2017 then.
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DOTA 2 |OT8| DOTA Asian Championship (1/27-2/9)
- Thread starter Teknopathetic
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2017 then.
Because they aren't really working on them. Most of the dev team moved on to other projects, and the remainder know they only have so many more "new hero releases", so they just space them out for when they feel they need them enough to provide "new content" to keep players interested.
This, and the fact that it takes time. Don't tell me "Well Riot pumps them out every month or whatever"
I'm sure the office culture at Riot is super stressful too. They want to get these things right, and like a wise man once said, "These things, they take time."
Dreams-Visions
Member
You weren't talking that shit when they were giving us 1-2 new heroes every month tho. Keep it real, bro. They gutted the Dota 2 team and we're the ones paying for it by way of slow advancements and a hero release schedule that would make molasses blush. You don't need to apologize or make excuses for them.
Yea, it's when you started. A few years ago, changes and improvements were frequent and we were getting 1-2 new heroes ported every month like clockwork. When the game went out of beta (presumably around the time you started playing), most of the Dota 2 dev team moved onto other projects. Suddenly the steady stream of improvements, bug fixes, added features and heroes slowed to what can now be best described as "a snail's pace". From 1-2 new heroes/month down to 1-2 new heroes per season. With plenty of unaddressed bugs and very limited communication from Valve about the future of Dota 2 (immediate or distant), people get anxious and impatient. We want to see the game improve in the many ways obvious improvements can be gained. When weeks turn into months turn into years, we don't know what we can look forward to or expect.
Compare with this:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news
That's 3 blog posts from Riot HQ just today. That's 13 blog posts from Riot HQ in the last 7 days.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/ne...behavior/player-behavior-design-values-reward
here they are talking about what they're looking to do to further improve player behavior.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=633CHC6TTYY&feature=youtu.be
here they are talking about a new character that got a visual update.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-52-notes
here they are, not only pointing out balance changes...but actually discussing the thinking behind where they want to see a hero or item go in their meta game.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/champion-reveal/kalista-spear-vengeance-revealed
and here they are debuting a new character.
Again, compare to Valve's relative radio silence. If we get 1 blog update a month, we're doing pretty good. And it's not to say that making 2 posts a day is necessary. Far from it. What it's about is the feeling that you're being talked to, being heard, and that changes to things you want/need to see changed are in the pike. It's about communication and progress...and the former extends people's patience with regard to the later.
From the outside, it feels like there is no reason that a game like Dota2 -- which is bringing in stupid money to tournaments and valve via trading and store purchses -- can't get a more steady stream of content (not hats) or some increased transparency on the issue of server issues, DDoSing and what Valve is doing to protect their product. They're worse than Blizzard at communicating and that's saying something.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
Is there a point where people think Valve should really be doing more? For those that don't think that already.
I just don't understand why they haven't hired more to deal with the added work.
I just don't understand why they haven't hired more to deal with the added work.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
What is stopping them hiring people to help?
ashecitism
Member
They don't agressively expand (and hire grunt) because that would mess wirh their precious structure. Too bad the customers don't care about that shit, but Valve knows with being "good enough" they're still doing great.
Valve could solve that problem, but they choose not to.
Purple Cheeto
Member
Riot also actually gives a shit about their community and fan base because they know that as soon as they start losing it they are in trouble.
Valve could just be a digital sales platform for the rest of time and never make games again and still be profitable. I actually wonder based on their job postings and what not how many actual game developers Valve even employees anymore. I bet less than 1/3 of Valve's actual employees are game developers.
From an ex Valve employee:
People don't want their royalties getting compromised.
Valve could just be a digital sales platform for the rest of time and never make games again and still be profitable. I actually wonder based on their job postings and what not how many actual game developers Valve even employees anymore. I bet less than 1/3 of Valve's actual employees are game developers.
From an ex Valve employee:
People don't want their royalties getting compromised.
This.
As much as it sucks, they can't have everyone working on Dota. These things take time. And back when we were getting 1-2 heroes a month during beta, people STILL bitched about it. It was common. Remember when Nyx got delayed for like 3 weeks, then they eventually came out with a 3-hero update that contained Nyx, KotL, and Visage? Then people bitched that Meepo was left out for after TI2.
People complain about anything. Valve develops at the pace their capable of, and what they feel like. I think it's been proven time and time again why Valve also doesn't communicate much, because they know things happen and it just sets people up for disappointment. The only real failure of this was the lack of communication over Diretide in 2013. Sometimes this kind of communication is totally necessary, but I understand their approach of "Don't say anything, don't set anyone up for disappointment."
