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PoliGAF 2016 |OT5| Archdemon Hillary Clinton vs. Lice Traffic Jam

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B

border

Member
Trump now blasting Cruz for not helping Carly after her stage dive.

"He just kept talking......even I would have helped her up!"
 
F

Fuchsdh

Member
snacknuts said:
GAF, as a voter in tomorrow's IN primary, I have SUPREME POWER in shaping the outcome of this race (or so the media would have me believe). How best to utilize my vote?

I want a dem in the White House, and I realize that Hillary is destined to get the nom. I like a lot of what Sanders has to say, and I like that he's helped to get Hilldawg talking about the issues he's been championing, but I don't like the way he's been handling his campaign for the past month or so.

On the GOP side, I mostly don't care who gets the nom (since I expect any of them to get wrecked come Nov), but I really, really don't want it to go to Cruz. Dude is human garbage.

Right now I am leaning toward voting for Bernie, but maybe I should vote for Trump to help make sure he gets things pretty much locked up? But I also sort of abhor the idea of engaging in this kind of political gamesmanship.
Click to expand...

Might as well vote for who you'd actually prefer. Primaries are the place to do it; leave the political gamesmanship for the general when it matters.
 
S

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
brainchild said:
You do not seem to understand any of the points I addressed, like this one



The Sanders campaign isn't complaining that the DNC is spending money on Hillary.





I agree. Money-laundering is a false allegation. 'An equivalent to money laundering' would be more appropriate.
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Ok, I see what you meant. But the underlying issue is still questionable. How is it equivalent to Money Laundering?

The process as I understand it:

Bundle Fundraising Occurs where individuals can donate the max to all candidates of a party currently running. That money in turn is transferred to the DNC who can coordinate the efforts of that money maximizing its efficiency.

The only way this would be considered laundering is Clinton is getting more than $5400 per person that donated. If so, the margin is critical, since money that goes to campaign ads and some other staff that may be considered beneficial to multiple candidates would supersede this.

My literal Bernie Brother for the first time actually said "it looks really terrible." for the Sanders campaign to be running this line at this point "because it is pretty much over at this point".

This is really crossing the line.
 
B

brainchild

Banned
Brawndo Addict said:
That's a contortion dependent on a limited mathematical definition. Yes 2+2 = 4 and that is equivalent to 6-2 = 4. The thing we're interested in though is not 2+2 or 6-2, it's the resulting value of four. Language operates on a larger scale and just about any layman's use of the word would implicitly invoke "having the same meaning/use", see Miriam Webster.

And even if we took your rather limited definition it still doesn't make sense. If she's doing something with the same value or effect of money laundering, then it should have the same effect as it no (it should add up to "four")? Please explain how her actions have transformed the proceeds of criminal conduct to mask their origin.

We may have equivalent value as human beings, but you wouldn't describe us as equivalent human beings because that's comparing two very different things. You would say our value is equivalent, not ourselves. Similarly, you would not describe Hillary's actions as being equivalent with the actions of money laundering. Perhaps motivation or intention, but not the actions themselves.
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I know I've had these types of epic semantical debates in the past, but I'm getting too old for this shit.

If you'd prefer 'exploitation' as opposed to 'equivalent of money laundering', I can roll with that as well.

We good now?



Suikoguy said:
Ok, I see what you meant. But the underlying issue is still questionable. How is it equivalent to Money Laundering?

The process as I understand it:

Bundle Fundraising Occurs where individuals can donate the max to all candidates of a party currently running. That money in turn is transferred to the DNC who can coordinate the efforts of that money maximizing its efficiency.

The only way this would be considered laundering is Clinton is getting more than $5400 per person that donated. If so, the margin is critical, since money that goes to campaign ads and some other staff that may be considered beneficial to multiple candidates would supersede this.

My literal Bernie Brother for the first time actually said "it looks really terrible." for the Sanders campaign to be running this line at this point "because it is pretty much over at this point".

This is really crossing the line.
Click to expand...

My response is the same for you.
 
