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Heroes of the Storm |OT2| Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
- Thread starter Nirolak
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Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Going first is the only chance to play Li Ming and then you also need to be on the team picking first and have her not being banned by opponents. ):
I've honestly only played about 20-25 Li-Ming games. That other guy called dibs and played her to 10 and by the time he was done I wasn't into it. Should have, though, cause she still wins games in QM like crazy.
I've got dibs on Tracer, though. I can't wait to feed.
Also, this esports talk on Into the Nexus episode 100 is hilarious. They were talking about how to increase esports acceptance in America and it devolved into introducing esports functions to real sports like the Denver Broncos ban Tom Brady in tonight's matchup.
I've got dibs on Tracer, though. I can't wait to feed.
Also, this esports talk on Into the Nexus episode 100 is hilarious. They were talking about how to increase esports acceptance in America and it devolved into introducing esports functions to real sports like the Denver Broncos ban Tom Brady in tonight's matchup.
scoobs
Member
I could get behind this. Fuck Tom Brady.
Dunno, all I know is it's for solo queue. I didn't watch the video. I would suspect it has to be for some of the same reasons brian and co like him in ARAM. He still seems well enough for plebs in the games I've played (provided he's not against Li-Ming, which he wouldn't be in HL cause of bans). I dunno about being better than Jaina, though, but he plays more HL than I do.
If anyone is interested, the "best player in the world" MVP Rich is streaming on Azubu: http://www.azubu.tv/Rich.
He's playing Zeratul right now. Just watching one game and some of the plays these dudes are making, just the randoms, seems a bit better. sCsC was in there too.
If anyone is interested, the "best player in the world" MVP Rich is streaming on Azubu: http://www.azubu.tv/Rich.
He's playing Zeratul right now. Just watching one game and some of the plays these dudes are making, just the randoms, seems a bit better. sCsC was in there too.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Told ya'll thrall is awesome. Don't tell others.
This has been known since the scaling changes hit?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
This has been known since the scaling changes hit?
True but while y'all where complaining about Li Ming, Thrall is just slightly below her imo.
Complaints about li ming are more about base things, in practice both li ming and thrall have counterplay
@aram i mean the mode is 85% rng. W/ regard to the tournament, i made it prtty clear to my team that i wanted to keep it loose (ptsd from reg aram room) and everyone was immediately down. We were in voice comms and did relaxed stuff like call out globe and cd timers and think aloud about things we could or couldnt do, but we didnt go ham w/ target calling or anything. The tools to make it competitive were there but the idea that someone would take aram seriously is pretty foreign to me.
I dont think kael is better than jaina but i think both are a little underrated
@aram i mean the mode is 85% rng. W/ regard to the tournament, i made it prtty clear to my team that i wanted to keep it loose (ptsd from reg aram room) and everyone was immediately down. We were in voice comms and did relaxed stuff like call out globe and cd timers and think aloud about things we could or couldnt do, but we didnt go ham w/ target calling or anything. The tools to make it competitive were there but the idea that someone would take aram seriously is pretty foreign to me.
I dont think kael is better than jaina but i think both are a little underrated
Thrall's easy to blow up.
Yeah, definitely has not been my experience or our shared experience.
I think he's arguably OP, but not slightly below her. Just the melee factor in general prevents that IMO. The ease with which she blows up people, resets, and then blows up more people is just unmatched in this MOBA. She very much feels like she was made in the image of League or Dota.
jaundicejuice
Member
Thrall has to be in your face to do damage, Li-Ming throws shade from downtown.
Thrall being strong is fine because there's actual risk/reward in his design. All you have to do is interrupt Thralls hammer combo and he loses his sustain.
The bad thing about the macintier discussion on reddit is that ppl are still too obsessed w/ winrates and it just shuts down any thinking on their part
Thrall and li ming are both op but i mean that's perfectly fine. My main issue w/ li ming, like barring core changes which are likely not coming, is that even if you react to ur teammate getting slayed by retreating a bit she can still tag you with laser, im cool with her numbers and what not
Thrall and li ming are both op but i mean that's perfectly fine. My main issue w/ li ming, like barring core changes which are likely not coming, is that even if you react to ur teammate getting slayed by retreating a bit she can still tag you with laser, im cool with her numbers and what not
A big thing that affects perception about li ming and her resets is that ppl are unwilling to dodge her shit after a ding and her shit is heavily dodgable if you arent getting cced. Another thing is that ppl arent reluctant enough to provide her oppurtunities to be effective, sticking around her while half-health, etc.
