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[Suikoguy]

Absolutely vanishes as we approach the midterms. Worst case scenario, they stick around and we finally have turnout at midterms but I doubt it.

That would probably be a net positive, assuming they would be willing to work with Democrats and or be Democrats. Oddly enough the two conversations i'm having on this forum have converged.

Electing more liberal candidates could very well be a good thing, as it moves the compromise position. Whether that compromise position would actually work though is another matter. For example; most Republicans say no minimum wage, a small group would say $10, A good chunk of Democrats say 12 and a smaller group says 15. Depending on the ratios, 12 should pass.

But if you get a group of 'Berniecrat' candidates that are unwilling to accept $12 an hour, then we end up in a similar situation as the Republicans and the tea party.

There's a certain point where pragmatism and spinelessness meet, and in the eyes of the "Tea Paarty of the left," that time happened a few years ago. In another thread, I talked about how Dems backtracked from Obama's positionsinstead of standing with them, and how Dems seem to just be afraid of their own success. Now the Progressive Wing smells blood, and they've been galvanized by big ticket successes and mounting opposition from a similarly galvanized right. We can still be pragmatic without throwing what we stand for under the bus. I would like a Democrat, please, not a socially liberal Republican. The whole strategy needs to be changed, and it CAN be without compromising what makes Third Way the Third Way.

Yeah, I kinda see your argument a bit better now. I'm glad you decided to join us a bit.


You HillaryGaffers better be nice, it's rare for us to have a reasonable Sanders supporter on here.
Though we do have a few.

 

[ivysaur12]

Zephyr Rain Teachout sounds like the name of a YA dystopian protagonist.

 

[sdijoseph]

Does anyone here have an opinion on McGinty vs. Sestak for the PA Senate race? I have tried researching it, but they don't seem to differ all that much on any key issues. My main concern is just elect-ability vs. Toomey, and while McGinty has support from Obama and Ed Rendell, Toomey almost won in a very GOP-friendly year.

 

[Suikoguy]

Does anyone here have an opinion on McGinty vs. Sestak for the PA Senate race? I have tried researching it, but they don't seem to differ all that much on any key issues. My main concern is just elect-ability vs. Toomey, and while McGinty has support from Obama and Ed Rendell, Toomey almost won in a very GOP-friendly year.

lol, that's the biggest mess of a primary race at the moment, so much so that Ivysaur12 could not even make a recommendation. I don't know what to tell ya.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1206496

I'm out for the night, though I may be back occasionally, battling a fun cold that has overwhelming post nasal drip making sleep fun.

 

[Holmes]

To think that Sanders was having a good news cycle for once in the morning and it all went to shit after the EMILY list and Democratic whore debacles.

 

[hawk2025]

What the fuck, this can't be real.


http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/13/politics/congress-flint-michigan-water-funding/index.html


Tell me this isn't real.

Bipartisan Senate leaders reached an agreement Wednesday on a long-stalled energy modernization bill that some had hoped would includ money to address the drinking water crisis in Flint, Michigan.

But because the Flint provision is still the subject of a hold by Utah Republican Sen. Mike Lee -- who objects to the way it is funded -- the energy bill will now move on without it.

This is cartoon villain levels of shittery.

 

[B-Dubs]

What the fuck, this can't be real.


http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/13/politics/congress-flint-michigan-water-funding/index.html


Tell me this isn't real.




This is cartoon villain levels of shittery.

I knew it would be that moron before I even got to that part of the article.

 

[ivysaur12]

What the fuck, this can't be real.


http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/13/politics/congress-flint-michigan-water-funding/index.html


Tell me this isn't real.




This is cartoon villain levels of shittery.

Let's put him on the SCOTUS!

 

[Abinash117]

True, it could poof with the convention. It's hard to say if it's going to be a long term 'group' so to speak. But many of the parallels are there (sans outside funding), and they are increasing weekly. So many of us pragmatists are getting concerned; if you can see where we are coming from.

The only parallels I see is that they don't necessary like the "establishment" and are very passionate, and loud( on the internet) . Again these people have been here for awhile and really don't participate in politics and aren't a coherent group of people, but different people with similar ideologies; there is no Left Tea Party. Who are these "pragmatists" ? Everyone is one when they need to be Bernie Sanders will have to be one and will be one if he goes into office; if he ever is effective which I doubt remains the question. There is no #TeamPragmatists unless some people really tries to make it one.

