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PoliGAF 2016 |OT5| Archdemon Hillary Clinton vs. Lice Traffic Jam

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H

Holmes

Member
Man, Clinton got roasted in West Virginia today. Kudos for trying but that state is lost to Democrats for a long time now, if not ever.
 
G

Goodstyle

Member
Hillary is seriously embarrassing herself in WV. Why is she even there? We all saw the footage of her straight up saying she wants to put coal out of business, when she's over there saying otherwise everyone can see that she's lying through her teeth. Not understanding the thought process behind such a strategy.
 
A

Armaros

Member
Kristoffer said:
Ask Ted. But in all seriousness, he didn't say that. He said it distorts the political reality of a primary. And he's right, it does.
Click to expand...

So does Iowa and NH going first. Unless you think 95%+ white states is the baseline for the Democratic party.

Then there is
“Secretary Clinton cleaned our clock in the Deep South. No question about it. We got murdered there. That is the most conservative part of this great country. That’s the fact. But you know what? We’re out of the Deep South now. And we’re moving up.”
Click to expand...
 
A

AntraxSuicide

Banned
Goodstyle said:
Hillary is seriously embarrassing herself in WV. Why is she even there? We all saw the footage of her straight up saying she wants to put coal out of business, when she's over there saying otherwise everyone can see that she's lying through her teeth. Not understanding the thought process behind such a strategy.
Click to expand...

Her full quote is that when the left puts coal out of business (which any left-wing candidate will try to do), you have to have plans in place to get those people new jobs in a timely fashion. People on the left have bad answers in general on these things.

"Break up the banks!" Okay, what about people that work for banks?
"Shut down fossil fuels!" Okay, what about people that work for fuel companies?
Etc...

You can't just be like, "Fuck you, get a new job." Hillary's answer is better than any I've seen, but it's a long way from actually making those people feel comfortable.
 
S

Spoiled Milk

Banned
Goodstyle said:
Hillary is seriously embarrassing herself in WV. Why is she even there? We all saw the footage of her straight up saying she wants to put coal out of business, when she's over there saying otherwise everyone can see that she's lying through her teeth. Not understanding the thought process behind such a strategy.
Click to expand...
Oh, you mean this footage?
https://youtu.be/ksIXqxpQNt0

I'm the only candidate which has a policy about how to bring economic opportunity - using clean renewable energy as the key - into coal country. Because we are going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business; right, Tim? And we're going to make it clear we don't want to forget those people. Those people labored in those mines for generations, losing their health, often losing their lives, to turn on our lights and power our factories. Now we've gotta move away from coal, and all the other fossil fuels. But I don't want to move away from the people who did the best they could to provide the energy we relied on.
Click to expand...
She didn't once say she wants to put coal companies out of business. She just said it's going to happen - and in later elaborations, she mentioned that's because of both fracking and increased regulations - and that we need to do something for the people who it's going to affect, e.g. bring the clean energy jobs to those areas.

And that's why she was in West Virginia. To reach out to West Virginians. Because, as with everything about Hillary, she cares.

Armaros said:
So does Iowa and NH going first. Unless you think 95%+ white states is the baseline for the Democratic party.

Then there is
Click to expand...
Two states going first is not the same as the entire delegate rich deep south. Nothing Bernie said was wrong. He's implying Hillary appeals to voters who live in the south (true) but that moving up north would tap into different demographics. And he's right. If the Bernie hypothesis was right, liberal voters in the North and the western seaboard as well as more rural Americans would flock to Sanders, and so the politica reality would look different.

Of course, he was wrong, and he lost big time in New England. But that doesn't mean what he said was incorrect at the time. He never once said the South doesn't matter.

But his proxies came close, and his supporters outright said it.
 
S

SolicitorPirate

Member
AntraxSuicide said:
Her full quote is that when the left puts coal out of business (which any left-wing candidate will try to do), you have to have plans in place to get those people new jobs in a timely fashion. People on the left have bad answers in general on these things.

