobi]

There are thousands of different types of corporations, run by different people, with different rules and operating styles. The only thing 'corporation' means is that a group of some people have formed a group to limit the personal liabilities of each member while doing business. I'm having a hard time understanding what makes this arrangement fascist, but apparently you just know corporations are fascist period.

Calling them fascist is obviously a stretch, my the problem is that they are absolutely slaves to the bottom line/stockholders, which leads to cost-cutting measures such as Taco Bell firing an exemplary employee in order to replace her with someone making much less, or studios trying to keep writers from getting royalties on the stuff they've written, or insurance claims people getting bonuses based on how many policies they cancel.

The massive shrinking of America's middle class is evidence enough of this. The people in upper management get a disproportionate share of a company's earnings compared to those in production and lower management. There's no reason for top executives to be earning millions while the median income in America dips closer and closer to a sub-30,000 level.

 

[Cerebral Assassin]

Why did he insult our former president wich no longer holds any power?

Maybe because Aznar was a right-wing member of the "coalition of the willing" who lied to try and save his job, whilst Zapatero pulled out of Iraq, removed facist statues(which seems like the sort of things Chavez would like)

 

[etiolate]

I find it funny that a fascist (Chavez) attempts to slander someone by calling them a "fascist". It is like Chavez does not understand the concept of irony. Another weirdo going around accusing people of being the very thing he is as if people are not smart enough see through that thin smoke screen.

What Chavez is doing is basically a stunt to create a flash image to be conveyed in his homeland of him standing against an 'evil oppressor' that is also the old ruling force. Back home the criticisms of Chavez and the context will be taken out and you will likely get a flash image of Chavez saying fascist and looking tough.

Think of how Scientology conveys their confrontations with critics in selectively edited clips, biting someone into saying something and then taking out the context and delivering a tight, clean and manipulative package to their own group. This will likely be the same thing.

 

[Oikistes]

Maybe because Aznar was a right-wing member of the "coalition of the willing" who lied to try and save his job, whilst Zapatero pulled out of Iraq, removed facist statues(which seems like the sort of things Chavez would like)

Still, Chavez had been politely asked to stop insulting Aznar the day before. It is not a matter of political affiliations, it is a matter of respecting a reasonable petition formulated by the Spanish delegation. And, on top of that, he was continuously interrupting Zapatero in his speech. Chavez' behaviour was clearly out of place.

And as much as I dislike Aznar, saying a snake is more human than him was not something someone in Chavez' position should be saying. You know, being the President of a country and such.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

If you prefer Chavez' politics or not, that wasn't acceptable what he called Aznar.
He's like an internet troll in real life. :x

 

[fmcato]

I've you prefer Chavez' politics or not, that wasn't acceptable what he called Aznar.
He's like an internet troll in real life. :x

Not to mention he wouldn't let Zapatero continue, even with his microphone turned off. That was a total lack of respect too.

 

[Saoh]

The enabling law was passed by a VOTE in the Venezuelan National Assembly. It lasts for 18 months. Chavez has already had the enabling law twice before and has never abused it. He's the FIFTH president to use it. Moreover, it's enshrined in the 1961 CONSTITUTION. So it's entirely CONSTITUTIONAL, with past PRECEDENT, and it was VOTED for by those ELECTED by the people.

He last used it in 2001 to forcibly kick out US oil corporations so that he could nationalize Venezuela's oil and return the profits to his people. What a horrible dictator.

Here are some of the restrictions on the enabling law:

- He's bound to govern within the limits of the law under the provisions of the 1999 Constitution of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela.

- He has no power to harm civil or human rights

- He's restricted to areas authorized by the National Assembly.

- He'll address only internal areas unrelated to relations with other countries.

- He has no authority to expropriate private property nor can he.

- The democratically elected National Assembly can change or rescind decree-passed laws by majority vote. Chavez's 18 month authority doesn't override or interfere with citizen, judiciary or National Assembly "check and balancing" of presidential powers.

- The Venezuelan Constitution empowers the people to rescind all laws by popular referendum if 10% or more registered voters request a referendum vote be held, and for laws passed by decree if only 5% want it.

What a horrible dictator.

:lol :lol :lol :lol you're so full of crap, oh god :lol . and I live in Venezuela so don't even try to debate with me.

 

[WrathOfOtaibah]

Dies Irae is an 18 year old Canadian. He doesn't know shit about shit when it comes to world politics. Just bright eyed, bushy tailed naive idealism.

Its like the people who praise Fidel up and down, ignoring the thousands of people who are willing to risk their lives (and many do lose them) trying to go on rafts to the evil, imperialist United States. That or spend huge amounts of time in squalid prisons in one of the most illiberal nations in the world.