Lets just leave it Queen vs commie.

 

[Suikoguy]

To think that Sanders was having a good news cycle for once in the morning and it all went to shit after the EMILY list and Democratic whore debacles.

I can't help but wonder if he would actually be in the race if he had competent campaign staff and concrete policy outlines.

The continued supposition of him not planning to be in the race this long makes some sense considering everything that has transpired, but I find that difficult to believe that you would thrust yourself into the public eye to this degree without planning to give it a real shot.

Maybe the postmortem will give us some insight into who was pushing some of these late ideas.

Whipping the far left into a tea party like frenzy is dangerous, continuing to push for his ideals is not.

The only parallels I see is that they don't necessary like the "establishment" and are very passionate, and loud( on the internet) . Again these people have been here for awhile and really don't participate in politics and aren't a coherent group of people, but different people with similar ideologies; there is no Left Tea Party. Who are these "pragmatists" ? Everyone is one when they need to be Bernie Sanders will have to be one and will be one if he goes into office; if he ever is effective which I doubt remains the question. There is no #TeamPragmatists unless some people really tries to make it one.

Lets just leave it Queen vs commie.

Distrust of the media, denial or ignoring the facts of a situation are the other parallels. But like previously discussed it could just poof after the convention and it's tough to gauge the size of the group at the moment.

 

[neurosisxeno]

I can't help but wonder if he would actually be in the race if he had competent campaign staff and concrete policy outlines.

I am a pretty passionate Bernie supporter, and even I've lost a lot of enthusiasm for him because of how poorly his campaign is being run (simultaneously being ran great and terribly, it's like a really pretty dumpster fire). It's like he pulled his entire strategy for Southern States out of "How to campaign for minority votes for dummies". It was the most heavy-handed and half-assed attempt I could have imagined seeing without just not trying, or bringing out a host of Black people on stage and saying simply, "but look, I have black friends!" That lead to him punting the South with really cost him--the 80-20 and 70-30 margins there basically made it so he had to sweep the rest of the country.

While Economic Policy is his golden goose, waiting until you're 4 debates deep to even get foreign policy advisers was a massive embarrassment. Combine that with a severe inability to approach any issue without tying it to economics and it's easy to see why he's so highly trusted but not so highly voted for.

 

[Abinash117]

I can't help but wonder if he would actually be in the race if he had competent campaign staff and concrete policy outlines.

The continued supposition of him not planning to be in the race this long makes some sense considering everything that has transpired, but I find that difficult to believe that you would thrust yourself into the public eye to this degree without planning to give it a real shot.

Maybe the postmortem will give us some insight into who was pushing some of these late ideas.

Whipping the far left into a tea party like frenzy is dangerous, continuing to push for his ideals is not.




Distrust of the media, denial or ignoring the facts of a situation are the other parallels. But like previously discussed it could just poof after the convention and it's tough to gauge the size of the group at the moment.

I dare say that isn't remotely unique to those two groups.

 

[Wilsongt]

I knew it would be that moron before I even got to that part of the article.

Only a choice few morons could continue to put the lives of children in danger because they're not affluent and white.

 

[Abstrusity]

The only parallels I see is that they don't necessary like the "establishment" and are very passionate, and loud( on the internet) . Again these people have been here for awhile and really don't participate in politics and aren't a coherent group of people, but different people with similar ideologies; there is no Left Tea Party. Who are these "pragmatists" ? Everyone is one when they need to be Bernie Sanders will have to be one and will be one if he goes into office; if he ever is effective which I doubt remains the question. There is no #TeamPragmatists unless some people really tries to make it one.

Lets just leave it Queen vs commie.

Well, consider what gave rise to the Tea Party. Lip service to extreme right, while playing up the fear mongering, but also not doing anything about it because what they were fer mongering about wasn't the real problem!

Now we have lip service to the progressive wing, while playing up actual fears, but also being unwilling to do anything about it because they insist on compromising with the fleshy equivalent of a brick wall.

It doesn't matter whether or not the fears are real, all that matters is that the fears are addressed. To the uninitiated, it was big banks and greed that caused the crash of 2007. It makes a nice talking point. So, uh, we have Dodd-Frank, but we also don't have many in prison for defrauding citizens out of billions of dollars. From there, it's easy to spread those cracks into fear mongering, especially with how youth are...well, chronically underemployed, for garbage wages, with high student loan debt, while society pressures them to change.

