Support NeoGAF

[Alavard]

Just played HL with two guys who went chogall.

cho was rank 3, gall was rank 29. pretty good stuff.

Isn't that good? Wasn't there a post on reddit in the last few weeks that ranked all characters on their effectiveness as a carry? Basically, it compared the winrates of all the characters when the highest MMR player on a team is playing them. Cho was at the very top, and Gall was at the very bottom.

Aha, found it:

https://www.reddit.com/r/heroesofthestorm/comments/440xot/know_your_carries_statistically/

 

[Ketch]

Yea I think it's awesome.

 

[Alavard]

On a side note, anyone run into the massive Gall bug yet? Apparently, on Dragon Shire, if Cho'Gall takes Dragon Knight, Gall can force the eject, and becomes disentangled from Cho. Cho continues to run around wherever, but Gall remains in the spot of the ejection, and stays invisible, untargetable, and can continue to use his abilities. This means Cho can just drop him off at the core, and Gall can wreck it with impunity. The only thing Cho has to do after that is not die, as that causes Gall to resync with Cho's position.

Sounds like it works with Garden Terrors too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0RlUpm-sRM&feature=youtu.be

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Uhh

If you're going to pick diablo

I've been seeing bad diablo builds

If you go diablo don't get-
DON'T get the health regen perk
DON'T get Lord of Terror

Too many bad diablos are doing this

it's baaad

get the apoc on death perk
get the reduced soulstone cost

god

baddies

 

[brian!]

greymane is really fun, kinda want to buy him cuz he's op in aram

his w turning on the sonya ult minigame would probably keep him interesting for a pretty long time

Enjoyed dread's stream last night, didnt catch him doing a rundown on the maps but saw him raging it out on booty bay. Liked the progression of "all you have to do is basic math and not be an idiot" -> reading out something from chat like "thx dread im learning a lot" -> the slow realization that his chat consist of the very ppl that cause him daily grief

Like it's pretty clear that most ppl in the game have a lack of understanding of core and fundamental things about the game, but something league had early on that hots doesnt is clear and watchable high lvl players w/ a gameplay a focus, and if dread's stream ever pops off he could be the first of a wave. I feel like dread might be onto this, like you could kind of sense him being kind of disconcerted that the idea of fighting down a person or down a talent level was something that ppl in his chat were learning

 

[Alur]

if dread's stream ever pops off he could be the first of a wave

Dread's stream would already be 2000-3000 viewers daily easily (aka, on the Grubby level) if he ever regularly streamed. I actually think he could be the first real breakout star that came solely from HOTS and pass that if he gave it the time, but... He's so damn inconsistent that he kills his own money making, though, and unfortunately it kind of also kills the viewing angle for the game IMO that folks like him just aren't into streaming.

He does streaming like most people do working out. Once or twice a week and hope it sticks.

I don't honestly think that the majority of people who view any streams are watching it solely to learn, though. I think that's how it starts for many but it almost always devolves into whatever personality you find the most appealing.

EDIT: Muting people will also mute pings in the future. Kinda surprised they didn't already do this...then again, the new ping timers are so restrictive you'd have to be a really persistent also to be abusing someone to that level.

 

[brian!]

Yeah not to learn but to have a specific figure exist, like chu and foerest arent really bad players but they hold a particular type of audience

Yah i trolled dread in chat and told him that ppl didnt listen to his pings cause he was muted, got eeeeeeeeeeeem

 

[Ketch]

greymane is really fun, kinda want to buy him cuz he's op in aram

his w turning on the sonya ult minigame would probably keep him interesting for a pretty long time

Enjoyed dread's stream last night, didnt catch him doing a rundown on the maps but saw him raging it out on booty bay. Liked the progression of "all you have to do is basic math and not be an idiot" -> reading out something from chat like "thx dread im learning a lot" -> the slow realization that his chat consist of the very ppl that cause him daily grief

Like it's pretty clear that most ppl in the game have a lack of understanding of core and fundamental things about the game, but something league had early on that hots doesnt is clear and watchable high lvl players w/ a gameplay a focus, and if dread's stream ever pops off he could be the first of a wave. I feel like dread might be onto this, like you could kind of sense him being kind of disconcerted that the idea of fighting down a person or down a talent level was something that ppl in his chat were learning

I also feel that in an effort to keep the game simple the mechanics have actually just been obscured to the point were not only will you miss them, but you'd feel like you weren't doing anything wrong. The easiest example is soaking xp. to a new player it feels like there's no reason to kill the minions so there's no need to be in lane so you might as well roam and maybe you even get a kill..... But 5 minutes later youre down a heroic advantage and wondering how your losing. Must be your teammates fault.

then you throw in map objectives and it becomes even more counter productive. Like how much XP is lost in the top two lanes of booty bay on the average do you think?

