[Digital Foundry] Metal Gear Solid Delta - PS5/ PS5 Pro Tech Review - A Beautiful UE5 Remake With Frame-Rate Issues
- Thread starter Lunatic_Gamer
- Start date
- News Analysis Review
Is PSSR worse than FSR1, 2 or 3?
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AO is the least of the game's issues. The rock textures, and other world models are just dated as fuck. They lack self shadowing but also fail to simply have the minute level of detail we have come to expect from UE5 games.
I am sorry but no game this gen should have rocks that look like this. Devoid of detail, shadows, and AO. Ive been shitting on Mafia for the last couple of weeks but even that game doesnt have visuals this dated.
here is mafia, one of the least impressive UE5 titles out there. I expected better lighting and nanite rocks from this game, but its clear its still a generational leap over DS2.
screen space shadow like days gone add a tons of depth to the micro details on the ground, definitely would have help Decima. Currently Decima lacks a more advance GI solution like Lumen and super dense geometric details like nanite anmd virtual shadowmap from UE5. It mostly running on PS4 era conventional raster tech being push to its absolute limit and runs well and has an excellent scaler compare to H2 at launch with super dated SMAA T2X with tons of shimmering until they updated it with a more modern TAA. It can push very complex geometry but pop in and draw distance are not great. Sony 1st party output has been poor this gen so we don't really see any new tech wizardy like we saw in PS3 and PS4 era, mostly interative upgrade
Bojji
Gold Member
It's much better.
Pelao
Member
The only shitty port I'm willing to buy from Konami is when they eventually re-release MGS4 because I want to believe that it's impossible for it to run even worse than it does on PS3. But when this shitty remake offers a worse experience than simply playing the old remaster on Xbox, then it's an easy pass for me.
YeulEmeralda
Linux User
Oh well look on the bright side the PS6 will brute force these games just as PC already does today.
Lagspike_exe
Member
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't FSR2 and beyond Temporal, not Spatial?
Lagspike_exe
Member
I call everything non-ML "spatial".
kevboard
Member
I mean, technically FSR1 is the only upscaler in that list.
DLSS, PSSR, FSR2/3/4 are all temporal reconstruction tech.
it's just that people call them upscalers colloquially. but they aren't.
upscaling means adding pixels to an already rendered image to fit the screen. reconstruction methods like the ones above don't do that, they instead use information of multiple frames and from data the engine gives them to fill gaps before the image is actually put together.
they are more like intelligent interlacing, or more extreme forms of checkerboarding, combined with TAA rather than upscalers.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Say what you will about performance, nanite is the real deal. Looks at these lemons. The self shadowing along with almost photorealistic materials is why i love nanite and am willing to swallow my pride and play at 30 fps.
Also, look at this draw distance. Again, im not overly impressed by Mafia, but the draw distance is fantastic. Compare it to the DS2 shots posted here on the last page.
This Tom Morgan review was trash btw. Barely any non-comparison side by side footage, but I thought this area looked great. Again, the shadows are fantastic especially since there are so many of them, and lumen is simply beautiful here. I think this is one of those games that will impress many here once it launches.
Also, look at this draw distance. Again, im not overly impressed by Mafia, but the draw distance is fantastic. Compare it to the DS2 shots posted here on the last page.
This Tom Morgan review was trash btw. Barely any non-comparison side by side footage, but I thought this area looked great. Again, the shadows are fantastic especially since there are so many of them, and lumen is simply beautiful here. I think this is one of those games that will impress many here once it launches.
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DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
PSSR is pretty good. I think its used in death stranding 2. My only issue with it is with artifacts on geometry such as bushes and long grass.
There's certain lighting in death stranding 2 coupled with the foliage that makes it break up.
Saying this, id rather have PSSR over any other scaler on console as it manages a decent job otherwise.
My issue with this game is framerate. Unacceptable from the devs.
Maybe if the pro had a bit more grunt so it could resolve from a higher resolution then that would be ok?
Wasn't the ps4 pro like double the power of a ps4. This thing is like 45 percent.
Im happy with mine just for death stranding 2. Which I know sounds daft but im a big fan.
There's certain lighting in death stranding 2 coupled with the foliage that makes it break up.
Saying this, id rather have PSSR over any other scaler on console as it manages a decent job otherwise.
My issue with this game is framerate. Unacceptable from the devs.
Maybe if the pro had a bit more grunt so it could resolve from a higher resolution then that would be ok?
Wasn't the ps4 pro like double the power of a ps4. This thing is like 45 percent.
Im happy with mine just for death stranding 2. Which I know sounds daft but im a big fan.