"Break up the banks!" Okay, what about people that work for banks?
"Shut down fossil fuels!" Okay, what about people that work for fuel companies?
Etc...

You can't just be like, "Fuck you, get a new job." Hillary's answer is better than any I've seen, but it's a long way from actually making those people feel comfortable.
Click to expand...

This has been a consistent problem with the American Left. Big industries are often perceived solely as the CEOs and high level executives at the top while completely ignoring the far greater sum of people working at low and middle levels, earning far more modest pay checks.
 
A

Armaros

Member
So the end result disproved his argument but it was the right argument because of...

What? Momentum?

Or what about his campaign's claim that they didn't even try in the south and thus that is the reason why Hillary won so much? And yet outspend her greatly in the south.

And his argument supposes that southern democrats aren't liberal, which is far from the truth.
 
S

Spoiled Milk

Banned
Armaros said:
So the end result disproved his argument but it was the right argument because of...

What? Momentum?
Click to expand...
The end result disproved his hypothesis that he would win big in New Englad but he was not incorrect in saying that the South was different, and ultimately the least friendly to him, out of every other region.
 
A

Armaros

Member
Kristoffer said:
The end result disproved his hypothesis that he would win big in New Englad but he was not incorrect in saying that the South was different, and ultimately the least friendly to him, out of every other region.
Click to expand...

Hillary did badly in various parts of the country and yet didn't feel the need to make similar excuses about reality distortions, the extend of their liberalism, how they didnt even try in those areas.

At the very least, his statements are incredibly tone deaf and show a lack of understanding of what makes up the Democratic party.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Even Bill Kristol softening tone on trump now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rma_2Q_hcFs

There's probably no better sign to say that Republicans are getting ready to coalesce around Trump. Almost time to start linking everyone in the republican party to Donald Trump's favorables.
 
I

ivysaur12

Banned
I totally understand the uncertainty and anxiety people in coal-related jobs would have about the Democratic platform. The so-called War on Coal has been one of the most salient regional voting issues for Republicans in recent memory, with good reason. But I also think Hillary is right that we need to heavily invest in areas as we transition out of coal as an energy source. Part of the problem is that Appalachia isn't really a hot bed for an educated work force, so a lot of the problems within Appalachia require a substantial and targeted investment.

Though I guess we've been trying that for decades with the War on Poverty.
 
G

Goodstyle

Member
AntraxSuicide said:
Her full quote is that when the left puts coal out of business (which any left-wing candidate will try to do), you have to have plans in place to get those people new jobs in a timely fashion. People on the left have bad answers in general on these things.

"Break up the banks!" Okay, what about people that work for banks?
"Shut down fossil fuels!" Okay, what about people that work for fuel companies?
Etc...

You can't just be like, "Fuck you, get a new job." Hillary's answer is better than any I've seen, but it's a long way from actually making those people feel comfortable.
Click to expand...

Kristoffer said:
Oh, you mean this footage?
https://youtu.be/ksIXqxpQNt0

She didn't once say she wants to put coal companies out of business. She just said it's going to happen - and in later elaborations, she mentioned that's because of both fracking and increased regulations - and that we need to do something for the people who it's going to affect, e.g. bring the clean energy jobs to those areas.

And that's why she was in West Virginia. To reach out to West Virginians. Because, as with everything about Hillary, she cares.

Two states going first is not the same as the entire delegate rich deep south. Nothing Bernie said was wrong. He's implying Hillary appeals to voters who live in the south (true) but that moving up north would tap into different demographics. And he's right. If the Bernie hypothesis was right, liberal voters in the North and the western seaboard as well as more rural Americans would flock to Sanders, and so the politica reality would look different.

Of course, he was wrong, and he lost big time in New England. But that doesn't mean what he said was incorrect at the time. He never once said the South doesn't matter.

But his proxies came close, and his supporters outright said it.
Click to expand...

Guys, I actually agree with Hillary on this issue, but the optics on this are terrible. She literally said "we are going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business" on camera. In the context, she means "we" as a society, but that's not how it'll look. When she goes to those WV citizens and says she doesn't want that, that's going to come off as a lie (and I think it is a lie too because she thinks coal is a shitty way to produce energy). Her biggest criticism is on her honesty and how she'll say anything to get a vote, what she's doing now isn't helping.

