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Heroes of the Storm |OT2| Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
- Thread starter Nirolak
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Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
On a real losing streak the last couple weeks, lost a bunch of ranks and my win / losses are something like 70-80 and that was when I checked a couple losses ago.
I feel your pain there. I managed to get down to rank 6 over the last week before finally recovering and starting to win some matches. Be it the players who play nova no matter what to the people who still think Li-Ming is the instant lock first pick no matter what, I seem to have been cursed.
My current strategy if we are first picking / first banning is to ban Li-Ming so that the person in spot 1 who was showing her cant play her, and then we make them play Kael instead. So far this has worked perfectly!
My current strategy if we are first picking / first banning is to ban Li-Ming so that the person in spot 1 who was showing her cant play her, and then we make them play Kael instead. So far this has worked perfectly!
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
It's become much less of an issue once I started seeing HL as QM light. I'm never gonna get out of this low rank anyway, considering just my play, so 'ban morales' it is, as ludicrous as that has always been.
scoobs
Member
I mean KT is good and all, but Ming li is still insane and a worthy first pick/first ban.
I'm way more afraid of KT right now, though I'd ban Tracer before either of them unless we can get her first pick.
KT is worthy of first pick, Li-Ming isn't. Dread was complaining all weekend about how EU teams were overvaluing her and it's true. Especially because I keep getting stuck with the players who run teleport build. It's a great build for certain comps, but you really shouldn't be picking it automatically and all too often that's way people roll with her.
Also, thanks to her OP state on launch, I honestly don't think many people are that skilled with her. She was very forgiving as she was so OP, and now that's gone people's weak play is shown up.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
My HL mmr is now 300 points below QM when it has historically always been above it.
scoobs
Member
Agree to disagree I guess. Just because KT is good now it doesn't mean somehow Li Ming isn't. That's one thing I hate about MOBA communities, its all flavor of the month meta bullshit. Somehow heroes who weren't even touched, or insignificantly nerfed are "worse" because another hero got buffed and people are playing them. The reason Li Ming is absurd isn't because her cooldown on disintegrate was too low, its her kit in general. She can kill your entire team by herself. She's insane, and the fact that KT is now too doesn't mean a damn thing. She's insane. It shouldn't shock anyone that she gets banned, nobody wants to deal with unavoidable 2000 damage orbs from a bush and 50 foot long disintegrate beam that slows your entire team.
At least KT has some vulnerabilities (no escapes whatsoever, practically 0 defensive utility). Li Ming has it all in spades, just like Tracer. Its annoying to deal with, so people ban them.
brickwalker0
Member
i haven't had too much trouble with Tracer, she seems to have some hard counters that i tend to play a lot lately (Lunara, Cho mostly).
Li Ming seems to have zero counter play which makes her more ban worthy (barring Tracer).
Kael has stupid numbers atm.
Illidan is just...annoying.
what's also interesting is that there are about 6 heroes that i'd say are worthy of bans (Thrall, Falstad, Xul in addition to the above three).
Li Ming seems to have zero counter play which makes her more ban worthy (barring Tracer).
Kael has stupid numbers atm.
Illidan is just...annoying.
what's also interesting is that there are about 6 heroes that i'd say are worthy of bans (Thrall, Falstad, Xul in addition to the above three).
I'm not saying Li-Ming isn't good - she is, absolutely, and happy to have her in my team. It's about drafting strategy - the first pick slot should be the most OP or game changing hero you can have. There's a huge difference between slot 1 and slot 3, and that first pick shapes the draft so much. Right now KT is performing a lot better than Li-Ming, and more importantly people have forgotten how to play against him.
The other thing is, you can't really take two mages on a team and expect to win. By taking Li-Ming first you lock yourself out of KT.
Note - this is all based on the idea of playing the odds for the best team over a number of matches. If your person in a lot 1 is great with li-Ming but not good with other heroes, then by all means have them play li-Ming. Individual skill beats meta heroes 9/10 at our skill levels in my experience.
The other thing is, you can't really take two mages on a team and expect to win. By taking Li-Ming first you lock yourself out of KT.
Note - this is all based on the idea of playing the odds for the best team over a number of matches. If your person in a lot 1 is great with li-Ming but not good with other heroes, then by all means have them play li-Ming. Individual skill beats meta heroes 9/10 at our skill levels in my experience.
Agree on your bans. I'd also add Zagara and ETC to that list depending upon map and comp. Some maps Zagara really is monstrous and if available should absolutely be banned out. ETC is worth banning in the second wave if he's threatened and you are lacking interrupts.
