jaundicejuice
Member
Li-Ming + Xul is lane cancer.
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Heroes of the Storm |OT2| Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
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TDLink
Member
I think Li Ming alone is just cancer for the game period. They have to do something about her. Being able to destroy or greatly damage structures like fountains and towers less than a minute into the game is stupid. Her damage is just too high. I think making the CD reset not affect her heroic is also something to consider.
jaundicejuice
Member
Lili's pretty fun to use against Xul when you have Shake It Off and Herbal Cleanse. Combined those talents with Fast Fee and Lili's next to impossible to lock down and with Herbal Cleanse you can free any locked down target.
Best thing about this patch is alt-clicking abilities to let others know about CD's.
Best thing about this patch is alt-clicking abilities to let others know about CD's.
jaundicejuice
Member
Now it seems like everyone is cheesing structures. From Li-Ming to Murky to Zag to Aba. There's just so much bullshit in this game that would be cut out if there was BD protection. You shouldn't be able to leap frog structures and ignore towers or chip away at shit that's behind towers and a wall from the fog with impunity. Cheesing buildings has always been there and that was something that annoyed me back in the alpha but it's become extremely problematic and more pronounced lately. It's such a dumb problem because other games have dealt with this same issue and already have solutions.
Took a break, came back, game seems worse off. Back to not playing again until there's a major patch or update.
Took a break, came back, game seems worse off. Back to not playing again until there's a major patch or update.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
It's really dumb, deleting a well behind a wall takes 2.5 rotations with Ming Lee and afterwards you can just bully people out of the lane and they'll have to B or stay at low HP.
For some reason though I've only seen it once over the past weekend in competitive.
The best counter I've seen so far is to push that lane heavily as 4, but that obviously only works in uncoordinated low MMR games.
For some reason though I've only seen it once over the past weekend in competitive.
The best counter I've seen so far is to push that lane heavily as 4, but that obviously only works in uncoordinated low MMR games.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
A good solution would be to make it so that non-specialist Skills do less damage to buildings that still have a fort around it. Or something. Something like that.
I know right?
I can't wait to be healer like Rehgar or Malf and after a botch teamfight where we get destroyed I ping my ult that I never used to let my team know what's good.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
xul is hard to play in team fights though. laning is absolutely insane but its really hard to be offensive with bone prison. i didnt realize it was so short range. really fun to play but definitely need to master the spacing. i usually choose mages to confuse the opponent but nova can hit so damn hard. i like the character but he is most definitely a squishy specialist.
just to add, it's also tough to time his shit because theyre all delayed. scythe is delayed, prison is delayed, nova is delayed. so it almost feels like im a mage. but i dont have an instant because even curse needs a target to swing. it's hard to get the debuff on in team fights due to needing to be close enough to aa a target. i cant just click the ground and swing with the increased range, like leoric's q. bone shield is great early levels but by late game it's always down. you cant reliably dive in and nova in the middle of a group either, so youre always flanking around looking for the right angle to the hit the most. mortal strike though.. yes. yes. i love that it shows the healing reduced. i wish this wasnt lvl 20 but like lvl 16.
i knew xul would not be a face roll char like ming was, but xul really needs a good core 4 members who can stall to let him move around.
dat minion clear though.
just to add, it's also tough to time his shit because theyre all delayed. scythe is delayed, prison is delayed, nova is delayed. so it almost feels like im a mage. but i dont have an instant because even curse needs a target to swing. it's hard to get the debuff on in team fights due to needing to be close enough to aa a target. i cant just click the ground and swing with the increased range, like leoric's q. bone shield is great early levels but by late game it's always down. you cant reliably dive in and nova in the middle of a group either, so youre always flanking around looking for the right angle to the hit the most. mortal strike though.. yes. yes. i love that it shows the healing reduced. i wish this wasnt lvl 20 but like lvl 16.
i knew xul would not be a face roll char like ming was, but xul really needs a good core 4 members who can stall to let him move around.
dat minion clear though.
TDLink
Member
Do you see how one of those is not like the other though? Some specialists being able to hurt some structures very early game is alright. But Li Ming is not a specialist, she's an assassin. She should not be able to do this. Also, even those specialists that can do some damage can not so easily completely take out a structure like she can. It's ridiculous.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Someone did that once, he even had the master skin. He was fairly bad. No clue what it's supposed to be, maybe they mean the totem double shield combo.