Corporal.Hicks
Member
The YT compression blurs the fine details in these mafia screenshots, and it seems texture filtering was turned to the lowest settings. That's how mafia the old country looks on my PC with default settings (epic settings for everything except shadows).You're also selecting images... and it's not even an open-world game.
This game also has ugly parts... the images below are on PC at maximum settings... it's not even open-world.
This is an open world...
It's even more impressive...
1440p 60fps PS5
Mafia the old country is good looking game but has lighting inconsistences. It often has incredible lighting (especially indoors), but sometimes objects like cars or certain trees are lit with flat lighting (missing indirect shadows). Also nanite rocks in mafia the old country arnt that impressive compared to other UE5 games (especially hellblade 2), but mafia is a game with much bigger scale. Also nanite rocks in mafia still look better compared to the best looking games that doesnt use nanite.
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Surely it's not normal to have the fps worse with 45% of more raw gpu power. Anyway it's Virtuos not new to weird stuff.
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Corporal.Hicks
Member
The lemons in Uncharted 4, one of the best looking PS4 games. People often say that the PS5's graphics haven't improved much, but if you look closely at the quality of the assets, you'll see that there's a big difference.Say what you will about performance, nanite is the real deal. Looks at these lemons. The self shadowing along with almost photorealistic materials is why i love nanite and am willing to swallow my pride and play at 30 fps.
Also, look at this draw distance. Again, im not overly impressed by Mafia, but the draw distance is fantastic. Compare it to the DS2 shots posted here on the last page.
This Tom Morgan review was trash btw. Barely any non-comparison side by side footage, but I thought this area looked great. Again, the shadows are fantastic especially since there are so many of them, and lumen is simply beautiful here. I think this is one of those games that will impress many here once it launches.
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Cheaper.
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
Any news on the PC version yet?
Feels wrong that I am not buying this day one. Its one of my favourite games.
If I can get locked 60FPS with a 4090 or 9070 XT ill pick it up.
Feels wrong that I am not buying this day one. Its one of my favourite games.
If I can get locked 60FPS with a 4090 or 9070 XT ill pick it up.
Bojji
Gold Member
The lemons in Uncharted 4, one of the best looking PS4 games. People often say that the PS5's graphics haven't improved much, but if you look closely at the quality of the assets, you'll see that there's a big difference.
And current gen one of the best looking games, FF Rebirth!
Cloud is not impressed
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Corporal.Hicks
Member
Square Enix dropped the ball. Rebirth's assets are low poly by today's standards, and this is especially noticeable when compared to UE5 games that use Nanite. MGS Delta may run at sub 60fps on the PS5 console, but based on what I saw it has incredible assets.
Bojji
Gold Member
Exactly, UE5 is one gen ahead in this department thanks to nanite. Random Korean UE5 game:
I'm hungry looking at this...
They used A LOT of polygons in this game:
Everything is round.
But of course this has a cost, UE5 games require 4070ti-4080 class GPUs to achieve 60fps with all bells and whistles (but maybe on high, no epic) with at least 1080p - 4k reconstruction. Regular PS5 is more than 2x less powerful than that.
Diego Brasil
Neo Member
First year of PSSR vs. 1 year of DLSS?
A well-applied PSSR (we have several examples) can equal and even surpass DLSS.
For example, The Last of Us Part 1 is sharper in motion and removes ghosting and image blur in motion (as the whole point of AI upscaling is to remove ghosting).
People will say that Part 1's DLSS wasn't the latest version... even so, the compared version had already been on the market for years.
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Corporal.Hicks
Member
First year of PSSR vs. 1 year of DLSS?
A well-applied PSSR (we have several examples) can equal and even surpass DLSS.
For example, The Last of Us Part 1 is sharper in motion and removes ghosting and image blur in motion (as the whole point of AI upscaling is to remove ghosting).
People will say that Part 1's DLSS wasn't the latest version... even so, the compared version had already been on the market for years.
I saw that DLSS ghosting in TLOU1 part 1, but it was extremely rare and not to mention I never saw this problem in other games with DLSS support, so that TLOU1 example was literally the worst case scenario (and BTW. DLSS4 fixed this ghosting problem in this game).
In some raster games like TLOU1 PSSR can offer similar image quality to DLSS, so PSSR is not that bad, but it seems PSSR has noise problems in UE5 games with real time GI. Sony will work on improving PSSR on the PS5Pro, but someting tells me they will use FSR4/5 on the PS6.
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Bojji
Gold Member
First year of PSSR vs. 1 year of DLSS?