 

[APF]

Chavez is a troll, and his internet defenders are just fanboys. There's a reason my first post in this thread is eerily-similar to the posts of f_c &c. As I've said before, the great thing about GAF's anti-Chavezism is that it was entirely the opposite just a short while ago, and has only changed 180 degrees due entirely to Chavez' own reprehensible actions. Of course, there's always that lower 10-whatever%, that's intellectual and political backwash, who will always defend the asshat because that's iconoclastic or they're so completely brainwashed into their ideology they can't even put their pants on straight.

 

[Enron]

I think Fortified_Concept must be the only one left on the forum that defends Chavez (other than Des Irae). He rules by decree, seizes massive amounts of property and wealth in the name of the state, and silences any criticism. But its ok, and we are brainwashed or something, because he helps the poor and was democratically elected.

 

[Relix]

Wow, some of the socialists and communisms on this forum are VERY close minded, always throwing mud at Hollywood or the media... well friends, a lot of people truly read, and I am basing my opinion on all that.

Capitalism for the win... if I work and studied hard I want to have a better life and own everything I want, not share it with other people and live in a slump like some of you guys seem like doing (or haven't really experienced what is living like that, because its obvious you guys only read and haven't had the opportunity to live through such stuff). Look at China!! Great example, one great economy at the verge of civil war. Last time I heard China wasn't democratic. The Soviet Union when to the shitter as well..... it was not democratic or capitalist.

Oh well... keep taking your drugs so you deny the truth every day... Capitalism/Democracy is the way, not perfect (humans are greedy by nature, and this cannot be denied), but it will take shape to form a better system in the future.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Hey look it's the usual americans who are so brainwashed by their corporate media that prefer to defend a fucking monarch than a democratically elected leader because he's a socialist.

no one is defending a monarch. chavez is a democratically elected leader, but he acts like a child. he has absolutely no tact whatsoever, and acts like he is the king of latin america.

 

[megateto]

I'd only like to say that I agree with what other Spaniards have already said regarding our king and what Zapatero did.

That and also that it seems that most of the comments done regarding our history are basically wrong (what the fuck had Juan Carlos's dad had to do with Franco, apart from being pissed off big time by him) and that nobody went to jail for the cartoon.

 

[Enron]

no one is defending a monarch. chavez is a democratically elected leader, but he acts like a child. he has absolutely no tact whatsoever, and acts like he is the king of latin america.

It could be said that President Chavez acts more like a king than the King of Spain does.

 

[Enron]

Your post was just a childish mix of very bad sarcarm and name calling, no different than your posts in the Gaming forum. Whatever I'm not "discussing" with you anymore here.

Is he REALLY calling out other posters for "name calling"?

This is bizzaroGAF

 

[darkiguana]

One thing the US goverment is good at is propaganda, so BBC should check their fucking sources before spreading bullshit, that's for sure. As for Chavez he agreed to surrender only if the junta guaranteed the safety of the people inside the goverment building that was surrounded by the military. The rest is bullshit spread by the collaborationists of the Junta: the US goverment and the Venezuelan rich elite.

And no BBC shouldn't be shut down for being a victim of the US propaganda, the Venezuelan channel that knew what was going on because -oh well- a coup was happening in their country (you know when it happens because there are men with military uniforms and guns surrounding goverment buildings and arresting people) and chose to hide the truth should be shut down though. There's a difference between being a bad journalist (BBC) and being a paid off journalist that lies to the people when a fucking military coup is happening.

So a tv station should be shut down because it got its facts wrong and supported the opposition...WOW. There are no words.....

 

[Walshicus]

^^

Europe is just about all capitalist now, just capitalist with high tax rates, lots of regulations and really generous entitlement programs. Which is all fine and good, except the balance sheet for most of that stuff makes social security and medicare look well funded. Norway and a couple of other countries may have the means to pay for that system for a while, but I think most of those systems will be bankrupt in less than 50 years.

Um, no?

It's not surprising that so many of you are throwing around terminology without actually understanding the meaning behind it, but it is still lamentable.

The funny thing for me is that both free market "capitalism" and command economy "socialism" end up with pretty much the same result when enacted in real world conditions; inefficient monopolies. Capitalism relies on perfect freedom of movement for all factors and information to avoid market power building up, but those requisites are little more than the fantasies neo-liberals. Socialism relies on... again perfect information and an unrealistic maleability of the labour factor in particular, only this time the efficient monopoly is what is strived for. They're both fuck ups are far as ideologies go, except as far as the delicate union of them is concerned.

Name me one major economy of the world that doesn't NEED a government agency to regulate competition. Name me one major economy that hasn't reserved at least one service to public provision away from "market forces". Similarly name me one major economy that hasn't embraced market forces in non-essential areas.

Ours are all mixed economies. What you people think is an ongoing ideological clash is in fact just limp-wristed slapping over how many micrometres to shift the point of balance; "Is health a mostly public good or a mostly private good?", "Is maternity leave a right or a privilige?"... that sort of thing.