This is very deliberately a minor patch because we are right in the middle of the first set of regionals. I don't expect them to make big changes to the game in those circumstances, indeed I'm glad they aren't doing.
They have a *lot* of changes coming now - talent reworks for multiple heroes (Kael, Tychus, gazlowe, arthas, illidan) plus band and heroe we don't know about. Plus probably a new map.
I think once we clear the current run of tournaments we'll see some really big content drops and balance changes.
(I also think we'll see a full scale relaunch of the game once they are ready with seasons)
They have a *lot* of changes coming now - talent reworks for multiple heroes (Kael, Tychus, gazlowe, arthas, illidan) plus band and heroe we don't know about. Plus probably a new map.
I think once we clear the current run of tournaments we'll see some really big content drops and balance changes.
(I also think we'll see a full scale relaunch of the game once they are ready with seasons)
oh good to know
A well played Rehgar with Feral Lunge already darted in to deal damage last year. We discussed this. It was a staple for some time before they went full healing on him with talents. Then came the rework a month ago. Now it does 125% less damage than it did last Spring (200% to 75%) and 25% less damage than it did a month ago (100% to 75%). It's not much of a killing blow crit anymore. It's use is almost entirely in placing totems on runaways now and that was even before this patch. That started with the February 10th patch, but the shield build was still so good it didn't matter.
Unfortunately he's been hit 3 times in a row. His damage has been neutered significantly. Rising Storm does less damage. No more increase on duration via talent. Less shielding per cast if you take the shield buff which hurts both your survivability and/or whoever you were casting the initial shield on. Hell, Lightning Shield in general does less damage even before the Rising Storm nerf. Then you add in the fact that Ancestral Healing went 80 seconds to 100 seconds and that hurts the yolo Rehgar play style even more.
These changes have shifted us back from a hero who just one month ago could get in a fight and mix it up and even stay there for a while, to a hero who must now once again play on the periphery, toss heals, and be a buff bot and hope for a straggler to run that they can hamstring with Earthbind or finish with a diminished Feral Lunge. With the OP patch, you and whoever you shielded with you literally did enough damage that you could sit in a fight and kill the enemy before they could kill you. You don't contribute as much damage now, so you can't sit in a fight as long unless it's lopsided.
Sure, you can dart in and out as you say, but the amount of kills you finish is reduced. The damage per lunge is pretty soft. It's a straight positioning tool now which is fine I guess. His shield build still works great for other melee heroes, but his days of being right up in the shit came and went very quickly. He's not bad, but to imply you hang in a fight like you did on February 2nd seems a bit disingenuous to me.
I'm sorry but we just have to disagree here. Nothing has changed about his personal damage in the last 3 weeks since the feral lunge nerf. It is exactly where it was before, and a good rehgar will still do it.
And rehgar couldn't play like this before his rework because he couldn't take feral lunge. His healing was so weak, and he had so many talents for it, he had to play heal bot as a solo support. Now no matter how you want to build him he has to be diving into combat to get worth out of the hero. That's a fundamental change that none of these nerfs has actually altered.
I just don't see how you ever turn him back into a healbot standing on the sidelines. You literally cannot talent that way anymore ad in fact if you go totem build you are even more aggressive as you need the totem in their face when you plant it. Sure, bad players will hang back, but his fundamental design pushes you into combat if you want to make the most of it and that's still going to be the case now this patch has hit.
And rehgar couldn't play like this before his rework because he couldn't take feral lunge. His healing was so weak, and he had so many talents for it, he had to play heal bot as a solo support. Now no matter how you want to build him he has to be diving into combat to get worth out of the hero. That's a fundamental change that none of these nerfs has actually altered.
I just don't see how you ever turn him back into a healbot standing on the sidelines. You literally cannot talent that way anymore ad in fact if you go totem build you are even more aggressive as you need the totem in their face when you plant it. Sure, bad players will hang back, but his fundamental design pushes you into combat if you want to make the most of it and that's still going to be the case now this patch has hit.
Yeah i dunno if the self shield rehgar wrecking days are over but if the changes have altered that it's only a good thing, he always should have been shielding others if we wanna get kinda literal about support role and whatnot, his solo playstyle was always a result of overtuning, tho i think maledict is referring more to his base style of being able to move in and out of combat (drawing aggro, totem, etc.) which is built into his base kit w/ the z change. Im unsure where this idea that his build has to turn away from shield now came from tho?