 

[brian!]

In general mobas are kind of opaque and i can kind of understand why ppl might have trouble understanding certain things (one big thing is that it's not entirely clear to newer players that 1 person getting minion xp is the same as 2 ppl)

But on the other hand it really is heavily simplified, like the one real resource in the game is arranged in a huge font at the top of the screen.

Agree on map objectives being a trap and kind of tricking a lot of ppl playing the game like mario party

 

[Alur]

Must be your teammates fault.

It's always their fault. Those lazy, good for nothing, non-soaking, feeding, wrong heroic picking, seasoned marksman taking sons a bitches.

Like how much XP is lost in the top two lanes of booty bay on the average do you think?

Haha. On a serious note, I can't even imagine. Copious amounts.

At least people don't yolo to their death at the watch tower as much anymore.

 

[Ketch]

Yea I agree all moba are pretty confusing to a new player.... But maybe like a bigger visual indicator for XP outta minions or something might help. Getting gold from a last hit by comparison is like hitting the jackpot in Vegas.

Also tried nydus yesterday. It's terrible. Doesnt even work with her kit really.

 

[Alur]

It makes it look like you spread a bunch more creep though!

 

[Ketch]

patch out.

ess of johan removed.

tal rasha bonus reduced from 20% to 10%

astral presence needs below 25% mana remaining to trigger

scaling on magic missile reduced by 0.5% lol

"We think her ability to do incredible damage is awesome"

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Lol that's much less than I expected haven't picked Tal Rasha's in a while anyway. The slow is much more obnoxious after all.

 

[Ketch]

Lol that's much less than I expected haven't picked Tal Rasha's in a while anyway. The slow is much more obnoxious after all.

yea I think ess of johan removal is big. and will actually impact the slow at 20 since you wont be able to pull a bunch of people into it.

I think her biggest issue is magic missiles, would have liked to see 1 or 2 seconds added to the CD. but whateves... she did take a big hit to the most obnoxious face roll build though.



Like with out ess of johan the orb aint even that good.

also big buff to anub's shield. which is good. Chen has been looking good lately too... warrior meta is in a pretty good spot I feel.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Of course the ess of johan removal is huge but the writing on that was on the wall. Pretty much no one who played her expected it to stay.
It was a stupid talent, but dominance was untouched and I've occasionally taken that talent over ess and she didn't feel that much weaker. The orb will remain insane until they fix the telegraphing or the explosion radius to the animation.

Greymane seems well positioned atm, picked a lot in competitive.

 

[Alavard]

The buffs to Anub'Arak's shields are a 38 point increase at level 20. Not exactly massive.

 

[Ketch]

The buffs to Anub'Arak's shields are a 38 point increase at level 20. Not exactly massive.

I mean maybe it sounds bad on paper at 20, but it'll be better in the early and mid game which is when it's most important and by 20 you have other tools for survivability as well.

 

[Alavard]

I mean maybe it sounds bad on paper at 20, but it'll be better in the early and mid game which is when it's most important and by 20 you have other tools for survivability as well.

It sounds bad on paper at all levels.

 

[Silexx]

Of course the ess of johan removal is huge but the writing on that was on the wall. Pretty much no one who played her expected it to stay.
It was a stupid talent, but dominance was untouched and I've occasionally taken that talent over ess and she didn't feel that much weaker. The orb will remain insane until they fix the telegraphing or the explosion radius to the animation.

Greymane seems well positioned atm, picked a lot in competitive.

I feel like Greymane is used as a counter-pick to Li-Ming. At least, that's why I pick him.

 

[brian!]

He's pretty good against li ming tho im sure he's picked for a slew of other reasons too

 

[Milly79]

I wish they'd really buff Anub

 

[brian!]