M

Macho Madness

Member
CNN/ORC National

Hillary Clinton (D) 51% (0)
Bernie Sanders (D) 43% (-1)

Donald Trump (R) 49% (+2)
Ted Cruz (R) 25% (-6)
John Kasich (R) 19% (+2)
 
B

Brawndo Addict

Banned
brainchild said:
I know I've had these types of epic semantical debates in the past, but I'm getting too old for this shit.

If you'd prefer 'exploitation' as opposed to 'equivalent of money laundering', I can roll with that as well.

We good now?
Click to expand...

Just because you're in the wrong doesn't make it an inconsequential semantic difference. If I said your posts are equivalent to perjury I think you would rightfully say, that's ridiculously hyperbolic and obviously untrue as a comparison.

If I tried to say, "oh fine, I'll just say your posts are extremely pedantic, happy now?", I can't play that off like it's somehow the same thing and I haven't fundamentally changed the substance of my accusations.
 
O

Officerrob

Banned
The Sanders campaign sees Trump using their attacks against Hillary and then they go out with this money laundering bullshit, ridiculous. I shit on Hillary for staying in in 2008 (I'm an Obama guy), so I reserve the right to shit on Bernie for not getting the fuck out in 2016.
 
B

brainchild

Banned
Brawndo Addict said:
Just because you're in the wrong doesn't make it an inconsequential semantic difference. If I said your posts are equivalent to perjury I think you would rightfully say, that's ridiculously hyperbolic and obviously untrue .

If I tried to say, "oh fine, I'll just say your posts are extremely pedantic, happy now?", I can't play that off like it's somehow the same thing and I haven't fundamentally changed the substance of my accusations.
Click to expand...

OK.
 
O

Orbis Tabula

Member
Suikoguy said:
I want to know this too, as I thought the same thing.
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brainchild said:
The problem is that the money was transferred almost immediately to the DNC from the state parties, not that the DNC is spending the money. It's not like the state parties wouldn't want to keep that money to help the downticket, which is the whole point of the money going to them in the first place.

The other problem is that most of the money spent directly by the Hillary Victory Fund was used to the direct benefit of the Clinton campaign, either in online advertisements or campaign staffing.

These actions can be seen as exploitations of campaign finance laws and allows the Clinton campaign to circumvent campaign contribution limits.

Of course, all of this is perfectly legal, but it's a question of ethics more than anything else.
Click to expand...

Gah. Sorry for ignoring your responses. I got so distracted by the OT thread on the topic that I completely missed them. Thanks! :)
 
S

studyguy

Member
ivysaur12 said:
Yeah, her Huffpost average has been inching up while Bernie's has been inching down.
Click to expand...

Just the natural way of things as candidates get whittled down, same reason why the Bernie or Bust movement isn't anything to worry about in % when just as many if not more were gungho about NO OBAMA in 2008.

National polls during the primary get thrown out the door once everyone buckles in under actual candidates and entire parties realign.
 
B

BlastProcessing

Member
brainchild said:
I agree, but that doesn't change the fact that Bernie just isn't as capable as Hillary in this area. We can talk about why that's the case, but expecting him to do more than he can is absurd and ridiculous.
Click to expand...

I think it plays into the narratives about Sanders and Clinton. Sanders cares, but doesn't have the hard-earned capability to accomplish much.

I think it's fair to ask more from a politician than empathy and judge to them on what they the can (and historically have) realistically delivered.
 
J

Jack The Nipper

Banned
I would say trump has a good point when you are traveling to cities in china, hong kong etc

They do have some a ton of infrastructure , airports, tunnels train systems that all look nicer than a lot of stuff in america which looks old and rundown by comparison in many ways. it's a lot to do with how many people they have and how those people can work for less though. But, its sort of strange in a way

I'd say we focus more on our home living and that is more important to me so i'd take america over what china is doing overall

it is insane how many 30 to 40 floor buildings china has going up, in thousands and thousands of cities compared to what you don't see in america though. may see 10 to 60 in some of those cities and some are 2 hours outside of the main city.
 
R

Republic of Ezo

Member
Jack The Nipper said:
I would say trump has a good point when you are traveling to cities in china, hong kong etc

They do have some a ton of infrastructure , airports, tunnels train systems that all look nicer than a lot of stuff in america which looks old and rundown by comparison in many ways. it's a lot to do with how many people they have and how those people can work for less though. But, its sort of strange in a way

I'd say we focus more on our home living and that is more important to me so i'd take america over what china is doing overall

it is insane how many 30 to 40 floor buildings china has going up, in thousands and thousands of cities compared to what you don't see in america though. may see 10 to 60 in some of those cities and some are 2 hours outside of the main city.
Click to expand...