All will be revealed at eu regionals
All will be revealed at eu regionals
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Again with these presumptions that EU Meta counts.
Edit: yh this weekend
Edit: yh this weekend
Yes, that's my view Brian.
Rehgar was never able to survive in the middle of a team fight after his rework, unless the enemy team was bad. He has no defences, fairly low health and is easily cc'ed and burst. His role has always been to dive in at opportune moments to secure kills and bring some extra damage on a focus target (and cc them with the totem).
I don't think rehgar should be like a melee assassin, and be stuck in melee combat when he goes in and have the tools to survive it. He should be like Kharazim - going in at the right time to apply pressure to a specific point and then getting out.
Which is what he did when released, and what he'll still do now. He won't be able to out duel most of the roster, which is a good thing, but he's still the hero you pick when you want extra pressure point damage in melee combat and when you want a support who synergies brilliantly with melee.
Rehgar was never able to survive in the middle of a team fight after his rework, unless the enemy team was bad. He has no defences, fairly low health and is easily cc'ed and burst. His role has always been to dive in at opportune moments to secure kills and bring some extra damage on a focus target (and cc them with the totem).
I don't think rehgar should be like a melee assassin, and be stuck in melee combat when he goes in and have the tools to survive it. He should be like Kharazim - going in at the right time to apply pressure to a specific point and then getting out.
Which is what he did when released, and what he'll still do now. He won't be able to out duel most of the roster, which is a good thing, but he's still the hero you pick when you want extra pressure point damage in melee combat and when you want a support who synergies brilliantly with melee.
When you go from being in the shit to being on the periphery, yes that "feels bad man". I don't even see how you can argue that. I didn't say it was good for the game that he could stand toe to toe with virtually anyone a month ago, just that he now cannot.
We can agree to disagree. We do that a lot. I think what you are referring to as being more active is different than what I am. Just because he can dot in and lunge and place a totem doesn't mean he's much different than he was 3 months ago in the end. He just has one more tool now than he did before. He is, however, much different than he was one month ago when he could actually mix it up in a fight.
Prior to the change to put all his healing power into talents, people used Feral Lunge just like you're implying Maledict. All I'm saying is that it will go right back to that...hang back, hang back, go in when it's safe/you have a playmaking opportunity, gtfo. The difference being a month ago you never had to get back out.
That is the definition of a different play style boys. How you guys are implying that he is the same blows my mind. I could literally sit in a fight for the duration when Li-Ming came out. Now there is no way I can do that with the damage nerfed, the survivability nerfed, and Ancestral being on a longer cooldown forcing me to fight less frequently.
I'm not saying he does. I'm saying his build shifts from Rehgar focused to someone else focused, or from someone else focused + Rehgar additional shield to perhaps taking a different level 1 talent because the survivability + damage has diminished overall.
LOL, really? Are you sure you played him after the nerf? We did this shit constantly and other Rehgar's we played were doing it as well. We don't even play at scrub MMR. We play at a decent level and it was all too common. It was definitely a thing and the main reason he had to be gutted. That's where you and I are differing on this argument, though.
You clearly didn't play him that way. I'm saying now he cannot play that way anymore. That's the difference. How you say he can be played now is exactly what I'm saying he can do now...I'm saying he could do more before, however, and you obviously were not doing it that way which IMO you missed the boat on.
EDIT: Being able to trade in a team fight 1 for 1 and sometimes more was what made him ridiculous and what made the changes so fun for the little while they lasted. Going back to being a pick off specialist is a disappointment is all I'm saying and why I said I wished they had just added Feral Lunge and then slowly did the talent changes instead of making him OP all at once and going backwards. What you're implying is his role now is something we agree on, we just don't agree on how strong he was before apparently.
Because he was busted.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
New hero out, still talking about rehgar
I never said he wasn't. He needed the nerfs.
My issue is with them making him busted and then making his play style less fun afterwards, instead of slowly buffing him up. As I've said previously, the mere addition of Feral Lunge makes him much more fun and they should've stopped there for that patch. Once Rehgar's got weaned on being able to stand in a fight for 5-10 seconds at a time, asking them to go back out and pick their spots feels like playing a new hero again if you had never touched him before.