Valve is different. They don't do the conventional methods for almost anything, lets be honest here.
Yet here they are, running the largest PC gaming digital distribution store in the world, one of the largest multiplayer FPS games in the market, and of course one of the biggest competitive games in the market.
It's safe to say they are doing something right.
Dreams-Visions
Member
No doubt the number of employees working on things matters. But that doesn't serve as an excuse for their general lack of communication on the present and future of the game and its issues.
Further, the gutting of the Dota 2 team was Valve's decision. Nobody forced Valve to remove the talent from the Dota 2 team before it was even finished porting heroes from Dota 1. Thus, they can miss me with the "numbers" excuse. You (they, not you, Ikuu) don't get to play the "we need more help" card when you had enough help but moved them to other shit on purpose.
And let's be real: they don't communicate well because they don't give enough of a fuck to. It is what it is. The saddest part is if they would simply occasionally say, "we're working on xyz", people would be super cool about it. As we learned with the DireTide silliness from a couple of years ago, the worst thing you can do is let time go by with people left to their own devices. Let people know what time it is and they'll wait without rioting. You would have thought they learned that lesson then. Nope. I suppose if you give some general timelines people may start to have expectations. Can't have that, I guess. Valve Time must remain Valve Time.
Again, miss me with that hyperbolic shit. You don't have to have everyone working on something or nobody working on something. There is a middle ground between the whole office being dedicated to Dota 2 and having a skeleton crew of 5 doing all the work.
These things take time because Valve doesn't give enough of a fuck to put 4 or 5 more people on the dev team. And they don't give enough of a fuck about communicating with the community because they just don't.
The end.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
I'm not necessarily saying they should aggressively expand, but they clearly need the help.
I just don't understand what is stopping them expanding to make the work more manageable.
Edit: I'll ask another thing, if valve fails to deliver on the stuff they promised for the TI compendium before the next TI, who will actually kick up a fuss?
I just don't understand what is stopping them expanding to make the work more manageable.
Edit: I'll ask another thing, if valve fails to deliver on the stuff they promised for the TI compendium before the next TI, who will actually kick up a fuss?
call_kotaku
Member
I have a hard time imagining the benefits from the expenditures required for those kinds of things is something that Valve would be able to justify. The last couple of heroes they ported get very little play and generally it seems like the community can't wait for the next hero only to not ever play them when they release. It seems like whatever manpower they have is better used trying to find the next thing that makes them money, and honestly I wouldn't be surprised if hero creation gets delegated to the community at some point.
Just about all their projects are just experiments on new revenue/economic models and systems that can earn them money, and generally it seems like a much more efficient system for them. Valve does seem to have an overexaggerated dislike for routine labor and delegate as much of that sort of work to other studios or the community, but I can't say it hasn't been immensely successful for them, atleast financially. Riot and most other F2P game developers treat their games as content platforms, but it seems like Valve treats theirs like economic experiment platforms. Similarly, Riot and Blizzard treat their tournament circuits like sports leagues, but Valve treats their DOTA2 tournaments like crowdfunding experiments.
Just about all their projects are just experiments on new revenue/economic models and systems that can earn them money, and generally it seems like a much more efficient system for them. Valve does seem to have an overexaggerated dislike for routine labor and delegate as much of that sort of work to other studios or the community, but I can't say it hasn't been immensely successful for them, atleast financially. Riot and most other F2P game developers treat their games as content platforms, but it seems like Valve treats theirs like economic experiment platforms. Similarly, Riot and Blizzard treat their tournament circuits like sports leagues, but Valve treats their DOTA2 tournaments like crowdfunding experiments.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Oh the community has a long, storied, embarrassing history surrounding Valve failing to deliver and not being transparent about it in a timely fashion. We won't have a repeat of DireTide 2013. I just wish they would do better than the minimum amount of communication.
As for expanding the team, I imagine they could if they wanted to. Just adding 4 or 5 developers would what? Almost double the team, iirc? idk. I just wish they'd do a little something. Really, I wish they had kept a few more bodies on until they finished porting all the heroes from Dota1. Considering the speed of expansion up to the game coming out of Beta, the slow down has given many of us whiplash.
NormalFish
Banned
Honestly don't feel much of a need for Dota 2 to get more updates (per unit time). Game plays fine. New heroes are coming at a rate that I'm fine with. Would like custom games and more "events", though.