Most of my main issues w/ her have been resolved nicely, her building damage, her infinite mana (could use a further nerf on her base valuea tho, but that one talent is gone now), i just think there should be counterplay to a reset laser
Most of my main issues w/ her have been resolved nicely, her building damage, her infinite mana (could use a further nerf on her base valuea tho, but that one talent is gone now), i just think there should be counterplay to a reset laser
That's bull shit though. Her shit is heavily dodgeable, but it doesn't matter when it's on a 5 second cooldown and reaches you from the fog.
Flame strike is 7 seconds, falstads hammer is like 12 or something.
And just don't stick around when your close to half hp? Sounds like nova, who also has longer cool downs and is punished heavily for missing or wasting abilities.
Yes that's how you play against her, and it's what you gotta do to win the game, but that doesn't mean it's not total bullshit.
It's not perception. Why would you ever pick any other ranged assassin when li Ming is available?
Edit: my bad. Magic missiles is three second cooldown. 3 Seconds! Seriously fuck that hero.
imagine if nova could snipe you from the back line on a 3second cooldown. And then add like 400 damage to snipe.
Flame strike is 7 seconds, falstads hammer is like 12 or something.
And just don't stick around when your close to half hp? Sounds like nova, who also has longer cool downs and is punished heavily for missing or wasting abilities.
Yes that's how you play against her, and it's what you gotta do to win the game, but that doesn't mean it's not total bullshit.
It's not perception. Why would you ever pick any other ranged assassin when li Ming is available?
Edit: my bad. Magic missiles is three second cooldown. 3 Seconds! Seriously fuck that hero.
imagine if nova could snipe you from the back line on a 3second cooldown. And then add like 400 damage to snipe.
I agree with you, in ideal circumstances (ie: the lane, when she's visible, etc) the orb and missiles are relatively dodgeable. My question is when are you in a team fight that you aren't cc'd, though? Nearly every hero has a slow, bare minimum. The slow is all it takes to put a hero without a Barrel Roll/Vault/Blink from being a possibly hit target to an easy target. If you're the tank, melee, or a shorter range hero you can forget about it when it comes to dealing damage against her. She either has to be distracted and aiming in another direction, or you pretty much have to eat it as you chase her never-ending blinks or whoever else on her team you're after.
It's not really as simple as you make it out to be, which is why she is banned in every HL game nearly without exception.
Most heroes go to half health or thereabouts (or less) in one combo from her, nevermind the other 4 heroes trying to do damage in a team fight. So if you're engaged 5v5, you eat an orb, you just peace with half health? That's a good way to get flamed for abandoning your team, and completely opposite of how you play versus pretty much anyone else sans Greymane or old Chain Bomb KT.
The range on her stuff is ridiculous with her mobility. The ease with which she can talent into teleport and escape/sustain is pretty insane. She should never have the damage she does with the teleport to begin with. It should be less teleports = more damage or current teleports = less damage. Then, after you get all that out of the way, the resets are what really make it crazy. All it takes is one of your teammates getting caught and combo'd and she can just clean up your entire team with a reset, or get you all so low/push you back so far that it's a virtual wipe and free map control for her team until everyone hits the base.
I honestly don't think the complaints on Li-Ming are overblown at all. I can't even imagine what a fucking shitshow it is playing with her in lower MMR tiers where you know no one is dodging anything and it's feed city due to how much everyone likes to fight over every objective.
I really think you should hop into HL finally. You said you were never interested cause of lack of bans IIRC, well they are here. Hop in there and get some non-QM non-ARAM perspective. The game is much more enjoyable without her in it throwing bombs every few seconds.
Im speaking purely from my own experience ofc + theory so take it for what it's worth for yall
But i mean have you guys never felt like you werent doing much as li ming in a game or felt like you didnt automatically win because you had li ming and they didnt? Like that's what im arguing against, this perception that shit is in the bag when li ming is involved when it clearly isnt
But i mean have you guys never felt like you werent doing much as li ming in a game or felt like you didnt automatically win because you had li ming and they didnt? Like that's what im arguing against, this perception that shit is in the bag when li ming is involved when it clearly isnt
brickwalker0
Member
she is the most broken hero to be released, even since alpha. its even more telling that despite every patch hitting her hard with nerfs shes still at the top by a large margin.