Do the talents later and piece meal so that they could get their bearings on how it affected the meta and his power level. Making him a god and then reverting it is not very fun design, particularly when folks would've been happy to just have Lunge baseline if that was all they had gotten.
One must always talk about baegar.
That's what folks were talking about yesterday in here too. I dunno if it's any good or not. Post patch I always did the shields or a few shields + utility.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
I primarily run totem build, but switch to shield depending on enemy comp. Melee heavy is always totem build. The 95% slow talent is basically an aoe bone prison for 1 second and I can move it to pursue or reposition. It is way more op than the shields, but it doesn't look as sexy without the big numbers. Not say shield build is bad, but totem build seems much more impactful for team fights. Shield for certain maps/comps for sure though.
Ok let's stop talkin about lame-gar and talk about xul instead
What's every bodies build? Scythe build mortal strikes all the way? I think so. Increased range and slow on a 4s CD is good then at 20 it wins the game.
What's the bone armor talent? I've been going shade and only using it in those oh shit moments.
Lots of discussion on the heroic, and I originally thought it was poison for sure, but now I'm not 100%. Mages work pretty good against ranged assassins. And there's a lots of ranged assassins trying to counter xul.
And then lvl 7 I've been getting the life steal from cursed strikes on heroes so that if I ever get dived or 1v1'd I become surprising hard to kill. But seems like people like the HP from raised skeletons better. Maybe it's a situation of useful more often vs useful when you really need it?
I think he's really good on tod, dshrine, ishrines, and spider. Kind of good on booty bay and sky temple. And kind of bad on boe, cursed and garden.
What's every bodies build? Scythe build mortal strikes all the way? I think so. Increased range and slow on a 4s CD is good then at 20 it wins the game.
What's the bone armor talent? I've been going shade and only using it in those oh shit moments.
Lots of discussion on the heroic, and I originally thought it was poison for sure, but now I'm not 100%. Mages work pretty good against ranged assassins. And there's a lots of ranged assassins trying to counter xul.
And then lvl 7 I've been getting the life steal from cursed strikes on heroes so that if I ever get dived or 1v1'd I become surprising hard to kill. But seems like people like the HP from raised skeletons better. Maybe it's a situation of useful more often vs useful when you really need it?
I think he's really good on tod, dshrine, ishrines, and spider. Kind of good on booty bay and sky temple. And kind of bad on boe, cursed and garden.
That single change was nice, but it didn't solve the core issue w/ him, which was that you had to take the healing talents at each tier.
Look at how the talents are now arranged- you have 1 tier (13) where you HAVE to pick a healing throughput talent, and none of the other tiers actually have them any more - you can now pick utility options because the majority of his healing is built into his kit.
They got the numbers wrong (by a lot) when they put him out there. It happens. But complaining that you can't faceroll a hero (and a healer frontlining and not having to worry about positioning is very much that) is just an absurd complaint.
I've been going for Q range/CD reduction. Taking Mortal Wound or Bone Spear at 20. Mortal Wound wins games but it's not always necessary in QM cause of the dumb comps sometimes. Bone Spear is good fun. Wish that was baseline but then he'd be OpieOP insane.
Mages are good for zoning out ranged squishies and it does have better range. Most games everyone just dives all over me, though, so Poison Nova is an easy thing to land thus far.
After using it for a bit, I think the level 7 talent to heal on Cursed Strikes isn't all that great. I typically just die anyway if I have enough dudes around me to get value out of it. I haven't tried the skeleton heal, but Glaurung and most every other streamer I've seen playing him has been utilizing that. I didn't know if it would be good because there's less and less minions around late game in my experience, but maybe it's the go to.
I thought he was pretty good on Towers. Gets good value on Tomb as well. Felt like I was a waste on Cursed Hollow even though I had top damage.
I dunno if you are just choosing not to read or selectively reading or you just dig throwing haymakers, but that's not what this discussion has been about. I've already replied to you stating that. I've said 3500 times he needed to be nerfed and another 3500 that he was ridiculous. I appreciate you attempting to continue that narrative and put those words in my mouth, though.
Buffing Rehgar to the moon instead of buffing him incrementally is my issue and has been from the start. Just because he was OP and needed the nerf doesn't mean it's absurd to note that they made him extremely engaging and are now putting him basically back to where he was last Spring, just with a little better shields and longer AH cooldown. Being back to his pre-healing talent change play style is just dandy...but it's a far cry from the play style he just had. They gave Rehgar players a Ferrari and took it back in exchange for a Prius. That's not a complaint, it's just the fact. Prius' are fine, but when you've driven the Ferrari it's hard to get excited about your gas mileage in the downgrade even if you needed to save the money (or in this case, the balance of the game).