I'm beginning to wonder if Zagara isn't better than Xul again by the way. Not sure why but she's back to feeling really strong and impactful again without any actual changes happening...
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Countering Li Ming is easy imo, just dodge her shit.
Scrubleague though so not nearly as easy higher up.
One interesting thing I want to bring up re: Tracer is her pick/ban rate.
For a good portion of the week, she was like 15-30%. She's up to 48.9% in all brackets now making her the 8th most popular hero in Hero League. That is a seriously high pickrate for a hero you have to spend $60 up front to get.
The post Tracer launch Overwatch Origins sales must've been swell for Blizzard.
I'm there too. We duo'd and went something like 12-22 last week...we typically win 55% o r more of our games. It sucked. Ketch said he's been struggling too. Seeing this somehow makes me feel a tiny bit better.
Not sure what happened or what changed (if anything), but the losses keep coming. Last night, for example, Ketch and I got an Abathur twice in a row while the opposition got Thrall (no second specialist, for whatever reason) and Jaina. We won the Jaina game, thankfully. Just been a lot of that stuff. Running into double heal comps, or double tank comps, or Abathur + Nova/Nova + Gazlowe. I mean, Gaz is definitely better, but I still cringe if I get one in QM and the enemy gets a Sylvanas or Xul or what have you.
I did have some fun last night playing Nazeebo again for the first time in a bit. While Li-Ming is mostly bad news for Zeeb, the ones running teleport builds just love to teleport in and get aggressive...and then eat the Toads of Hugeness for half or more of their health while Spiders tick on them and their escape is gone. FeelsGoodMan.
Same thing for Tracer's blinking in aggressively cause they almost always come face first. They either have to recall out or eat it. Was a good time.
For a good portion of the week, she was like 15-30%. She's up to 48.9% in all brackets now making her the 8th most popular hero in Hero League. That is a seriously high pickrate for a hero you have to spend $60 up front to get.
The post Tracer launch Overwatch Origins sales must've been swell for Blizzard.
I'm there too. We duo'd and went something like 12-22 last week...we typically win 55% o r more of our games. It sucked. Ketch said he's been struggling too. Seeing this somehow makes me feel a tiny bit better.
Not sure what happened or what changed (if anything), but the losses keep coming. Last night, for example, Ketch and I got an Abathur twice in a row while the opposition got Thrall (no second specialist, for whatever reason) and Jaina. We won the Jaina game, thankfully. Just been a lot of that stuff. Running into double heal comps, or double tank comps, or Abathur + Nova/Nova + Gazlowe. I mean, Gaz is definitely better, but I still cringe if I get one in QM and the enemy gets a Sylvanas or Xul or what have you.
I did have some fun last night playing Nazeebo again for the first time in a bit. While Li-Ming is mostly bad news for Zeeb, the ones running teleport builds just love to teleport in and get aggressive...and then eat the Toads of Hugeness for half or more of their health while Spiders tick on them and their escape is gone. FeelsGoodMan.
Same thing for Tracer's blinking in aggressively cause they almost always come face first. They either have to recall out or eat it. Was a good time.
scoobs
Member
Zagara has always been insane. I always ban her on spider Queen, her creep wins games. I'm very curious what changes are coming to her. I remember blizzard mentioning changes for her during that Reddit Q&A. A 3rd ult rumored, which sounds unnecessary but whatever I'm all for weird changes like that.
I've been playing so much nazeebo too! It's funny watching his win date tumble on hotslogs since tracer was released. She counters him so hard. Still love plying him, toads so sick damage
I've been playing so much nazeebo too! It's funny watching his win date tumble on hotslogs since tracer was released. She counters him so hard. Still love plying him, toads so sick damage
brickwalker0
Member
oh wow yeah i totally forgot about Zagara, like the ultimate solo-laner with incredible team fight capabilities. can't say ive seen her banned, at least not in awhile but i would totally add her to the "typical heroes to ban" list.
yeah id say Xul can be countered more easily than Zagara so i could see that. just gotta get a character that can get out/away from his root.
yeah id say Xul can be countered more easily than Zagara so i could see that. just gotta get a character that can get out/away from his root.
I haven't either which is why all the upset kind of dumbfounds me. I really feel like it's just general fear of mobile heroes (and potentially more coming) and people don't want that, so she's getting the brunt of it.
