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PoliGAF 2016 |OT5| Archdemon Hillary Clinton vs. Lice Traffic Jam

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A

AntraxSuicide

Banned
Oblivion said:
As dumb as this is, do you guys think it's actually a good thing for the media to play up the "tight race" thing? If people actually think there's a chance Hillary could lose, that could incentivize them to go out and vote instead of feeling complacent and staying home.
Click to expand...

I'm torn on it (though I believe I lean towards your point). The con of the media doing this is that it prevents Republican voters from accepting that they need to change. Right now, maps like that give them the idea that they aren't that far off of the majority, when the reality is that (as the site posted further up points out) the states that should be classified at least "Lean D" are worth enough EVs to win outright. I do think turnout would go down if that were constantly on the air, but the horse race means the GOP won't stop trying to win with their current philosophy.

Trump sucks, and can't win. But I do think the Dem bench is light, so 2024 scares me. No incumbency advantage, decades since the GOP was in the White House, green candidate on the left; it's a good chance that a Republican could pull it off, and I don't want them to still be running fascists at that time.
 
I

Iolo

Member
Oblivion said:
Wait, when we talk about a "Democratic Fox News", are we talking about a left leaning network that straight up lies and distorts stuff? Cause I don't think that's what Bernie meant.
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Well, each side thinks their preferred news sources are not lying or distorting things.

Plus MSNBC already exists as a left-leaning network. Is it not sympathetic enough to Democrats?
 
A

ampere

Member
There are already left-leaning shows on TV, I don't think there needs to be a network dedicated to it. I think the Fox News comparison is a really bad one, as Fox News literally tries to rile people up as a large part of its product

Prodigal Son said:
I've always thought PoliGAF posters specifically are over-critical of Bernie. It's become quite fun to read only because of how balls-to-the-wall bonkers it gets. I guess that's a primary for you. Ultimately, however, each poster here just cares about the country but has a different idea about how to better it. That's what's important in the end so it's cool.
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It can be an echo chamber at times, but there's nothing wrong with posting a different perspective if you do want to have a conversation. People very well may not agree with you, but that's OK as long as we all keep it civil and try to make the discussion about the topic

Obviously the importance of stopping Trump is the real issue right now so a lot of us just want to move on from the primaries and are sort of tired of Bernie at this point.
 
S

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
AntraxSuicide said:
Trump sucks, and can't win. But I do think the Dem bench is light, so 2024 scares me. No incumbency advantage, decades since the GOP was in the White House, green candidate on the left; it's a good chance that a Republican could pull it off, and I don't want them to still be running fascists at that time.
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I could see Tom Perez running for President. Which makes him a good choice for VP. 8 Years is a long time, and there could be even better options. If the GOP reforms after another loss in 2020 will be the question, they won't win with another Nationalist/Fascist type candidate, not in a multicultural country.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
Prodigal Son said:
Non-dry by post.

What is the problem with a left-leaning news network? Aside from being a bit redundant given how much of internet new media already leans left, I don't see how having a left-leaning bias innately warrants a comparison to Fox News.

Ultimately, I think the news should report facts. Facts aren't always politically neutral however.
Click to expand...

Basically, I think the problem with Fox News is kind of displayed by this election. Fox News has three major traits that cause problems for the GOP:

* They have no incentive to present facts that might challenge their viewers and make them change the channel. So lots of information that you and I might take for granted is just not shown to anybody who only watches Fox News. Taken to its extreme, this leads to the epistemic closure problem we see now, where lots of Republicans are genuinely convinced that Obamacare has hurt healthcare, reduced the number of Americans with coverage, etc., because the actual stats aren't visible on their chosen news source.
* Similarly to the above, they have a strong incentive to tell their viewers that all other news sources are deceptive, because it keeps them watching Fox (and it keeps them from worrying that Fox might be deceptive). So it leads not just to trusting Fox but distrusting all other information sources.
* Ultimately, they have no particular investment in any policy outcomes. Not even GOP policy outcomes! Fox generally does better when Democrats win than it does when Republicans win. So although they act as somewhat of a propaganda apparatus for the Republicans, when it comes to actually winning elections and getting their policies enacted, Fox is better off when the GOP fails. As it just did by nominating Donald Trump.