Im ok w/ him inhabiting the niche he has currently, but id really really like it if they put back the aimable q, even tho it was ridiculous

 

[Alavard]

I guess most of my problems with Anub probably relate specifically to Quick Match. I'm finding more and more that if I solo Q as a warrior, I will be the only warrior on the team, and due to the match-making rules, the enemy team will have a warrior. Anub is really weak as a solo-tank.

I love the ease of Quick Match, but damn it's hard on niche heroes.

 

[Yoshichan]

Ming got fucked

 

[Cerato]

I feel like it's hard to understand my role as anub. I basically exist to chain a stun, do a little damage, and then flee.

With arthas, I walk straight into their front line, hit my ae snare, and pretend to fight someone while blowing a bunch of defensive cooldowns and getting focused while the whole enemy team dies.

One of those is a tank, the other is anub : /

 

[racketpunch]

I mean maybe it sounds bad on paper at 20, but it'll be better in the early and mid game which is when it's most important and by 20 you have other tools for survivability as well.

I'm under the impression that late game is what matters most.

 

[kirblar]

I feel like it's hard to understand my role as anub. I basically exist to chain a stun, do a little damage, and then flee.

With arthas, I walk straight into their front line, hit my ae snare, and pretend to fight someone while blowing a bunch of defensive cooldowns and getting focused while the whole enemy team dies.

One of those is a tank, the other is anub : /

Anub is a disruptobot. His scarabs and abilities are all designed to be very annoying for your enemies to deal with.

 

[brian!]

Some things anub is good at:

1v1 lanes like in dshire
Against greedier comps that go all in on things like medic or chogall
Follow up cc
Buddyblock
Doesnt really die unless u fuk up
Can build for decent peel and aoe and waveclear

Hes bad at soaking dmg, and only ok at dealing dmg after certain talents. His 5v5 is pretty bad unless your comp is built right, but he's good in skirmishes.

@late game mattering the most: this is the case mainly for ppl who dont know how to finish, so basically every game. But in general early game matters the most the way this game is built, part of the reason raynor has fallen out of favor for example

 

[IcyEyes]

That nerf on Li Ming is just dumb.

I Expect people will complain (in HL) when someone will pick her since she is seriously fragile and now she will no longer have the same impact in the match.

So, Jaina and Kael'thas are getting back the crown.

Ps I expect another nerf. Her abilities range.

 

[racketpunch]

@late game mattering the most: this is the case mainly for ppl who dont know how to finish, so basically every game. But in general early game matters the most the way this game is built, part of the reason raynor has fallen out of favor for example

Just clarifying, you're saying that late game only matters the most to people who can't finish. One late game death pretty much means its game over. I would argue that late game doesn't matter to people who don't know how to finish.

 

[kirblar]

That nerf on Li Ming is just dumb.

I Expect people will complain (in HL) when someone will pick her since she is seriously fragile and now she will no longer have the same impact in the match.

So, Jaina and Kael'thas are getting back the crown.

Ps I expect another nerf. Her abilities range.

The nerf is dumb because it's doing exactly what it was designed to do? (Make her a non-faceroll hero)

 

[Ketch]

at 20 youre pretty much gonna get hardened anyway, but my point was that the buff is more beneficial in the early game.


I though anub was pretty underrated before. two stuns and a crazy good CC on his heroic and a melee hero with a reliable escape. He's not a main tank, nor a high damage bruiser, but his damage isn't that bad and his CC is nuts. Throw him in a double warrior comp with a leo or stitches

also, I think li ming is still gonna have the intended impact of 1 kill = 3 kills, which is already pretty strong and still very possible despite not having a ranged condemn.

 

[brian!]

Just clarifying, you're saying that late game only matters the most to people who can't finish. One late game death pretty much means its game over. I would argue that late game doesn't matter to people who don't know how to finish.

I meant more like
A comp that is based around late game power should be rolled over by a comp that is able to garner an early lead (insofar as the main resources of the game are exp., map presence, and talent tiers), but in most cases the latter does not know how to fully take advantage of their lead and the former eventually subsumes them

So in cases where ppl can get the early lead but cannot finish the game, the team that is more powerful late usually prevails.