Purple Cheeto
Member
Valve is also an internally directionless company run primarily by engineers with no official internal hierarchy.
Riot is a pretty organized (structure wise) corporation run by businessmen.
Riot is a pretty organized (structure wise) corporation run by businessmen.
Actually they do it for sanity's sake and not wanting to make things worse, which, lets be honest, stepping in on many issues would cause things to become worse than they already are for the most part.
Remember the Portal 2 potato weekend?
When people started trolling and dropping "mysterious messages" for the ARG that were fake, Valve considered stepping in, but they didn't simply because that would only fuel the chaos further. I mean who would believe Gabe Newell stepping into the IRC of the potato ARG saying "That guy is fake, I'm actually Gabe."?
They talked about most of this during a Steam Dev Day, you can watch it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fwv1G3WFSfI
Actual part about communication starts around here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fwv1G3WFSfI#t=2045
Actual part about communication starts around here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fwv1G3WFSfI#t=2045
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
I just find it strange that noone seems interested in holding Valve's feet to the fire when it comes to these sorts of things ie the compendium stuff.
Any other company would be challenged for not delivering on paid content, yet Valve time is still acceptable.
Poor practice should just be criticised for being poor practice.
Any other company would be challenged for not delivering on paid content, yet Valve time is still acceptable.
Poor practice should just be criticised for being poor practice.
You don't know what you are talking about Valve employees choose (or at least have a say)what they work on - Valve supports 3 of the most popular F2P (CS:GO isn't F2P yet ... but it will be) games in the west with regular content updates. Dota gets updated as much as the other 2, if not more.
It takes a phenomenal amount of work, balancing and testing to add a hero to the game, that's why neither Valve or Riot push out heroes every month.
I get it - you are mad that the communication is poor, but this Valve's decision. Just like G.R.R. Martin doesn't talk about Winds of War because people over analyse every word and phrase, and then get mad if Techies doesn't get released by "the end of summer" or New Bloom has the Year Beast when they said there would be no new game modes.
Relax, enjoy the game - the update will be out soon and we'll have a new hero, more arcanas and lots of goat related hats.
You're an ass.
Noooooooooooooot the best time for that.
What paid content? You paid for the compendium, you got the compendium, the stretch goals were bonuses, and they are still being worked on, they have been steadily delivering them.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
Soz, outsourcing skin creation and map balance to the community via reddit isn't hard work.
also unbalancing certain guns without any real testing isnt hard work.
CSGO isnt the example to use here pls
also unbalancing certain guns without any real testing isnt hard work.
CSGO isnt the example to use here pls
shira
Member
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
I personally bought the compendium because of the stuff that was promised.
Can't dismiss it as a bonus, I wanted what they said they'd give for my money.
And they will deliver it. IDK why you seem to believe they won't. However you didn't contribute all $11 million dollars, at the end of the day you still just bought the compendium, and however many compendium points you bought.
They'll deliver, relax.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
I was just asking how many months can pass before it's reasonable for people to kick up a fuss?
Like I said, any other company would have their feet held to the fire about this.
You got what you paid for - a tournament with the best pro teams fighting over a $10 million dollar prize pool.
When was the last time someone kicked up a fuss over something of this nature where they paid for one thing and expecting something else that was promised in advance?
Literally the only thing I can think of off the top of my head is the BioShock Infinite Season pass, and it took a while for the DLC to be revealed.
First he doesn't make IHL2 and now this. Ban this man.
You think Dota has a team of 5 developers?
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
not the compendium goals when I bought in then?
call_kotaku
Member
I think the things that Valve is working on and the things that will make them the most money are probably:
I imagine most of their workforce is dedicated to working on the things at the top of the list, and I can't really fault their order of priorities.
- Expanding and adding new features to Steam, and creating new ways of delivering that platform (steamboxes, VR, linux, glNext)
- Moving their existing games to a more powerful and capable engine
- Creating tools and monetizing custom games and mods in Source 2
- Creating new monetization systems for their existing games
- Creating new tools for modifying their existing games
- Making new games
- Improving customer support infrastructure
- New content for DOTA2
I imagine most of their workforce is dedicated to working on the things at the top of the list, and I can't really fault their order of priorities.
shira
Member
The team is like 6 guys and ifrog
Dreams-Visions
Member
Also, I should say I love me some Dotes as much as the next (wo)man. Almost 4,000 matches and still going strong.