So basically when somebody says a "partisan news source" this is what I hear. I'm already worried about the development of epistemic closure -- to pick one example, it really concerns me to keep seeing RedState, Blaze, Washington Times, etc. articles posted by Sanders supporters*, because it suggests that they've failed to curate their own information feeds and have not identified that these are not just unreliable sources, but sources that hate their own cause! So I definitely don't want to see that continue to expand, because not only does it make us dumber and less data-focused, it actually makes it harder for us to win elections.


* And yes, the one time I saw it in PoliGAF from adam I did give him a licking.**
** Never mind.
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Suikoguy said:
I could see Tom Perez running for President. Which makes him a good choice for VP. 8 Years is a long time, and there could be even better options. If the GOP reforms after another loss in 2020 will be the question, they won't win with another Nationalist/Fascist type candidate, not in a multicultural country.
Click to expand...

Only reason Cuomo didn't run this time is Hillary did. The man isn't everyone's favorite Dem in here, but he's going to have one hell of a record by the time 2024 rolls around.
 
S

shem935

Banned
Suikoguy said:
I could see Tom Perez running for President. Which makes him a good choice for VP. 8 Years is a long time, and there could be even better options. If the GOP reforms after another loss in 2020 will be the question, they won't win with another Nationalist/Fascist type candidate, not in a multicultural country.
Click to expand...

I think Benji posted it earlier but the best person for the VP slot is some old veteran who wants a break and can be the hype man. The best thing for presidential hopefuls is to stay in the field as governors or senators, making connections and names for themselves.
 
P

Prodigal Son

Member
ciaossu said:
It can be an echo chamber at times, but there's nothing wrong with posting a different perspective if you do want to have a conversation. People very well may not agree with you, but that's OK as long as we all keep it civil and try to make the discussion about the topic

Obviously the importance of stopping Trump is the real issue right now so a lot of us just want to move on from the primaries and are sort of tired of Bernie at this point.
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Yeah, I understand that perspective.

For me, even with a 0% percent chance of a Sander's presidency, I still want to cheer the guy on and I still have very legitimate disagreements with Clinton on core-policy issues. I cheer Sanders on for the same reason someone would cheer Jill Stein on. They're not out-of-their-mind enough to expect victory. It's just a matter of supporting the person who most mirrors your own values, regardless of the circumstances.

=pigeon;202848507] Good post
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Yeah. I understand why a partisan news station is a bad idea regardless of what side it leans on.

You and B-dubs outlined the issue with it the concept very well.
 
S

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
ivysaur12 said:
God, why is Trump going after Graham? Who cares? How petty can he be?
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I don't get it either. Why make further enemies of him? He is still a Senator and won his last election easily.
 
S

Sibylus

Banned
So like... a network full of TYT and Bill Maher types?

I don't think filibustering your way to the end of your campaign is something you need to do, Bernie. Just let it come.
 
S

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Prodigal Son said:
Yeah, I understand that perspective.

For me, even with a 0% percent chance of a Sander's presidency, I still want to cheer the guy on and I still have very legitimate disagreements with Clinton on core-policy issues. I cheer Sanders on for the same reason someone would cheer Jill Stein on. They're not out-of-their-mind enough to expect victory. It's just a matter of supporting the person who most mirrors your own values, regardless of the circumstances.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately that's just not an option with the current system, if you have not already watch this well explained video on why First Past the Post election systems result in 2 parties.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo

You can support the candidate you like during the primary, but once the November comes around, FPTP makes it illogical to vote for anyone with no chance.
 
P

Prodigal Son

Member
ivysaur12 said:
God, why is Trump going after Graham? Who cares? How petty can he be?
Click to expand...

He's trying to hammer home his strong-man authoritarian crap. I guess his base probably eats that up. Graham isn't supporting him anytime soon anyway so 'why not'.

Suikoguy said:
Unfortunately that's just not an option with the current system, if you have not already watch this well explained video on why First Past the Post election systems result in 2 parties.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo

You can support the candidate you like during the primary, but once the November comes around, FPTP makes it illogical to vote for anyone with no chance.
Click to expand...

Like I said. No one (few) expects Jill (and similarly Bernie) to win. I don't think it's an illogical vote because it's more of a 'message' vote. We can argue about whether or not it actually sends a message or whether anybody gives a damn about the message, but in the mind of Jill voter, a vote for her means 'Not the two party system'. That intention isn't illogical in my opinion.

