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DOTA 2 |OT8| DOTA Asian Championship (1/27-2/9)

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M

Madouu

Member
BlastProcessing said:
Yeah, and the original post I was responding to was about how 30 is considered old. Different sports have different skill requirements but 30 is a pretty hard line for skill. Also, yes you can point to stars like Messi and Ronaldo, but they are exceptional. They are more visible because of their skill but they are outliers.
Click to expand...

That is absolutely not true, they are not the outliers, it is actually the norm in football.
 
A

Aikidoka

Member
Gentle Rodriguez said:
It's not some bullshit they're making up on the spot, it's been proven that reaction time peaks and starts deteriorating in your early 20s.
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I do not think it has been proven. I only found this one study that examines StarCraft 2 players and shows that "Looking-doing Latency" peaks at age 24. This may potentially be related to reaction times but that hasn't been shown yet. Secondly, looking at the distribution of ages across the leagues, they are highly concentrated at the age of 24-25, with very very few players of age 30+ being included especially for higher skill levels (see figure). To me, this seems like potentially a big flaw in trying to find trends as the older samples are almost just outliers.
image
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The article also states that these results could potentially be explained away by "cohort effects" and different playstyles of experts ( see the discussion section of the paper) though they think it's unlikely.
Ultimately, we need other research groups to use other methods (e.g., longitudinal studies), better samples, and maybe more refined ways of measuring the player's focus. Also, some more research needs to be done to correlate these looking-doing cycles to reaction times.

EDIT: Also, about the articles showing that football players lose offensive potential at the age of 30, I think that in order to say it's solely due to natural aging, you would have to take into account the wear-and-tear playing football does and how that affects play too. In eSports, this physical punishment doesn't seem to exist (i wouldn't think anyways)
 
B

BlastProcessing

Member
OddMorsel said:
They are not outliers. It is common knowledge among football fans that 28-30 is where many players hit their peaks. Robben, Ribery, Van Persie, Drogba, Suarez, Falcao, Pirlo... There are tons of examples of players at the very top of the game that are in their late 20s or early 30s (or in insane cases like Totti and Giggs, late 30s).

It's where youthful energy and experience meet at just the right balance.
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I don't know as much about kicky footy, but I know that people said the exact same thing about Baseball before they actually ran the numbers. The common thought for the longest time was that the peak was 33-35. (All of this is assuming no PEDs. The steroid era definitely led to players peaking older)

All of the data I can find suggests that the average player falls off similarly to other sports. If you can find other numbers, I would love to be proven wrong. We are getting off topic here so I will let you have the last word and let it be.
 
manfestival

manfestival

Member
Aikidoka said:
I do not think it has been proven. I only found this one study that examines StarCraft 2 players and shows that "Looking-doing Latency" peaks at age 24. This may potentially be related to reaction times but that hasn't been shown yet. Secondly, looking at the distribution of ages across the leagues, they are highly concentrated at the age of 24-25, with very very few players of age 30+ being included especially for higher skill levels (see figure). To me, this seems like potentially a big flaw in trying to find trends as the older samples are almost just outliers.


The article also states that these results could potentially be explained away by "cohort effects" and different playstyles of experts ( see the discussion section of the paper) though they think it's unlikely.
Ultimately, we need other research groups to use other methods (e.g., longitudinal studies), better samples, and maybe more refined ways of measuring the player's focus. Also, some more research needs to be done to correlate these looking-doing cycles to reaction times.

EDIT: Also, about the articles showing that football players lose offensive potential at the age of 30, I think that in order to say it's solely due to natural aging, you would have to take into account the wear-and-tear playing football does and how that affects play too. In eSports, this physical punishment doesn't seem to exist (i wouldn't think anyways)
Click to expand...
I really do not need to be looking at offensive charts like that
 
I

iamblades

Member
BlastProcessing said:
I don't know as much about kicky footy, but I know that people said the exact same thing about Baseball before they actually ran the numbers. The common thought for the longest time was that the peak was 33-35. (All of this is assuming no PEDs. The steroid era definitely led to players peaking older)

All of the data I can find suggests that the average player falls off similarly to other sports. If you can find other numbers, I would love to be proven wrong. We are getting off topic here so I will let you have the last word and let it be.
Click to expand...

IMO people judge the rate of falloff too much based on the top tier hall of fame players who have longer careers, which is what leads to the 'but so and so is still kicking ass at 30' argument.


Pretty much in every measurable way, peak physical performance is 28 at the latest, but probably more like 24-25.

Sports like Tennis where everything is about reaction times and being able to physically get to the ball you see this dropoff in a more extreme way than a sport like basketball where there are only so many 7 foot tall people with any coordination at all being born each year.

Another factor which obfuscates the reality of when players start declining physically is reputation treatment by refs and coaches and teammates. If a star player has established himself, coaches will draw up more plays for him, teammates will defer to him, refs will give him the benefit of the doubt. All of these things will negate the physical decline of a player to some degree.

This is also without mentioning PEDs.
 
Q

Quesa

Member
manfestival said:
OWlUs64.jpg

alright gaf, please fix me. I feel like im a terrible player and I dont know what to do to improve
Click to expand...