I don't really ever see her 100-0'ing anyone. It's more like 100-40. Maybe 100-25 and then whoever is support just heals it up. Meanwhile she's lost a good chunk of her own health too, in most cases. It rarely ever works for me (the sudden burst) when I use Tracer too. She's just annoying, like a fly or a gnat or a mosquito. Amazing at finishing kills, but ultimately no where near the level of power Li-Ming was or even Rehgar on that same patch.
Inevitably the Tracer's fuck up and have no recall and get rekt or have to leave the fight. Job done, as the peons in WoW would say. And this is from mainly playing support or Nazeebo against her when I wasn't Tracer myself.
I like this myself. I'm fine with there being some very strong options. Just so long as you can pick which strong options you are willing to deal with. It would be nice if there were more, but most mobas I watch competitively all seem to have a relatively narrow "common pick" pool and then a few players who go outside the norm so I guess it's just the way of it in this genre?
I mean, she's clearly got the winrate that will get her nerfed to some degree. That's unquestionable based on Blizzard's patching record.
I just think a month or two from now we'll look back, when Blizzard have potentially put her in the dumpster or at least clipped her wings a bit, and be like...it wasn't that big of a deal.
She wouldn't be the first hero we've done that with.
I just think a month or two from now we'll look back, when Blizzard have potentially put her in the dumpster or at least clipped her wings a bit, and be like...it wasn't that big of a deal.
She wouldn't be the first hero we've done that with.
scoobs
Member
Man, the tracers in my games are going like 18-0 with top hero damage. She's top win rate on hotslogs logs now too. Her top build is also sitting at 72.2% win rate, which is rather good. Was watching my boy Chu8 last night and he went from saying she's maybe tier 2 or 3 on day 1, to last night saying she's completely broken and 1000% getting nerfed hard. All the talents surrounding her recall are the obvious targets to me.
brickwalker0
Member
right, i like it too since there is at least a bit of variety in the comps but ive noticed it in other MOBAs too so it is part of the genre. it felt like when bans came out it was the exact same 2 heroes in the first phase (Li Ming and Illidan). then a few nerfs (and kael buff) came and you started to see others get banned which opens up more counter play in the actual picks.
as much as i like seeing Li Ming banned based purely on principal, id rather there be a few heroes that destroy her so she's not a 100% ban (or any hero for that matter).
I definitely agree the Recall talents will get hit. And honestly, they probably should - particularly Spatial Echo. Like you said (I think it was you?) previously, it's definitely an Ess of Johan level talent. I just don't think she needs any changes beyond that.
I've had some games where I went 0-2 deaths, but most were in the 3-5 range personally. Most of the Tracer's I face fall somewhere in the 3-5 range as well. Typically, the ones I've seen do the most damage (and net the flashy kills) die often, though. I can't remember if it was launch day or the day after, but we played Khroen from Gale Force eSports (one of their flex players) and he outdamaged Milly on Tracer by like 30k. He also died 6 times though and cost his team the game, while Milly only died like once or twice.
It will be intriguing to watch what happens with her starting tomorrow when everyone else gets their hands on her. I just don't want to see this become a reality:
Not just with her, but with any hero. I hate when they put heroes in the dumpster
except Nova, Li-Ming, and KT huehue
That's probably my favorite part of Tracer. That Li-Ming destruction.
Well C9 got destroyed, so you tell me. The final kills were like 3/4-2 or something like that.
I've been duoing a lot recently, and for some reason we are always, always first picking and in the second and third slots. What happens is our first player will always take the Mage slot (Li-Ming, Kael, Falstad) and then the enemy team picks some generic stuff. I then end up with Tracer as the third pick because she's open, and because the enemy team hasn't drafted her counters.
That seems to be the sweet spot for her - I'd be really nervous about first picking her, because it just encourages you to run into a team of Kael / Lunara / Medic or Lilli / Johanna / Thrall and get your head ripped off.
On the plus side - for the love of god don't first pick Jaina in the current environment. Good with her or not, tracer demolishes her and you don't want that happening. Either ban tracer or pick her later on.
That seems to be the sweet spot for her - I'd be really nervous about first picking her, because it just encourages you to run into a team of Kael / Lunara / Medic or Lilli / Johanna / Thrall and get your head ripped off.
On the plus side - for the love of god don't first pick Jaina in the current environment. Good with her or not, tracer demolishes her and you don't want that happening. Either ban tracer or pick her later on.