Suikoguy said:
Yeah, we won't see eye to eye on "Message Voting" but at least we are having a civil conversation :)
Click to expand...

I'm in a good mood tonight and for the foreseeable future. First haircut in years and I'm a new man.
 
S

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Yeah, we won't see eye to eye on "Message Voting" but at least we are having a civil conversation :)
 
M

Macho Madness

Member
Reince's "Trump wins" map:

Chz9exXUUAAgDAu.jpg:large
 
I

ItWasMeantToBe19

Banned
On paper, Scott Walker is literally the perfect candidate.

-Hates the poor enough to be loved by the donors and rich people.
-Absolutely hates brown people and black people.
-Genuinely religious

...And he dropped to 0% in the polls after the second debate because he's an actual empty suit. Sad!

Minnesota and Florida going red seems very plausible to me *laughs until crying*
 
S

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Macho Madness said:
Reince's "Trump wins" map:

Chz9exXUUAAgDAu.jpg:large
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's the "We got the anti-trade vote" map.

The only problem is, that would not include PA or FL.
Seniors would be most affected by new Tariffs, and PA is not flipping anyway.
 
U

User 463088

Banned
Macho Madness said:
Reince's "Trump wins" map:

Chz9exXUUAAgDAu.jpg:large
Click to expand...

How far gone must Virginia be for them. The moment it's solid blue, the GOP is fucked for life. Couldn't happen to a nicer group of people....

Also, I have a confession to make:

I kinda like Senator Graham. As in, I'd never vote for him. He's a warhawk, blah blah blah....but I genuinely like the man. I could totally have a kiki with him.
 
K

Kangi

Member
adam387 said:
How far gone must Virginia be for them. The moment it's solid blue, the GOP is fucked for life. Couldn't happen to a nicer group of people....

Also, I have a confession to make:

I kinda like Senator Graham. As in, I'd never vote for him. He's a warhawk, blah blah blah....but I genuinely like the man. I could totally have a kiki with him.
Click to expand...

It does take some guts to, as a Republican, call someone outright a religious bigot.

I'm voting against him with my whole heart, of course. But at least he has a spine.
 
B

Brinbe

Member
What a laughably stupid map. The more they try to contest the likes of PA/MI/MN/WI/OH, the better.

And yeah, I don't mind Graham either. He has a pretty sad backstory and there are plenty of more abhorrent Republicans out there. Anyone going at Trump like he has is on the right side of history.

That line about Graham knowing less than his son about the military is pretty insulting when you consider that Linds actually has a 30+ year career in the military and was a lawyer in the air force. It's fucking dumb as hell.
 
N

NeoXChaos

Member
Even if Hillary won IN Bernie would still be in. The goal post has been moved so many times by his campaign. First it was Iowa and when that did not work out then it was NV and then it was SC, Super Tuesday and when the drubbing they took those dates they said March 15th. When that did not work out they moved to NY and when NY was a disaster it warped into superdelegates or the now May momentum.
 
P

Prodigal Son

Member
Was there a thread on Trump's fucking ridiculous cinco de mayo Facebook post with him eating a god damn taco bowl saying "I love Hispanics!"? It was trending, I think.
 
S

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Macho Madness said:
Nate's list of "other shit everyone got wrong this cycle"

ChyRLksUoAEyEOW.jpg:large


He missed Rubio being propped up by anyone who'd listen to the GOPe.
Click to expand...

Wait wait wait, Nate wrote that?
He finally posted his mea culpa?

Prodigal Son said:
Was there a thread on Trump's fucking ridiculous cinco de mayo Facebook post with him eating a god damn taco bowl saying "I love Hispanics!"? It was trending, I think.
Click to expand...

There was, I can't think of a more deliberate and fake pander than that tweet.
 
C

Cipherr

Member
Prodigal Son said:
Non-dry by post.

What is the problem with a left-leaning news network? Aside from being a bit redundant given how much of internet new media already leans left, I don't see how having a left-leaning bias innately warrants a comparison to Fox News.

Ultimately, I think the news should report facts. Facts aren't always politically neutral however.
Click to expand...

Info bubbles are bad for everyone. Not just the right. No one should aspire to them. Do you really want to be wrong about something, but unable to see it because you wrap yourself in a blanket of false feedback and nonsense? There's just, no reason to want that. Sometimes you are going to be wrong, and things work out better if you are allowed and able to realize that.
 
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