No the issue is very much that you can't prevent yourself from getting dunked on. It's waaaaay to hard to not die to the hero. Because even if you dodge it, you gotta dodge it again immediately after. It's just like trying to catch the hero. You gotta catch her, and then catch her again, and then catch her again.
It's better said like: you need to prevent your selves from getting dunked on 12 times in a row while also nailing a half court three pointer.
It's better said like: you need to prevent your selves from getting dunked on 12 times in a row while also nailing a half court three pointer.
Like im trying to get at reasons why she's hated, not that she's not strong or that she's hated because she's strong. Even most of the language yall are using has to do w/ frustration w/ how you feel playing against her, same w/ tassadar who many of you feel is weak, both share the exact same winrate.
Oh, definitely, she's not autowin. But no hero ever really has been. Brightwing with the activatable D, Stitches with all the damage + hook, Thrall with Battle Momentum, Ignite KT, etc. They still lost 40% or more of their games for the most part. 40% odds aren't bad odds if you were gambling, but we aren't gambling.
Her winrate is only like 53% or something, so obviously some games your team sucks or they don't know how to let you poke. I definitely don't think she's an autowin, but I do think she heavily tilts the game in your favor in QM because of the randomness of comps (assuming no mirror). I liked it better when Rehgar could at least go in on her and enable players to easily take care of her previously, before his nerfs.
Yeah but that just sounds like some philosoraptor shit lol, do we really need to use a specific language/wording to make it okay to say she's OP? Why does it matter that players are frustrated that she's so strong in comparison to other ranged? She's just OP man. She's not fun to play against for the vast majority of the playerbase, whatever their individual reasons may be. That's pretty much all there is to it really.
brickwalker0
Member
honestly, i think "frustration" is still a better metric for balance than win-rate. only half joking.
Yeah that's all im really saying + trying to connect the vitriol and autoban w/ how ppl think of her. I didnt check her winrate in qm yet but in general i dunno if itd skew too different
I dunno i never said she wasnt op, but i thought the discussion came out of thinking about thrall vs. Li ming, where both are op but ppl are pretty cool w/ thrall
I don't hate the hero. I think she's cool. I wish she was balanced so she was fun to play as or against. I'm upset at the balance. I hate the fact the blizz doesn't seem to realize their own inconsistencies in balancing heroes. When they say the stuff like heroes are supposed to have core weaknesses and not have talents that make up for that, and blink is too strong on KT/Jaina, and nova is unfun, while also simultaneously saying they see no balance issues with li Ming and it's just a matter of her being new and player perception and stuff, it's fucking frustrating because they are so obviously wrong.
So you know you post that li mings issues are a perception thing and I'm triggered.
So you know you post that li mings issues are a perception thing and I'm triggered.
I don't think she's hugely over the line BTW - just slightly over it. And no, Thrall and Falstad can't do what she can do. Well, maybe Falstad if he has stacked his hammer up to stupid amounts, gets a thunderstorm off and has taken Hinterland Blast, and that all hits? But note that's using everything he has, including a 2 minute cooldown, over the space over 4+ seconds. After stacking the hammer to egregious levels.
I honestly think the Li-Ming complaints would be lessened if they had allowed KT and Jaina to be viable second options. Now they are like 5th/6th options or worse. As Ketch said, what sense does it make remove blink from them to preserve weaknesses in their kit while allowing a hero who does more damage to have the same ability at level 1 on like a 5 second cooldown or whatever? Seems silly.
Ultimately, though I'm the Blizzard cheerleader around here, I would prefer to see change in their approach to balancing.
Say like right now, Falstad needs a nerf to gust according to most players. I'd assume they will hit more than gust (I may be wrong). How about instead of nerfing Falstad this coming Tuesday/whenever the next patch is, they leave him alone and implement the next set of balance changes and see where those changes take the meta. Is Falstad still OP? Now nerf. Did the changes to other heroes bring him in line? Good, now he's just a good hero.
I feel like Brightwing (activatable D with reduced #'s across the board would've been fine), Valla (pre-BM removal and whatever else happened), Nazeebo (inexplicable nerf a few months back when he had just barely snuck into competitive again), Diablo changes to his charge and stuff last summer/spring, Tychus nerfs long ago, and several other of the changes they've made would have ultimately been just fine if they still functioned more or less the exact same right now (though probably not Brightwing with activatable D, at least not without nerfed #'s). I'm sure there are other examples, those are just the most prominent ones that pop in my head.