Having lived in HK, I can tell you that the reason their trains are so good is that the MTR corporation is rich and owns tons of land, including the two biggest skyscrapers in the city and a mall on top of almost every station.

In China, trains and skyscrapers are indeed built because of central planning, which is more about the form of government than about any trade deficit or foreign aid (or whatever the hell Trump is arguing). But they do come with a catch - in lots of Chinese subways you have to go through a metal detector to even go into the trains, which is no fun.
 
A

AntraxSuicide

Banned
Box of Kittens said:
The contested convention line is just silly. It's taking advantage of people not really understanding the process and really depends on technicalities. Yes, superdelegates can change their mind if they want to right up until the vote, but Hillary is going to go in with a huge lead in pledged delegates and the superdelegates aren't going to change their mind, so it won't be contested in any meaningful sense.
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Diablos said:
The problem is that by doing this he's really hurting the party. Democrars are supposed to look competent by not being the ones to have a contested convention this year.

Watch the GOP fall in line and Democrats be the ones left with the convention chaos. If I'm a GOP strategist right now l would be very hopeful that I could get my convention to go smoothly.

Bernie is guaranteeing a contested convention.
Click to expand...

Box of Kittens said:
But if he doesn't have the support of enough delegates (he doesn't) then Hillary still wins on the first ballot and it's not a contested convention in any meaningful sense.
Click to expand...

Bingo. He keeps saying "contested convention" when the reality is that there will be over a month after the DC primary of news coverage hammering the guy on "why haven't you released your delegates? Why are you still here?" His answers to those questions right now are terrible, and that's with his path to the nomination not technically over. After DC? He'll look like Ted Cruz squirming in front of Hannity about stealing the election from Trump. His platform for 5 weeks would have to be "I know the people didn't vote for me, and I didn't help any Dems for most of my campaign, and I ignored large segments of the Democratic party base, and I insulted a lot of the organizations that defend Democratic causes. But I should still win!"

Yeah, that'll go over well. The more likely situation is that it's a quick first ballot, then the Convention moves on and Bernie (probably) scrams back to VT instead of engaging with the groups that he didn't bother engaging with before.

ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
The genie isn't going back in the bottle. They're never going to be able to power Ben Sasse through the primary when some asshole like Duncan Hunter will probably run on the "take benefits away from black people and give them to white people" platform. People know that open and loud bigotry can win them a primary and they'll exploit that now.
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The GOP had already gotten a bit out of hand with the conmen running like Huckabee, but this election, they really screwed the pooch. Now it's clear to every right-wing nationalist in the country that if you go in like Trump, you'll clean up nicely. It's not like these people had bridges to burn. Trump isn't a Republican, he's just running for their ticket, and he'll make millions off of these supporters for years to come. He's Huckabee, except he correctly identified that most of that base doesn't read
(okay, this is a cheap shot)
, so instead of selling them books, he'll do TV spots.

How does the GOP in 2020 avoid their debate stage turning into a literal scam, with nothing but hustlers making a fast buck up there? Like, what's the rule you put in place to avoid this?

ivysaur12 said:
Actually, I'd say it was pretty critical because it was right before NH and set a really important narrative about how he's a paper-thin candidate.
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Yeah, good ol' Christie strapping on the IED vest and blowing up Rubio's campaign, only to drop out right afterwards. I will always believe that was insanely calculated (don't know if Trump was in on it, or if Christie thought it was a good offering to the Don for a VP spot). Either way, it's my main reason for guessing that Christie gets the VP nod. Rubio was a big threat on the surface, but Trump already bullied Jeb so much that he didn't want to go in on Rubio without some intel on what attacks to use. Christie took that task on, and Trump got to hammer Rubio with more justified attacks instead of flailing around with insults.
 
B

Basileus777

Member
ivysaur12 said:
Actually, I'd say it was pretty critical because it was right before NH and set a really important narrative about how he's a paper-thin candidate.
Click to expand...