 

[rezuth]

AHem, just some quick links:

http://news.google.com.pr/news/url?...e/oilRpt/idUKN1040310420071110&cid=1122934727
http://news.google.com.pr/news/url?...tant.com/2007/7143/714303.html&cid=1123363192
http://news.google.com.pr/news/url?...tics.org/archives/2007/11/09/125201.php&cid=0
http://news.google.com.pr/news/url?...ain.cu/2007/1109fotosfidel.htm&cid=1123414287 :lol :lol :lol

Those are just some quick examples that people inside the country are noticing the stuff he's doing. Closing TV stations on a whim is just the beginning, soon it will be a Cuba all over again where people can't even browse the internet. Just search Venezuela news, you will find some stuff to keep you reading. If Chavez stays in Venezuela, the country is going downhill faster than it is.

Socialism is not communism.
Fidel is a close companion of Hugo since they help eachother and watch the back of the other. It's a "If you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours." situation between them.
The demostrations you are talking about is not a big deal and its only some small percentage of the population. You people only see what you like to see.
Chavez lets the people pick if they want it or not. Chavez was the one who learned people about their rights and gave them rights. He brought democrazy into Venezuela which had been oppressed for so long by people which was getting backrubs from USA.

How do you feel that in 2003 55% of all people in Venezuela were poor compared with only 31% in 2006? Even the people living in extreme poor conditions went down from 25% to only 9.1%
How about the fact that in 1998 only 252 000 kids could get free meals at schools compared with 1 800 000 kids today.
In 1998 Venezuela only had 1628 doctors compared with 19571 in 2007.
67% of the population in Venezuela now can get food daily.

I can go on and on...

 

[Doubledex]

:lol

Respect the king, bitch.

.

LOL, Chavez should be killed, raped, and then thrown over to a petroleums pool with some Bolivar gold or something.

.

 

[Alien Bob]

It should be said that I hate Chavez because I spent many nights watching softcore porn on the TV channel he took down (RCTV) when I lived on Aruba. Also, the hours and hours he would spend talking and reading from a little book with a giant paintings of Bolivar behind him made him look like a real douchebag. Also, the ass threatened to invade the island, and though I don't really give a shit about it any more, my mom still lives there, and no one threatens my mommy.


All the illegal immigrants from there (WHAT A GREAT COUNTRY THOUGH, RIGHT?) make for a lot of cheap labor though! Hurrah for Chavez!

 

[fortified_concept]

So a tv station should be shut down because it got its facts wrong and supported the opposition...WOW. There are no words.....

HAHAHAHA, you mean that supporting a military coup against a democratically elected goverment isn't a reason enough for it to shut down a station? Are you freaking serious? There are no words indeed...

 

[Particle Physicist]

HAHAHAHA, you mean that supporting a military coup against a democratically elected goverment isn't a reason enough for it to shut down a station? Are you freaking serious? There are no words indeed...

so broadcasting a news story.. that pretty much every other major news station around the world broadcasted as well.. equals supporting a military coup?

not supporting chavez != supporting a coup

 

[Relix]

Its useless to argue against the brainwashed lefties here. Hell I was even called a peasant, thought that feels better than being called an asshole =P. Still, it's a known fact for the last 150 years: Communism or Socialism just leads to the shit bin.

How would you guys feel if you study for 5 years (if you can even study), try and land a job, work, and then have your money taken away to be shared? Yes, Capitalism works in a similar way, but people can move up in a 'ladder', not stay living the same for all their freaking lives under control of a crazy asshole (like Chavez is). Imagine that because of a whim, the TV station you worked is closed?

The media is free speech, in media you should be able to say whatever you want! Yeah, you can call upon a coup!!! In a democracy you will get scolded bla bla blah, but a dictator (like Chavez is becoming) can eliminate that free speech (look at Cuba).

You can also imagine NeoGAF getting closed because there are communists or socialists or anything, by let's say Chavez. Free speech is important my dear friends, open your closed minds. Stop accusing the media of brainwashing. Or just shut up and read your Marx books, worship Che Guevara, kiss Fidel's butt, put a shrine with Hitler as good... etc. (and yes... what i just said is FREE SPEECH, like it or not, thank you).

 

[Zozz]

Well, my rational conclusion is that what Chavez is doing is leading to communism. What, you live in Venezuela or something?

Chavez needs to be killed, hes going to take full control of the country. If he gets away with these things, he is going to have full control over the children in Venezuela, if he chooses to take away kids from families; he will do so. He's going to be the one person who decides who can be a governor or a mayor in Venezuela.

Hes taken away several lands from our family, that have been passed down years. He is taking full control over the country. He is stopping trades with the U.S on several things, much of which we use to cook food from Venezuela that cannot be found here.