A well-applied PSSR (we have several examples) can equal and even surpass DLSS.
For example, The Last of Us Part 1 is sharper in motion and removes ghosting and image blur in motion (as the whole point of AI upscaling is to remove ghosting).
People will say that Part 1's DLSS wasn't the latest version... even so, the compared version had already been on the market for years.
I'm tired seeing these gifs...
Game used DLSS D preset that introduced that ghosting (preset C was free of that). Even without updating DLSS you could still change preset from D to C to avoid that. But with simple bump from 3.1 to 3.8 (latest at the time) you get preset E that is the best DLSS 3 has to offer:
This is with 4x zoom.
Last of Us is the best PSSR implementation, and even in that DF video they say that DLLS is better in many aspects.
But even looking at that example and assuming that DLSS was on par with PSSR in this game, this is only about TLoU. In MANY other games PSSR looks much worse and introduce issues that aren't there with other reconstruction tech.
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Toots
Member
It looks a lot like those "whatever movie or video game" reimagined by AI.Still watching, but anyone else likes the yellow filter of the original?
The game takes place in 1964 and I recall at the time of the release, I liked the color palette because it reminded me of an old film with worn out colors.
Take something with an art direction and make it the blandest possible but hyper realistic.
Diego Brasil
Neo Member
It doesn't matter if it's a new version or not...
It was DLSS!!!!
which has been on the market for years... and in motion, PSSR had better resolution and no ghosting...
Was DLSS in its first year as good as it is today?
We have several examples where PSSR was well implemented... this was in the first year of the technology...
Final Fantasy 7, R,
Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart:
Demon's Souls,
Stellar Blade,
The Last of Us Part 2,
The Last of Us Part 1,
The First Descendant,
The Crew, Motorfest,
Battlefield 6, Beta Aberto,
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
A Quality mode would have solved 90% of the games problems on ps5 pro for those who can deal with it.
How does this game not have a Quality (30 fps mode) AT ALL??
We can't stand for shit like this as console gamers where the dev give us no goddamn options and the only option given is an unstable framerate hovering in the 40 range!
we need to not give Konami our money when they treat us like this
How does this game not have a Quality (30 fps mode) AT ALL??
We can't stand for shit like this as console gamers where the dev give us no goddamn options and the only option given is an unstable framerate hovering in the 40 range!
we need to not give Konami our money when they treat us like this
Bojji
Gold Member
DLSS 2.0 was the best when it launched in 2020, and it was still the best when Xess launched, PSSR launched and FSR4 launched (but DLSS3 is actually a bit worse, only DLSS4 wins). DLSS NEVER had issues that PSSR have in games since launch, most games you mentioned have good PSSR implementations. But look at Avatar, SH2, COD 2024, Jedi Survivor, DD2, HL and few others, they have issues (mostly with RT or AO)...
You can launch original Death Stranding from 2020 and see very good image quality with DLSS 2.0. You can also upgrade it to DLSS3 to see better image quality or even up it to DLSS4! At the same time you can't do shit to games with bad PSSR implementations...
30fps should be there on Pro. Motherfuckers think that they know better and that consumers want ~45FPS below VRR range instead of locked 30fps.
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
Don't....they also lied to us about this game. Used it to help sell ps5 pros by advertising with phony gameplay vids on "the pro". Producer of game in an interview even talked about all the "optomization they've done to add higher fps and more detailed visuals in both a performance AND quality mode"
That was apparently all lies. To not have a quality mode while giving us only one option at a low res, with noise from pssr and lumens gi, at a worse framerate than ps5 base! That's crazy.
Even if the assets are next gen and lighting is more advanced than most games, if you care about image quality and steady framerate u will be bummed playing this.
They want $70 for it too ...can't even give Pro owners a decent option. Virtuos scammed us once already with Oblivion remastered which is never going to be fixed either. Most of blame is of course on Konami.
Infuriating situation. How about don't lie to people and give us the bare minimum performance and quality modes?
The Pro
Diego Brasil
Neo Member
DLSS had several problems in its first year.
It still exists in some games (a few, of course, but it does).
The Silent Hill remake was horrible with DLSS.
People even complained here at Neogaf, as well as in threads on other sites.
Bojji
Gold Member
DLSS had several problems in its first year.
It still exists in some games (a few, of course, but it does).
The Silent Hill remake was horrible with DLSS.
People even complained here at Neogaf, as well as in threads on other sites.
Game was patched by devs quicky and even without that players could manually change DLSS or preset.