Ultimately, though I'm the Blizzard cheerleader around here, I would prefer to see change in their approach to balancing.
Say like right now, Falstad needs a nerf to gust according to most players. I'd assume they will hit more than gust (I may be wrong). How about instead of nerfing Falstad this coming Tuesday/whenever the next patch is, they leave him alone and implement the next set of balance changes and see where those changes take the meta. Is Falstad still OP? Now nerf. Did the changes to other heroes bring him in line? Good, now he's just a good hero.
I feel like Brightwing (activatable D with reduced #'s across the board would've been fine), Valla (pre-BM removal and whatever else happened), Nazeebo (inexplicable nerf a few months back when he had just barely snuck into competitive again), Diablo changes to his charge and stuff last summer/spring, Tychus nerfs long ago, and several other of the changes they've made would have ultimately been just fine if they still functioned more or less the exact same right now (though probably not Brightwing with activatable D, at least not without nerfed #'s). I'm sure there are other examples, those are just the most prominent ones that pop in my head.
Also, just wanted to add, whatever the opinions it's a good discussion about the game. Much better than stalking Twitter for BigE updates, no?
EDIT: I do agree Falstad and Thrall can rekt some fools, but Falstad has to put himself at serious risk typically and we all know Thrall has to be in the poop to stir the actual poop up. They are def good heroes, but I think the risk/reward is pretty good on them for the damage they have. Same with Greymane for the most part.
EDIT: I do agree Falstad and Thrall can rekt some fools, but Falstad has to put himself at serious risk typically and we all know Thrall has to be in the poop to stir the actual poop up. They are def good heroes, but I think the risk/reward is pretty good on them for the damage they have. Same with Greymane for the most part.
Not in the same way. Not sure how much of decent Li-Ming play you've seen, but I'm talking literal one rounded from a mile off. No auto attacks, no time to do anything, you just *die* if the orbits missiles hit and then she disintegrates. Falstad and Thrall require you to be up close and require auto attacks as well as their abilities. As someone who plays ranged carries pretty much exclusively, no-one has her potential to do that - nor have they ever. Even Greymane, a hero designed to execute folks, doesn't do what Li/Ming does.
And then she blinks forward and does it again.
jaundicejuice
Member
I like Dehaka because he's a fairly decent counter to a lot of the heroes that are strong right now. Brushwalk and Isolation are great for dealing with those problematic backline heroes that need to be shutdown, if only for a few seconds. Can't fight under a siege-mode Hammer, burst through Morales healing or fight under an ulting Li-Ming, Isolation shuts those heroes down. Drag is a fantastic counter-initiation tool against melee heroes like Thrall, Illidan and Greyman.
Depending on how a fight starts and who the focus is, you don't have to initiate on your target by using Brushwalk, you can also just bully your way through the damage to these targets using essence, get close enough to cast Isolation or CC them with Drag. With Dehaka's trait (provided you've been activlely farming essence) and burrow you can throttle a lot of the incoming damage. Sometimes Adaption is the better choice because it allows you to last longer in harassing that backline unit.
http://www.hotslogs.com/Sitewide/HeroDetails?Hero=Nazeebo
I was gonna say Toad build is stronk but then almost no one is using Toad Affinity in conjunction with Toads of Hugeness and Infested Toads.
Depending on how a fight starts and who the focus is, you don't have to initiate on your target by using Brushwalk, you can also just bully your way through the damage to these targets using essence, get close enough to cast Isolation or CC them with Drag. With Dehaka's trait (provided you've been activlely farming essence) and burrow you can throttle a lot of the incoming damage. Sometimes Adaption is the better choice because it allows you to last longer in harassing that backline unit.
http://www.hotslogs.com/Sitewide/HeroDetails?Hero=Nazeebo
I was gonna say Toad build is stronk but then almost no one is using Toad Affinity in conjunction with Toads of Hugeness and Infested Toads.
Yeah that's a good point too + ppl in this game still have a hard time pulling the trigger on poke and nazeebo has the added benefit of being able to defensively zone
Id be really into hotslogs stats once the arbitrariness of diamond/master becomes more clear too but more realistically the skill level for this game is just poor still.
Id be really into hotslogs stats once the arbitrariness of diamond/master becomes more clear too but more realistically the skill level for this game is just poor still.
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