Yeah it was a non-factor in fights. Both games neither team had many kills. They just kind of got bullied around the map in game 2 thanks to the split soak and just being out-rotated in general I guess.
Kenma was doing a good job with Brightwing. Did a decent job with Kharazim the game before. Anything but him picking Uther every game.
EDIT: Don't think it was cause of Lili. I mean, they lost the draft, I guess, but think they are just tilted more than anything. They need to get their groove back.
Kenma was doing a good job with Brightwing. Did a decent job with Kharazim the game before. Anything but him picking Uther every game.
EDIT: Don't think it was cause of Lili. I mean, they lost the draft, I guess, but think they are just tilted more than anything. They need to get their groove back.
Ooh, one thing dread noted about dig and bakery. There was one map where Kharazim was open and they were picking (4th slot). However Dread pointed out that Uther would fit better and despite bakery's love of Kharazim they would be better off going with Uther / and li and behold they did.
It felt like Dig had a really strong and wide draft pool this weekend, compared to where they were a while back when Team Liquid hate drafted dps monk just to deny him for bakery.
It felt like Dig had a really strong and wide draft pool this weekend, compared to where they were a while back when Team Liquid hate drafted dps monk just to deny him for bakery.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Said so in a previous post but from the first regional qualifier to the summer regional, Snitch played a dozen different heroes.
Falstad Kael'thas Jaina Tyrande Zeratul Zagara Lunara Xul Tassadar Thrall Abathur Sonya
Over the last weekend alone he played 7 different ones.
Yeah, now that they skipped announcing it at PAX, it could be several weeks before we learn anything, especially if they use this week as the official release of Tracer, and count the 3 or 4 weeks to release of the next hero from there instead of last Tuesday.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Snitch played her once in Seoul.
http://us.battle.net/heroes/en/blog/20102776/first-look-balance-update-coming-this-week-4-25-2016
Changes to KT, Rexxar, Zeebo, Butcher.
Changes to KT, Rexxar, Zeebo, Butcher.
Nazeebo NERFS get wrecked you OP piece of shit.
Sarcasm if you can't tell.
Full notes for anybody who can't access the link.
added my first impressions.
The slight nerf to fel infusion is almost as meaningless as the buffs to the other talents. I think convection is still bad and mana shield is still situational. fel infusion probably still the pick. Double D at 16 might be worth it now over sun kings?
The buff to furnace is nice, the buff to charge and his talents are whatever. The best part of this I think is the buff to chop meat because it lets butcher do a lot better in lane, which makes him more useful in general.
I think meaningless changes. Garg sucks, not because of it's damage (which is alright) but because the AI is dumb. They need to just make it controllable already. But I guess the can't mess with him too much cuss they're afraid of his winrate like it means anything.
sweet changes. The leash range is SO important. The attack is is whatever, it doesn't really matter because his damage is so weak, but it would have felt terrible to have all that leash range and no increased range to the actual hero because then rexxar himself would actually literally be useless. They should have left the talent in so you could have even more attack range. Overall, I feel like the buffs just balance out because the talents got nerfed. Like if he had this buff to charge cooldown AND the old battle momentum talent then maybe he'd be worth a spot on a team, but as is now he's still pretty much in the same spot I feel.
Sarcasm if you can't tell.
Full notes for anybody who can't access the link.
added my first impressions.
The slight nerf to fel infusion is almost as meaningless as the buffs to the other talents. I think convection is still bad and mana shield is still situational. fel infusion probably still the pick. Double D at 16 might be worth it now over sun kings?
The buff to furnace is nice, the buff to charge and his talents are whatever. The best part of this I think is the buff to chop meat because it lets butcher do a lot better in lane, which makes him more useful in general.
I think meaningless changes. Garg sucks, not because of it's damage (which is alright) but because the AI is dumb. They need to just make it controllable already. But I guess the can't mess with him too much cuss they're afraid of his winrate like it means anything.
sweet changes. The leash range is SO important. The attack is is whatever, it doesn't really matter because his damage is so weak, but it would have felt terrible to have all that leash range and no increased range to the actual hero because then rexxar himself would actually literally be useless. They should have left the talent in so you could have even more attack range. Overall, I feel like the buffs just balance out because the talents got nerfed. Like if he had this buff to charge cooldown AND the old battle momentum talent then maybe he'd be worth a spot on a team, but as is now he's still pretty much in the same spot I feel.
Its only to Garg. Translated patch notes: garg is stupid and braindead atm.
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