It's literally a tea party situation. The only thing missing is a cash infusion from a pair of far left sycophants who believe lack of taxation is theft, if we want to go full opposites here.

The point is, real concerns or not, how the party addresses them, if they address them, is key. The most infuriating thing about it is that the concerns have been addressed in a very big way, Dems have just distanced themselves from it in an attempt to seem moderate over the last 6 years, with disastrous results.

 

[Prodigal Son]

Bernie Sanders Wins TIME 100 Reader Poll

With thrice the number of votes Clinton received.

 

[Wilsongt]

Bernie Sanders Wins TIME 100 Reader Poll

With thrice the number of votes Clinton received.

Well... That's not surprising in the least. It's like someone spamming polls over at GameFAQs or something.

 

[hawk2025]

Bernie Sanders Wins TIME 100 Reader Poll

With thrice the number of votes Clinton received.

Hey, he won an election!

 

[alternade]

Bernie Sanders Wins TIME 100 Reader Poll

With thrice the number of votes Clinton received.

I'm not surprised.

 

[StopMakingSense]

Bernie Sanders Wins TIME 100 Reader Poll

With thrice the number of votes Clinton received.

But unfairly they tie in delegates received.

 

[aspiegamer]

Well... That's not surprising in the least. It's like someone spamming polls over at GameFAQs or something.

L Block was robbed.

More important question-- Did this meet Tyler's prediction? Since it doesn't work for any sort of scientific statistical analysis perhaps it paradoxically does for non-scientific surveys.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Bernie Sanders Wins TIME 100 Reader Poll

With thrice the number of votes Clinton received.

So?

NHL fans voted John Scott in to the All Star game, does that make him a superstar?

 

[Holmes]

So we know Sanders supporters would rather vote on the TIME website whereas Clinton supporters would rather vote in the voting booth.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Maybe they're not endorsing her again because of how badly she seems to have lost the 2014 Lt Gubernatorial race. Sad!

Kihuen is pretty hot. FUCK.

 

[Prodigal Son]

So?

NHL fans voted John Scott in to the All Star game, does that make him a superstar?

Is any vaguely pro-Sanders post here going to be met with with weird defensiveness?

I didn't say it meant anything. I just posted a fucking link.

 

[RastaMentality]

It really sucks I have to basically concede to people that Bernie's policies would most likely be a failure when I believe so much in the concepts. It makes people end up resenting a lot of progressive policy that could be better implemented in general.

Like yes, his free college plan would most likely never happen in America but free college is definitely something I believe should happen.

 

[shinra-bansho]

free college is definitely something I believe should happen.

Bugbear. Why? To what level? Means tested?

Why not free trade schools instead? Or early childhood education? Why not just more affordable college? Why not use that money to encourage entrepreneurial activity?

 

[neurosisxeno]

Bugbear. Why? To what level? Means tested?

Why not free trade schools instead? Or early childhood education? Why not just more affordable college? Why not use that money to encourage entrepreneurial activity?

We should have heavy investment in trade schools as well. The past 50 years has seen a decline in those fields because people for some reason looked down on Plumbers and Electricians despite them serving vital roles. Early childhood education is a surprisingly hard sell for a lot of people. People like the idea, but they also don't like throwing their kids into the education system even earlier than they already do. The idea of "Free College" is to make it more affordable. It's basically taking the concept of Universal Healthcare and applying it to higher education.

As for encouraging entrepreneurial activity, you know as well as I do that will be the federal program with the single most instances of fraud in a single calendar year.

 

[RastaMentality]

Bugbear. Why? To what level? Means tested?

Why not free trade schools instead? Or early childhood education? Why not just more affordable college? Why not use that money to encourage entrepreneurial activity?

I should've used a different example because I don't feel that strongly about free college since I haven't seen a probable implementation of it yet. I basically used it as a quick placeholder. I'd probably put UHC there instead.

But, everything you're saying is probably a much better long term investment (especially universal pre-k). It'd also probably be an easier sell if our colleges did have a tuition cap of around 8-10k instead of outright free college where states pick up the tab.

People like the idea, but they also don't like throwing their kids into the education system even earlier than they already do.

They'd probably point to Finland where school starts even later than us too. It's a complicated issue where I'd have to see studies to compare.

 

[Tesseract]

how can our k-12 be free if our government isn't free

where's the monopoly guy

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

I posted in another thread today that there's too many people in college already that have no idea why they're even there.