But having been in the Beta since 2011 (i think?) and having significant experience with other modern MOBAS affords me a perspective that some others may not have. It makes it more apparent to me where every MOBA game I play needs improvements and expanded features. I could have this same conversation in the Leeg thread talking about all the shit Dota can do that Leeg can't and needs to be able to, spectator features and lack of voice chat being chief among them. And like some of you, there would (and have been) individuals who excuse away the lack of those features or find ways to suggest they're bad.
This isn't about excuse-making. It's about adopting an appropriate amount of perspective and objectivity that allows you to look critically at what is, what could be, and what is needed to get there. It allows you to say, "hey, this is a great fucking idea...every MOBA I play should have this feature" and not somehow feel some type of way about it. My rants like this are penned with goal of seeing Dota2 as good as it can be. For Dota2, that means a community that is being engaged by its developer with communication more than on a blue moon. It means hiring a little more help. It means addressing some of the many areas in which Dota2 is deficient (UI, HUDs, Server stability, region/language issues, new/updated hero releases). Hiding from or otherwise avoiding these conversations doesn't help anyone.
Everyone who plays Dota2 and plans to do so for a long time to come should want the game to get better, and there are ideas and initiatives that other developers are doing that Valve can learn from. We should be all about talking about them and finding exciting ways that they could be added to Dota2; not hand-waving and excuse-making for the developers who put themselves in this position by stripping their team down to a skeleton crew. Not with the kind of money Dota 2 is bringing in. Damn that.
But having been in the Beta since 2011 (i think?) and having significant experience with other modern MOBAS affords me a perspective that some others may not have. It makes it more apparent to me where every MOBA game I play needs improvements and expanded features. I could have this same conversation in the Leeg thread talking about all the shit Dota can do that Leeg can't and needs to be able to, spectator features and lack of voice chat being chief among them. And like some of you, there would (and have been) individuals who excuse away the lack of those features or find ways to suggest they're bad.
This isn't about excuse-making. It's about adopting an appropriate amount of perspective and objectivity that allows you to look critically at what is, what could be, and what is needed to get there. It allows you to say, "hey, this is a great fucking idea...every MOBA I play should have this feature" and not somehow feel some type of way about it. My rants like this are penned with goal of seeing Dota2 as good as it can be. For Dota2, that means a community that is being engaged by its developer with communication more than on a blue moon. It means hiring a little more help. It means addressing some of the many areas in which Dota2 is deficient (UI, HUDs, Server stability, region/language issues, new/updated hero releases). Hiding from or otherwise avoiding these conversations doesn't help anyone.
Everyone who plays Dota2 and plans to do so for a long time to come should want the game to get better, and there are ideas and initiatives that other developers are doing that Valve can learn from. We should be all about talking about them and finding exciting ways that they could be added to Dota2; not hand-waving and excuse-making for the developers who put themselves in this position by stripping their team down to a skeleton crew. Not with the kind of money Dota 2 is bringing in. Damn that.
You didn't know? That's why we keep talking about this from the context of the "gutted" dev team. The team is < 10 developers, IIRC. Which is a testament to the skill of that handful of guys and gals, but also puts into perspective what adding 4 or 5 more would do for a lot of the issues being discussed.
You paid for them to be developed, they are being developed - Valve even reached out to the community to get more feedback on the Void remodel.
You are acting like an entitled brat and you know it.
Shorty11857
Member
And if they hired 5 more people for Dota they could all decide not to work on it, unless Valve dramatically change their culture I don't think hiring more people would fix anything
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
All I've actually asked is how long do we have to wait before it's unacceptable?
You've done everything but answer the question.
edit: entitled to the things I've paid for.
Maybe contract law is different in the States.
Probably because there is no answer.
Shorty11857
Member
What did you pay for that you didn't get?
You got to vote for a remodel and an alternative voice, that's what the goal was
Dreams-Visions
Member
Obviously the point is within the context of adding 5 people to the Dota 2 dev team.
Let's not be dense tonight. There is no other context. We know people can largely go work on what they want. So within that context, we're talking about adding 5 people who want to work on Dota 2. I'm not even sure why you're making me spell out the obvious.
FlutterPuffs
Member
How do we know they've gutted the Dota 2 team?
Any sources for it?
Any sources for it?
Dreams-Visions
Member
I'm sure you can look them up. It's been discussed here several times in the past in the Community side and Gaming side. Dev team largely moved onto other projects around the time the game came out of Beta.
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