Voters do not care about nuance.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
NeoXChaos said:
is r/politics going to be cleaned up after he loses or are they going to become Bernieis45 ala hilarryis44 and switch to pro-trump for the fall?

The first 15 articles and Hillary is the subject of 10 of them ranging from the FBI to coal comments to that DNC Politico story.
Click to expand...

I'm not so much worried about Reddit Sanders fans switching to trump as I am about them losing interest and the extremely highly motivated reddit trump fans take full control of reddit.
 
K

KingK

Member
I went and protested at Trump's rally in my town in Indiana today. Nothing too crazy happened. Pretty diverse group of protesters and a ton of Bernie supporters. I wanted to go to Bernie's rally yesterday but I was at work while it was happening.

Macho Madness said:
Sean Astin will be in town tomorrow to GOTV for Hillary.
Click to expand...

I met him in 2008 when he was in South Bend for Obama. I guess his mom is from here.
 
I

ivysaur12

Banned
I do think investing heavily in Appalachia in terms of clean jobs isn't the worst idea, even if they're not the most ideal locations for solar or wind jobs and might not employs as many people. We have an entire region that, for better or worse, relied on one industry without diversifying and is going to be left behind once we transition from coal in the next few years. We can't just leave those people behind in our liberal castles on the coasts. Progressives and Democrats need to come up with a viable and long-term plan for the region in terms of economic revitalization. And I sort of put that on the left because we're the ones who are (rightfully) trying to transition our country away from coal.

Even if they don't vote Dem or never will, no one deserves to be left behind. I don't blame anyone for taking a job to put food on their table.
 
B

Bowdz

Member
ivysaur12 said:
I do think investing heavily in Appalachia in terms of clean jobs isn't the worst idea, even if they're not the most ideal locations for solar or wind jobs and might not employs as many people. We have an entire region that, for better or worse, relied on one industry without diversifying and is going to be left behind once we transition from coal in the next few years. We can't just leave those people behind in our liberal castles on the coasts. Progressives and Democrats need to come up with a viable and long-term plan for the region in terms of economic revitalization. And I sort of put that on the left because we're the ones who are (rightfully) trying to transition our country away from coal.

Even if they don't vote Dem or never will, no one deserves to be left behind. I don't blame anyone for taking a job to put food on their table.
Click to expand...

Hear hear.

Nobody gets left behind.
 
S

Spoiled Milk

Banned
Armaros said:
Hillary did badly in various parts of the country and yet didn't feel the need to make similar excuses about reality distortions, the extend of their liberalism, how they didnt even try in those areas.

At the very least, his statements are incredibly tone deaf and show a lack of understanding of what makes up the Democratic party.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that's true. All I was saying is that he didn't say "the South doesn't matter."

Armaros said:
Or what about his campaign's claim that they
didn't even try in the south and thus that is the reason why Hillary won so much? And yet outspend her greatly in the south.

And his argument supposes that southern democrats aren't liberal, which is far from the truth.
Click to expand...
I can't argue with that. Its tone deaf and ignorant. I think the best way to explain this is that Sanders has never been elected by more than 200k people who live in the homogeneous state of Vermont. He just....... Doesn't know. He has no idea how to do this. He really doesn't.

Goodstyle said:
Voters do not care about nuance.
Click to expand...
Yeah. :(
 
T

titiklabingapat

Member
Reading about Pete Wilson, it was amazing he was in power for so long. It's kinda fascinating to think that California was not the liberal bastion it is now.
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
A new batch of anti-Hillary-Clinton buttons popped up outside Donald Trump's rally tonight:
Click to expand...

ChfuTCPU8AEeuhs.jpg


WOW
 
T

Teggy

Member
I can picture the Andrea interview: "Bernie Sanders is saying that he is looking forward to a contested convention. How will that affect the investigation into your unsecured email server?"
 
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