 

[shinra-bansho]

We should have heavy investment in trade schools as well. The past 50 years has seen a decline in those fields because people for some reason looked down on Plumbers and Electricians despite them serving vital roles. Early childhood education is a surprisingly hard sell for a lot of people. People like the idea, but they also don't like throwing their kids into the education system even earlier than they already do. The idea of "Free College" is to make it more affordable. It's basically taking the concept of Universal Healthcare and applying it to higher education.

As for encouraging entrepreneurial activity, you know as well as I do that will be the federal program with the single most instances of fraud in a single calendar year.

I think we're thinking of different things in terms of encouraging entrepreneurial activity. I'm not sure what you'd be referring to in terms of fraud.

Free college is free. I'm talking about affordability through regulation of tuition.

ECE is frankly a much better investment than paying for some hapless kid's 8 year failure at a liberal arts degree. Children benefit from it long-term. Mothers have the option of returning to the workforce more easily.

 

[neurosisxeno]

I think we're thinking of different things in terms of encouraging entrepreneurial activity. I'm not sure what you'd be referring to in terms of fraud.

Well invariably you're referring to programs that help fund startups and get small business going--at least that's how I interpreted it. But it's never been easier for ideas/businesses to get funding than currently, look at the rise of Crowd Funding. If the Government got involved inevitably people would use it to try and get money from the Government for fake businesses and then relocate or vanish and funnel it through offshore accounts.

ECE is frankly a much better investment than paying for some hapless kid's 8 year failure at a liberal arts degree. Children benefit from it long-term. Mothers have the option of returning to the workforce more easily.

As someone said above, certain countries perform better while starting later than we do in this country, so when we start educating kids isn't necessarily the issue. There are a lot of people who don't go to school out of high school or can't afford to go back later in life (myself included until recently--I should be starting back this summer or fall) who would be greatly benefited by free/heavily subsidized higher education. Once upon a time, you could get a job, and eventually the company you worked for would consider you valuable enough to foot the bill and send you to college to continue being a valuable asset to them (huge in the 80's and 90's), but now they'd rather just hire someone who paid for it themselves than invest in their workforce.

More mothers entering the workforce would probably not be a super helpful thing considering it would put more stress on a dwindling job market (assuming these mothers are returning to part time jobs with more flexible schedules). Higher education is needed to fill more demanding roles that aren't being phased out of existence or sent overseas.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

To think that Sanders was having a good news cycle for once in the morning and it all went to shit after the EMILY list and Democratic whore debacles.

Wait, what happened?

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

I think you could make a case for subsidizing certain degrees (STEM, social work, medicine), contingent on good grades and good behavior, but that would never go through because of the political shitstorm it would create. Free college is a pipe dream that will (and maybe should) never happen.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

It really sucks I have to basically concede to people that Bernie's policies would most likely be a failure when I believe so much in the concepts. It makes people end up resenting a lot of progressive policy that could be better implemented in general.

Like yes, his free college plan would most likely never happen in America but free college is definitely something I believe should happen.

Universal Healthcare should be implemented before we even think about free college.

 

[shinra-bansho]

I'm thinking more infrastructure that would facilitate startup development.
And probably granting programs for startups and SMEs, but in set accelerator programs not just ad hoc.
Translational research funding. Commercialisation of intellectual property.
Industry-University public private granting programs for collaborative work that will lead to industry outcomes and public good.

Wrt ECE, I feel like we're talking across each other again. Starting school and access to ECE aren't the same thing. Also the quality of ECE matters.

Also, workforce participation is expected to slide overall. From memory the increase in female workforce participation has been a major correlate of GDP growth.

 

[eBay Huckster]

Hey, he won an election!

more accurately:

hey, bernie sanders won an internet poll

 

[Y2Kev]

The DNC rigged it for Hillary with those superdelegates.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/04/bernie-sanders-supporters-democrats-221842

so no one is going to comment on the "CNN Smells like farts" sign

 

[Tesseract]

so no one is going to comment on the "CNN Smells like farts" sign

just like my earthbound scratch and sniff strategy guide

 

[i_am_ben]

Neither University or Vocational Education should be entirely free.

To be honest, if students aren't responsible for at least some portion of their course upfront then they'll enroll in all sorts of useless degrees.