Game launched with old (by the time) DLSS and with infamous preset D I mentioned earlier... This is a fuck up from devs and not DLSS itself. On consoles when that happens you are out of options.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
lol here is me running cyberpunk path traced at 720p internal resolution. Tell me if it looks as bad as the trashy implementation of PSSR we have seen in virtually every game with ray tracing or realtime GI.
AI upscalers like PSSR, FSR4 and DLSS are literally designed to upscale from insanely low resolutions like 720p and make them look stable on a 4k screen. Any upscaler can make a 1440p or 1512p image look good. Checkerboarding on the PS4 Pro worked well because it was upscaling from well above 1440p resolution. PSSR in the games you mentioned above looks good because its using 1440p to upscale to 4k.
But the entire point of PSSR was to take games with next gen features that were pushing the resolution down to 720p and make them look like cyberpunk above. It's not doing that.
here is me running cyberpunk at 4k dlss performance. Or 1080p internal resolution.
This is what MGS, Avatar, Star Wars outlaws, AC shadows and other PS5 Pro games shouldve looked like. Because 4k dlss performance is roughly the same as 4kcb or FSR quality. But it doesnt. It's because Cerny himself said that they fucked up and need to integrate with FSR4. Not sure why the fuck we need to defend everything sony when the principal architect admitted they fucked it up.
It's something we saw in many games at launch. A lot of games just shipped with one 60 fps mode. I almost think that the fact that so many games only shipped with 60 fps pro modes was because it was a directive by sony. or maybe people are trying to save money by not making too many modes they would need to test. You have to understand that devs nowadays need to make 3 modes for the xbox consoles alone. And now you have two playstations as well. Thats 3 more modes, you are asking them for one more. So 7 modes. We went from 2 modes for 2 consoles to 7-8 modes for 4 consoles. That's still a lot of QA work. im not surprised they would cut corners.
I do agree that a quality mode at 4k PSSR performance at 30 fps with everything maxed the fuck out should have been added. Look at the Path tracing footage above at DLSS performance. It looks clean and crisp. I think the problem is that PSSR isnt playing well with Lumen right now. Even at 1080p internal resolution so the 720p internal resolutions for the 60 fps modes are going to look even worse.
I keep saying this but devs just need to drop these 60 fps modes on consoles. The resolution is dropping too low and the new AI upscaler is trash at the moment for resolutions below 1440p especially in ray traced games. But the base consoles should only focus on one mode. Some gamers will hate it, and skip the game, but just look at this thread. People saw the poor 60 fps implementation and are skipping the game anyway.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Buy a PC man. Only paid $50 for the game (no tax) and i dont have to pay $85 a year just to play online either.
You end up saving a lot of money.
PS5 is basically a scam right now. My dualsense which sony fixed for stick drift just a year ago went out of warranty and almost immediately after, the stick drift reappeared. now they are refusing to fix it and expect me to buy a $70 controller. $70 for something that should be $20 max.
Im just glad i bought the pro a couple of months ago so i dont have to pay the extra $50 surcharge. its just fifty but it feels so scummy it wouldve completely put me off from buying the console in the future.
A 5070 is only $500 nowadays. Pair it up with a $150 AMD cpu and you can make a PC for around $1,200 that will be at least 50% more powerful than the PS5 and can do path tracing. It will have an AI upscaler that will actually work and run games at 720p internally that look decent on your 4k tv. you can return games if you buy from steam directly. you can use any cheap controller you want or just use KBM. 5 years ago, PS5 was a great deal. now? nah. not with those extortionary practices.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
At least 50% is an understatement. It's generally 100% more powerful.
Corporal.Hicks
Member
It's not just the food that looks round in these screenshotsExactly, UE5 is one gen ahead in this department thanks to nanite. Random Korean UE5 game:
I'm hungry looking at this...
They used A LOT of polygons in this game:
Everything is round.
But of course this has a cost, UE5 games require 4070ti-4080 class GPUs to achieve 60fps with all bells and whistles (but maybe on high, no epic) with at least 1080p - 4k reconstruction. Regular PS5 is more than 2x less powerful than that.
. The "watermelons" caught my eye, too.Unreal Engine 5 is very demanding when developers want to use all of it's features (nanite, VSM, lumen), but I think the standard PS5 is still capable of running UE5 games at a reasonable image quality, but at 30 fps (maybe 40fps). The challenge arises when developers aspire to achieve 60 fps, because resolution needs to take a big hit. Even the best looking game will look like crap with blurry image, so personally I would always choose a game with worse graphics and a sharp image over a game with better graphics but blurry image. I can understand why so many PS5 owners prise games like Death Stranding 2, or TLOU1 and hare UE5 games, these people simply want sharp image on their TVs.