Pick a hero. Find the top players on dotabuff and watch their replays. It doesn't matter who you pick. Spamming a hero and using things you've known makes it easier to make other decisions, and you'll slowly get better at that hero, and develop skills that apply to all heroes. Heck, you could watch pros as well, but I found it hard to learn from them because pro gameplay can be so different from pubs.
 
Q

Quesa

Member
Lame

Won't be able to watch it cuz of work

Wonder if I should even read the thread and watch it tomorrow or say fuck it and read the craziness on here tomorrow
 
shira

shira

Member
Quesa said:
Lame

Won't be able to watch it cuz of work

Wonder if I should even read the thread and watch it tomorrow or say fuck it and read the craziness on here tomorrow
Click to expand...

What craziness? black^ is just going to take his belt off and whip some salty bitches back to the west
 
C

call_kotaku

Member
Don't professional videogame players usually retire before 30 because of real life obligations making it difficult to grind practice, or because of how difficult it is to make it financially tenable to keep competing? I can't recall a single person citing physical or mental decline as the sole reason, and the most common ones seem to be people running out of motivation or time as they get older.
 
D

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
call_kotaku said:
Don't professional videogame players usually retire before 30 because of real life obligations making it difficult to grind practice, or because of how difficult it is to make it financially tenable to keep competing? I can't recall a single person citing physical or mental decline as the sole reason, and the most common ones seem to be people running out of motivation or time as they get older.
Click to expand...

Motivation is likely the big one. I think if Dota is still a thing in 10 years, a lot of the better players will change to casters and coaches.
 
P

Purple Cheeto

Member
iamblades said:
IMO people judge the rate of falloff too much based on the top tier hall of fame players who have longer careers, which is what leads to the 'but so and so is still kicking ass at 30' argument.


Pretty much in every measurable way, peak physical performance is 28 at the latest, but probably more like 24-25.

Sports like Tennis where everything is about reaction times and being able to physically get to the ball you see this dropoff in a more extreme way than a sport like basketball where there are only so many 7 foot tall people with any coordination at all being born each year.

Another factor which obfuscates the reality of when players start declining physically is reputation treatment by refs and coaches and teammates. If a star player has established himself, coaches will draw up more plays for him, teammates will defer to him, refs will give him the benefit of the doubt. All of these things will negate the physical decline of a player to some degree.

This is also without mentioning PEDs.
Click to expand...

I don't know about other sports, but for baseball we actually have enough statistical data to create standard aging curves and predict roughly how much year to year drop a player will likely have (under normal scenarios). Dudes can always fall off a cliff, and some guys are just freaks of nature, but for most players its possible.

These days in baseball you generally don't want to get involved long term with players over the age of 30. While 30-32 can still be productive years, this is the point where normal players start to go downward.

HOWEVER. We also have in baseball certain skills that are known as "old player" skills. Things that players tend to get better at with age/experience (plate discipline for example)

How any of this applies to eSports I dunno.
 
C

call_kotaku

Member
iamblades said:
IMO people judge the rate of falloff too much based on the top tier hall of fame players who have longer careers, which is what leads to the 'but so and so is still kicking ass at 30' argument.


Pretty much in every measurable way, peak physical performance is 28 at the latest, but probably more like 24-25.

Sports like Tennis where everything is about reaction times and being able to physically get to the ball you see this dropoff in a more extreme way than a sport like basketball where there are only so many 7 foot tall people with any coordination at all being born each year.

Another factor which obfuscates the reality of when players start declining physically is reputation treatment by refs and coaches and teammates. If a star player has established himself, coaches will draw up more plays for him, teammates will defer to him, refs will give him the benefit of the doubt. All of these things will negate the physical decline of a player to some degree.

This is also without mentioning PEDs.
Click to expand...

I don't think Tennis is necessarily a sport that people lose aptitude for as they get older, because a ton of people were very successful deep into their 30s, but older people have a hard time keeping up with the sort of schedule necessary to be a professional tennis player. When I followed the sport years ago I think one of the big things being pushed by players was some sort of off-season, instead of having 4 grand slams and basically a tournament every month without any opportunity to recover, but I don't know if anything came of that. It might be different in a couple of years because of how fast the players in general are improving; it's pretty staggering how much the top level of players have improved as a whole over the last 30-ish years, even outside of the improvements in technology, it's crazy how much all the top players leveled up after that extended domination by Federer.

Also, one huge advantage younger athletes have over older ones is how fast they can recover and therefore how hard they can train, plus they have a better hormonal balance to take advantage of that training (why testosterone therapy is so popular for older fighters in MMA, afaik). But that's not a factor at all in esports, outside of older people having a harder time living with half a dozen dudes and sitting at the computer for 16 hours a day.
 
E

Eleuin

Member
Match so boring they had to talk about dota history

What I remember most from Dota 1 is how broken Terrorblade used to be (to me)

Also EG have no chance :(
 
H

Hylian7

Member
A3l1E7X.jpg


And he wondered why nobody gave him Tangos...

He actually turned out to be a good player, but you gotta admit that build is greedy as all hell.
 
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