Plus, unless you restrict the number of providers/courses then basically universities/colleges will just enroll everyone they can.

 

[User 463088]

I'm sorry, but that "Democratic Whores" thing is disgusting.

Bernie's people need to freaking apologize for that like stat.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Sanders' people aren't going to apologize for some rando misogyny.

 

[User 463088]

I mean, I personally have never minded being a bit ho'ish, but it's still not a good look.

 

[Tesseract]

if bernie wins new york, can y2kev take all of poligaf to disneyland

 

[FloydtheFathead]

A) Someone else bolded it, alas.
B) Ohio St at Wisconsin will be fuuuuuuuuuun this year. As long as the SEC doesn't win, I'm OK.
C) I will cut you in RL. (ND gave her a full ride)

You are correct on the second.. If we survive the trip to Norman.. The only game that should be an issue is that and Michigan.

And you can try..

And is she one of those fans that thinks Rudy is a hero?

It's a travesty that Joel Stave didn't win the Heisman.

Know in your heart that he will always be better than Mitch Leidner.

Remember that.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Does anyone here have an opinion on McGinty vs. Sestak for the PA Senate race? I have tried researching it, but they don't seem to differ all that much on any key issues. My main concern is just elect-ability vs. Toomey, and while McGinty has support from Obama and Ed Rendell, Toomey almost won in a very GOP-friendly year.

I am not the only one who thinks "sleestak" every time Sestak comes up, am I?

 

[balladofwindfishes]

I think there's great concern when we're facing the rise of Tea Party Left and what it means going forward for those of us who still value pragmatism in politics.

I doubt this is the Tea Party Left

- First and foremost, the Tea Party got results and proved they were a large enough block of voters that you have to listen to them. Bernie is 200+ delegates down and the gap will likely widen before he drops out. His voters are unreliable, and thus, not really going to command attention

- The Tea Party had the support of the GOP. It was a creation of the GOP to bring down Obama via racism and fear. It ended up spiraling out of control, but for awhile, the GOP fully backed the Tea Party.

- The Tea Party had a bunch of innate human biases that it played off of. Racism. Fear of the Government. Religion. They leveraged those deep rooted human biases to launch of political platform.

- Their platform was convenient for corporations to adopt because while the people argued bitterly about small government and minorities and religion, corporations could grab that furor and run with it, allowing their own agenda to be passed as long as it rode on the crazy train.

- They had major donors and lots of money. They had role models who fully supported them, like Sarah Palin. Bernie likely won't support a radical third party uprising, so they'll need to find new leaders.

- They had an entire "news" propaganda machine to push out their message. The media isn't going to give that sort of attention to far left policies.

- They made it to the general election. Hate to say it, but once the primaries are over, Bernie won't be mentioned at all for a year or two, if ever, because 100% of the focus will be on the general. The Tea Party was the focus in the general, because they were connected with Palin.

I'm sorry, but that "Democratic Whores" thing is disgusting.

Bernie's people need to freaking apologize for that like stat.

The current defense tactic is that when they said "whores" they didn't mean it as sexism, so how dare you associate a derogatory sexist term with sexism, you sexist! Apparently using the term "corporate whore" against a woman candidate isn't sexist at all, because they didn't mean it to be sexist, and hey, they didn't even directly mention Hillary!

It's almost like a classic racist defense mechanism.

I touched a serious nerve on reddit by blasting Bernie for this. It's almost amazing to watch the twists and turns their brains make to try and justify how "whore" isn't at all sexist and Bernie is really the victim here.

 

[Diablos]

Does anyone here have an opinion on McGinty vs. Sestak for the PA Senate race? I have tried researching it, but they don't seem to differ all that much on any key issues. My main concern is just elect-ability vs. Toomey, and while McGinty has support from Obama and Ed Rendell, Toomey almost won in a very GOP-friendly year.

You mean Sestak almost won.

I like him better than McGinty but sadly the party is throwing their weight behind her for the most part. She'd still be a good Senator though.

 

[eBay Huckster]

CFP's Kyle Kondik and Geoffrey Skelley lay out the Democrats' path to a House majority (hint: it mostly involves Clinton having a 6+ point margin in November, and almost completely includes seats in states Obama won twice), and 14 seats get their ratings changed (all but one, VA-2, favors the Dems)

http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/house-2016-how-a-democratic-wave-could-happen/

 

[Y2Kev]

People need to post their tweet texts or I'm going to go postal