Unreal Engine 5 will shine on the PS6. That console supposed to have comparable GPU to my 4080, so I know the difference in image quality compared to PS5 will be massive.
4K DLAA 3.7 (more demanding than native TAA), custom high settings (high settings preset but with draw distance and textures to epic) - 61fps
4K DLSS 3.7 Quality - 93fps (with FGx2 would be around 150fps)
The same UE5 game on the PS5 runs at 1440p reconstructed with TSR (1080p internaly) with 43-60fps and I think the PS5 version use even lower settings than high on PC because Digital Foundry shown downgrades in lumen quality in performance mode on the PS5.
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Corporal.Hicks
Member
You don't even need to manually copy the latest DLSS DLLs to the game directory. You can set the Nvidia drivers to use the latest DLSS globally and that's it.DLSS had several problems in its first year.
It still exists in some games (a few, of course, but it does).
The Silent Hill remake was horrible with DLSS.
People even complained here at Neogaf, as well as in threads on other sites.
As for SH2 remake that's how the game looked on my PC day one. DLSS performance blured the hair compared to native 4K, but image quality was still really good overall and I think many PS5 owners would like to play UE5 games with such quality. DLSS4 improved image quality in SH2 even further though
. Native 4K
4K DLSS Quality
4K DLSS Performance
In these two screensnshots I also used DLSS performance.
Square often use low poly and low res textures for game size purposes only. Rebirth is a huge game in terms of varied assets vs Mafia.
Bojji
Gold Member
Game is 145GB on PS5 and has many PS3 quality geometry and assets... No to mention awful lighting and textures.
Mafia is almost 1/3 of that.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Insomniac said that 1/3rd of the disc/game size is now lighting texture data. This only happens because the lighting isnt realtime and every single texture needs to have multiple different versions under every lighting condition. this was not an issue for linear games but open world games now with different times of day where you can visit the same area under different lighting conditions will now require duplicate assets. Increasing game size.
Games with realtime lighting do not need to duplicate much. Games with nanite dont need 6-10 different models for each LOD either. Thats why UE5 games are so small in comparison while looking better.
Corporal.Hicks
Member
I haven't played FF Rebirth, so I can't comment on the size of its map or game size on the drive itself, but Mafia The Old Country isn't exactly a small game (like Hellblade 2 for example). Even in a fast car, it takes several minutes to drive around the entire map.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
it's funny you mention that because a days gone developer recently updated his linkedin showing how he was working on integrating their tech with Decima as early as 2020.
To me this is the best case scenario. All sony devs work on one engine each bringing their own tech to the engine. But for some reason that didnt happen and DS2 has the same issues as the previous games released in Decima.
Honestly, im shocked that three big developers are all working on Decima and none of them bothered to add a realtime GI solution. Fucking Bethesda did it. Kingdom Come 2 developers did it. Machine Games and ID Software straight up were able to put in RTGI. But Bend, GG and Kojima all working on one engine didnt even bother with realtime GI? Something devs wanted to implement in 2015? Let alone nanite or VSMs.
Just a bunch of lazy developers and they get praised in this thread as the holy grail. Big LOL. Shows just how clueless gamers are nowadays.
Bojji
Gold Member
Yep, but in the case of Rebirth I don't what takes all this data because lighting is shit, lol.
AC Unity was amazing with this, even developer was defending big (at the time) game size: they baked lighting for entire Paris in 4 different fixed times of day. Game still looks great in lighting department.
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Cramoss
Member
Umm, that's my point. They have a lot of different assets in their game (rebirth). Imagine if those assets were nanite and not compressed to low poly and low res. Mafia doesn't have as many varied assets or textures and is a smaller game in terms of asset variety and game world size.
Map size isn't so much of an issue as variety of assets in that world. You can have 50 miles of the same rocks and trees. Rebirth is a huge game with a huge variety of assets.
Bojji
Gold Member
I don't see that... Rebirth is full of duplicated assets and open world is very limited, there are few different "biomes" in the game. Even GTA5 from PS3 is bigger, has more freedom and variety of objects on screen.
It's just SE being incompetent. This game looks like that:
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Rebirth is probably one of the best examples of art over tech.
It's full of very low quality assets, to me it felt like the game may have been designed as a cross-gen PS4 game for a long while before SE shifted it to just being PS5 only.
It also has worse effect quality for things like shadows, texture filtering etc compared to the Intergrade re-release of FFVII-R on PS5.
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Bojji
Gold Member
metareferential
Member
You'll end up summoning Rofif.