I have family over there, I hear about all these things every week. The man will be a total dictator over the country. He was elected back then but what he is doing is just giving a few percentage of the poor people, food and supplies for them to come out to support him when he wishes. He is giving money away to other people, he is bringing Cubans in to the country to replace Venezuelan labor. The country has gone to shits, if you don't live there or have family or friends that you hear all these things about, you can't understand at all. Unless you were the ones going through the hardship, there is no way you can comprehend it at all.

so to anyone who is supporting this guy, all I can say is that you have no idea what is going on, you can only hear so much from the media.

 

[Relix]

Above me is true hands on experience... what some of you pro Chavez/Communist/Socialism/whatever haven't had. Live in one of those countries for a eyar or two and then talk =), its easy to say things without having experienced them.

 

[fortified_concept]

so broadcasting a news story.. that pretty much every other major news station around the world broadcasted as well.. equals supporting a military coup?

not supporting chavez != supporting a coup

Dude... seriously wtf. A military coup was happening with tanks and soldiers in their own country. Do you honestly think they didn't know about it? And who do you think gave them the info that Chavez was supposedly resigning?

 

[Jacobi]

:lol :lol :lol :lol you're so full of crap, oh god :lol . and I live in Venezuela so don't even try to debate with me.

Is it true that Chavez has a own TV show? Read that in the papers once...

 

[Relix]

Is it true that Chavez has a own TV show? Read that in the papers once...

Yup... I think its called "Alo Presidente...", something like Hello President. Yup... must be a fun show seeing such an ahole speak =P

 

[itxaka]

Chavez hates America and democracy, which despite how ridiculous and unfortunate his thoughts and words are, he is very compelling to a certain percentage of the public who is incapable of producing their own thoughts and scenarios. Thank God we have free thinking individuals who can ape the words that others produced for them in such a direct manner with such vigor and originality. Chavez, you are a humor...

Yes he hates democracy, that´s why there is elections in Venezuela...
You are talking about free thinking while you just say a total stupid statement probably readed from a newspaper or a magazine? jesus, your are really stupid.

Dies Irae is an 18 year old Canadian. He doesn't know shit about shit when it comes to world politics.

and you are who?

Why did he insult our former president wich no longer holds any power? I think he was just trying to keep up with his image of Robin Hood

Because Ansar used every oportunity he had to call him a fascist(yes him), a dictator, and so much more things.
Why a President will call another president things like that? Because they hate each other.


BTW see how nice are the channels opposite to Chavez? Liying during a coup d´etat is a serious thing and helping the people doing one is more serious.

The anti-Chávez commercial stations repeatedly showed only a small part of the scene , of pro-Chávez supporters firing, claiming they were firing at unarmed demonstrators. This footage was also widely screened in the US to boost support for the Bush administration's backing of the coup. However, an amateur cameraperson captured footage that revealed the gunmen were not firing at any demonstrators, since the street below was empty except for an armoured police vehicle which had previously been firing at the bridge. This footage was included in the documentary The Revolution Will Not Be Televised. Cabrices, Peñalver, Atencio and Rivera argue that they were, in fact, returning fire at unknown snipers firing towards them. A very thorough reconstruction of the events is the basis for the film Llaguno Bridge: Keys to a Massacre which vindicates this version of events.

Carmona's installation as President generated a widespread uprising in support of Chávez that was suppressed by the Metropolitan Police. It also led to a demonstration outside the Presidential Palace by hundreds of thousands of people. The Presidential Guard, loyal to Chávez and cheered on by the demonstrators, retook the palace and the rebellion collapsed. Since Chávez was being held in a secret location, the presidency was assumed for several hours by Vice President Diosdado Cabello until Chávez was reinstated.

However, it took some time to make this known. At the beginning of the coup, the dissident military had occupied Venezolana de Televisión, the state television channel, and the private media also refused to bring the news. Despite the fact that tens of thousands of people had taken to the streets around the palace, Carmona declared that there had been some disturbances, but things were now under control. Only by 8 o'clock that evening the reinstalled government managed to inform the people through the television channels. Because there were difficulties getting Chávez back, to restore order, two hours later the vice-president was sworn in as interim president on television. Chávez returned the next day.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Dude... seriously wtf. A military coup was happening with tanks and soldiers in their own country. Do you honestly think they didn't know about it? And who do you think gave them the info that Chavez was supposedly resigning?

exactly, a military coup was happening in their own country. do you realize how hectic that can be? do you really think its easy to get concrete info when such a thing is happening? the only thing they are guilty of is jumping on a story without doing some thorough fact checking. If a station should be closed for that reason, then every single station in the world should be closed, because they are bound to get some story wrong.

tell me, why is it that the only anti-chavez station was the only station closed?