It was important, but his numbers recovered and the debate only hurt him in one state. And that's the only debate performance that had any impact on the race.
 
I

ivysaur12

Banned
Fun fact I just learned: There are only two Senate seats in the country that have never been represented by a Republican or a Democrat.

Hawaii Class 3 (Schatz): Never represented by a Republican
Vermont Class 1 (Sanders): Never represented by a Democrat

WRITE YOUR HOT FIRE THINK PIECES NOW
 
I

ItWasMeantToBe19

Banned
Basileus777 said:
It was important, but his numbers recovered and the debate only hurt him in one state. And that's the only debate performance that had any impact on the race.
Click to expand...

"New York Values" definitely mattered I think. Cruz wouldn't have gotten bodied as much in the Northeast if he didn't insult all the northeast. I think the New York Values debate was the only one that really mattered though as Rubio's standup routine and lack of appeal are what did him in.
 
A

AntraxSuicide

Banned
NYCmetsfan said:
Mr. Bernie got those $27 dollar high rollers though
Click to expand...

Not anymore, apparently. His April donations were like half of March's. Either his people are maxed out and they aren't bringing in new people, or the people who gave and aren't maxed out won't give anymore.

Either way, that's a big blow to him since his results are coming on the back of outspending Hillary in most contests. With that April haul, he'll have a harder time outspending her in some places, especially CA.
 
S

shinra-bansho

Member
It's a fund for the general election downticket, tied to her primary fundraising. That's why it's called a Victory Fund.
$2700/$5000 from individuals or bundled PACs can go to Hillary's primary campaign. That's the extent of what she'll receive directly.
The next $33,400/$15,000 goes to the DNC.
And then any additional amounts are split between state parties.

It's not being spent because it's for the GE.
If Bernie Sanders had somehow won, it would be used for him in the GE.

This is so stupid.
hawk2025 said:
Good Economist article on trade costs:

http://www.economist.com/news/unite...ly-trade-its-costs-have-been-amplified-policy

Well researched article on mitigating the sectors negatively impacted by trade.
Click to expand...
I think I posted this a while back.
 
B

Box of Kittens

Banned
ivysaur12 said:
Fun fact I just learned: There are only two Senate seats in the country that have never been represented by a Republican or a Democratic.

Hawaii Class 3 (Schatz): Never represented by a Republican
Vermont Class 1 (Sanders): Never represented by a Democrat

WRITE YOUR HOT FIRE THINK PIECES NOW
Click to expand...

It's surprising given the current political landscape, but Vermont used to be super Republican. Before Bill Clinton I believe the only Democrat to ever win Vermont was LBJ in 1964. Even Alf Landon won Vermont in 1936 (the only other state he won was Maine).
 
I

ivysaur12

Banned
Box of Kittens said:
It's surprising given the current political landscape, but Vermont used to be super Republican. Before Bill Clinton I believe the only Democrat to ever win Vermont was LBJ in 1964. Even Alf Landon won Vermont in 1936 (the only other state he won was Maine).
Click to expand...

Yes, LBJ. That was it.
 
V

Voysa Reezun

Banned
That Cruz video where he talks to the Trump supporters is painful to watch. He's a bad guy, but having talked to Tea Party, low info, no critical thought types like this before, I feel for him.

Well, as much as one can feel for a hateful bastard like Ted Cruz.
 
J

Jack The Nipper

Banned
Republic of Ezo said:
Having lived in HK, I can tell you that the reason their trains are so good is that the MTR corporation is rich and owns tons of land, including the two biggest skyscrapers in the city and a mall on top of almost every station.

In China, trains and skyscrapers are indeed built because of central planning, which is more about the form of government than about any trade deficit or foreign aid (or whatever the hell Trump is arguing). But they do come with a catch - in lots of Chinese subways you have to go through a metal detector to even go into the trains, which is no fun.
Click to expand...

I see nothing wrong with a metal detector and is a bit of a strange negative? sounds good to me with guys going on trains with guns anyways.

Also, I dont take a lot of stuff with me so a lot of the trains I get are on no stops or no scans for me.

The difference is the salary and costs as well though. Also china is a mess with the pollution and number of people anyways.
 
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