Would him picking healing talents for another month with Feral Lunge in tow really be any worse than him bodying everybody for a whole month while everyone bitches incessantly about it? I don't really understand the angle on that argument. His talent changes could've been added in this patch after more testing and seeing how he performed with the FL addition. They could've added the talents as they were and no baseline Feral Lunge, then nerf the talents and given Feral Lunge so it felt like you got something in the exchange.
There are several different ways they could've approached it where it didn't feel like you had 3 different heroes in the span of a month in a half, but this is the way they chose and so now we've had 3 Rehgars:
Chain Heal boring Rehgar -->> OP as fuck in your face Rehgar -->> In-n-Out Burger Rehgar
It should've went:
Chain Heal boring Rehgar -->> Chain Healing playmaker Rehgar -->> In-n-Out Burger Rehgar
Instead, they just put him to 11 and now they are taking him back to like 6 or 7. That's perfectly fine for the actual balance of the game and he'll likely live on just swimmingly, but it's not the way I would've liked to see the situation handled from a design standpoint.
They didn't know he'd be bodying everyone! They're obviously not great w/ numbers.
But your playstyle complaints aren't playstyle complaints. You even admit that. It's like complaining in a month that Li-Ming isn't good at Sieging anymore because her Q range was shortened - this isn't a "playstyle" thing, this is a "character doing something dumb they shouldn't be able to do" thing.
But your playstyle complaints aren't playstyle complaints. You even admit that. It's like complaining in a month that Li-Ming isn't good at Sieging anymore because her Q range was shortened - this isn't a "playstyle" thing, this is a "character doing something dumb they shouldn't be able to do" thing.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
If they shorten Li Ming's range she's done if they don't buff her otherwise.
In the short term that's probably ok, if only to get data before making a buff.
jaundicejuice
Member
Even specialists should not be able to cheese structures and damage them out of order even though their muddy role is largely to deal siege damage.
But yes, Li-Ming is ridiculous, she can melt a tier 1 tower to less than half health before the first creep wave passes through the gate. Depending on who she is laning against or how the opposing team chooses to respond (or not) she can have that tower dead before the first creep wave is dead. How she made it live like that I don't even understand. Jaina and Kael'thas were always strong, varying degrees of overpowered, but at least KT at his most broken required levels to truly become a problem, Li-Ming simply is one from match start.
jaundicejuice
Member
And BD protection so you can't leapfrog damage structures.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Just make it so specialists do full damage to towers and everyone else doesn't
It preemptively stops any future characters from being ridiculous like Li MIng~
brickwalker0
Member
this is the real solution.
the others proposed are not easily communicated to a new player or someone who doesn't do research outside of the game.
I'm not against the idea, but it would make Nazeebo's role classification even funnier.
yea i'm down with that... if they like increased the health of buildings by like 25% and then gave all seige heroes like +25% damage to structures as baseline....
Xul is so much better in HL with standard comps.
I question the extent to which casual players care about the numbers under the hood. I imagine they stand at a structure and attack it until the health bar is low. If it takes longer or shorter because of a patch change it would likely be inconsequential to the majority of players in terms of how they'd behave in response to the patch change (other than limiting them from backdooring).
And now that I've typed that all out I'm not even sure casual players backdoor structures. If they somehow figured out the cheese characters and their specific tactics it's surely by accident, from playing with another person who did it, or possibly coming across a youtube expose of the cheese.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Zuna complained on Zoia's stream that he never gets invited so Zoia said they'd invite him if Mc doesn't have time or something.
Oh and if they are gonna talk about the whole trash talking thing, Zoia's gonna say 'talk shit get hit' at least half a dozen times.
I'm always amazed when people find reasons to flame while winning, even wearing a master skin gives them just more leverage to complain about,
Had my 100th game of Li Ming today, still a 62% winrate though I wish I could look at it per patch.
Oh and if they are gonna talk about the whole trash talking thing, Zoia's gonna say 'talk shit get hit' at least half a dozen times.
I'm always amazed when people find reasons to flame while winning, even wearing a master skin gives them just more leverage to complain about,
guilty of that myself
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