It's prtty comp dependent tho, like a strong late game comp w/ no waveclear should die to the weaker late game comp w/ good waveclear every time theoretically

 

[Alur]

EDIT: Just saw Rehgar is finally below Li-Ming in winrate. And now he's got another nerf. This one might just get him back in line.

That nerf on Li Ming is just dumb.

I Expect people will complain (in HL) when someone will pick her since she is seriously fragile and now she will no longer have the same impact in the match.

So, Jaina and Kael'thas are getting back the crown.

Ps I expect another nerf. Her abilities range.

If you expect another nerf then how do you foresee Jaina and KT getting back the crown? KT ate quite the nerf himself which has really hurt his winrate. He's the second lowest winrate hero now.

This nerf is a minor setback at best. She still does insane damage and is quite survivable considering the range, which you mentioned. Only makes sense to hurt her survivability (which was definitely way too high) and see where she lies.

For myself I'm surprised it wasn't worse. We've been facerolling with her and Rehgar since the day she dropped.

 

[brian!]

Im not entirely sure of the difference between the 50% and 25% thing, like does it affect her ability to spam indefinitely? If it does, it makes the lack of a range nerf make more sense

Feel like the rising storm nerf (which looks substantial) has something to do with their inability to code out the indefinite storm stack, but it kind of results in having to go specifically into a build to get full value which is nice

 

[Alur]

Im not entirely sure of the difference between the 50% and 25% thing, like does it affect her ability to spam indefinitely? If it does, it makes the lack of a range nerf make more sense

I would imagine it does to a degree. Or at least spam constantly, maybe not necessarily indefinitely, though. Given enough time to poke she could theoretically be the same I guess? I honestly think they could remove that talent and she'd be fine. What I played of her I never used it anyway and thought her mana issues were pretty good compared to others (particularly Greymane when he first dropped).

 

[Ketch]

Yea... well... it must be like the difference between always having half mana and always having 1/4th mana

It's actually kind of a bad talent now isn't it? You should just stop chasing or go back to base at 25% mana anyway right?

I only played her once and thought the synergy between force armor and the health return at 4 would be better.

 

[IcyEyes]

EDIT: Just saw Rehgar is finally below Li-Ming in winrate. And now he's got another nerf. This one might just get him back in line.

If you expect another nerf then how do you foresee Jaina and KT getting back the crown? KT ate quite the nerf himself which has really hurt his winrate. He's the second lowest winrate hero now.

This nerf is a minor setback at best. She still does insane damage and is quite survivable considering the range, which you mentioned. Only makes sense to hurt her survivability (which was definitely way too high) and see where she lies.

For myself I'm surprised it wasn't worse. We've been facerolling with her and Rehgar since the day she dropped.

I must admit her survivability is pretty good if you stay focused on the match, but as I said her nerf is pretty harsh. Lowering the astral presence from 50% to 25% hurts a lot since she mainly relies on her abilities rather than the basic attack.
That is the main problem.

 

[Ketch]

Yea she'll have to actually manage her mana now.... not very harsh really.

 

[brian!]

How much does a spell rotation from her take up? Im assuming shed still be poke queen, but wouldnt be able to clean up as hard w/ the resets

 

[Milly79]

20, 70, 80 for either heroic, another 30 if you gotta tele out.

590 mana at 10. Do the math, wizard.

 

[Ketch]

4




edit: I made that up

 

[brian!]

Oh so 25% is a prtty big deal then
Wait whats the mana gain in this game, where's she at ~16, that's probably more important

 

[Milly79]

six fiddy

 

[brian!]

25% is a pretty good number for that talent i think

Can still pretty much spam q and w, but her ult never needed to be part of her poke

 

[racketpunch]

Can't wait to test out the new Li Ming after work. The Astral nerf doesn't seem too bad but I'm just thinking off the top of my head and would need hands on experience for better judgement. Doesn't seem too harsh because I NEVER went back for mana for any reason. Astral plus the well was way more than enough to get my mana back for the next fight.

 

[Milly79]

brian i think the correct answer is 4, ketch is always right

 

[IcyEyes]

After trying some rotation/mana management with Li Ming I played some matches and I have to say that if one if a bit more careful she can be played more or less the same as before the patch.

I don't miss Ess of Johan.
Tal Rasha’s Elements it is not a must pick now.

 

[Milly79]

It never was. The 60% slow is dumb as fuck.