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PoliGAF 2016 |OT5| Archdemon Hillary Clinton vs. Lice Traffic Jam

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happy to help. maybe you can point out where i'm suggesting you vote for clinton here, particularly given that there's at least one other left-wing protest valve available in california before i even get to write-ins

e: though even that one has shit and garbage positions that aren't actually based on anything empirical! so i guess write someone in.
 
Regardless of whether Jill Stein's terrible positions could be implemented why would you want to send the democrats the "message" that those positions are acceptable?
 
First, if you want to vote for Jill Stein, feel free. One thing I'm adamant about is that a vote is a vote. I really dislike the Berniecrat criteria of pretending Reddit upvotes, phone-calls made, Facebook likes, "likeability" polls, etc., are a suitable replacement for voting in a democracy. If you can vote but you don't vote, politicians ignore you. You can argue "my vote doesn't count", but there's a purpose to voting beyond who literally wins the election - it's a flag of visibility.

Anyway: Here is why Jill Stein drives me nuts with the anti-vaccine thing. Most political debates and stances are based off of a fundamental disagreement about priorities or values. Obviously, things get obfuscated by the media and not everyone is working with 100% data, but primarily we make our political choices based on value judgements. I am going to side with a politician who supports gay rights not because I've sat down and poured through the scientific literature saying it's okay, but because it's a moral position I hold strongly. Likewise, if someone disagreed with Hillary because of her foreign or domestic policies, I would support their right to do so - I might argue with them over the consistency of their beliefs, specific accuracy in their narrative, and try to challenge them, but I'm not going to call someone stupid or dismiss their position because I accept people can start from an axiom that is totally far and away from mine.

The problem is, vaccines aren't like that though. The science is unequivocal - the risk/benefit ratio is astounding and they are one of the most important preventative health benefits ever discovered in the history of mankind. Stein's inability (especially as a physician!) to accept the data that they are safe, effective, and do not cause autism says nothing about her values, but is a direct reflection on her actual competence to assess evidence and come to a reasonable conclusion. To be blunt, she is not intelligent enough to be commander in chief and she is an example of my greatest fear - progressivism simply becoming a religion divorced from a science-based approach to policy.

I apologize if you feel like you're getting dog-piled and I don't want to come off as mean - I'm just wanting to try and elucidate why someone being anti-vaccine is not "just another issue" on the table that we happen to disagree about. It shows a fundamental degree of incompetence, even though in the political landscape it's not really considered a controversial topic.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Because that's not the message that would actually be sent. It is more so that moving left is what is needed. Although, the suggestion to write-in Sanders seems hilariously awesome, so maybe that could be an option. Although, like Stein, he does not have a perfect track record either. Shocker, I know...

It won't even be recorded as a write in candidate has to be registered.
 

User1608

Banned
Vote for whoever you wish for is all I can say. At the end of the day being able to vote is an amazing privilege for one to have.
 
with sanders' track record it's more like "he made a few mistakes over a 26-year career that he is trying to atone for" than "jeb bush"

but yeah, turns out your vote wouldn't get counted unless sanders specifically filed as a write-in candidate, so lol me. take that ballot to crazy town
and then organize a mob and march into sacramento, because that requirement is obnoxious
 
interesting note: orgeon, iowa, mississippi, new hampshire, new jersey, pennsylvania, rhode island and vermont all don't require any paperwork to file as a write-in candidate

also, write-in candidates in california specifically can't advance to the second round of the state's primaries

(also, my actual opinion on stein is roughly what hammy just posted, but i admit i do probably get too vitriolic about her)
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
interesting note: orgeon, iowa, mississippi, new hampshire, new jersey, pennsylvania, rhode island and vermont all don't require any paperwork to file as a write-in candidate

also, write-in candidates in california specifically can't advance to the second round of the state's primaries

(also, my actual opinion on stein is roughly what hammy just posted, but i admit i do probably get too vitriolic about her)

Really? I would not want to be in charge of dealing with those ballots.
Then again, I suspect less than 1% write in anyway.
 

Crud

Banned
The Trump Ryan relationship is beyond repair. Trump will meet with him just to be told that he does not have Ryan's support. Thursday is the end..
 

Crocodile

Member
I'm not entirely sure I understand voting 3rd party in the abstract.

Scenario 1: 3rd Party doesn't get enough votes to be statistically relevant. The major party that most aligns with your views gets no message because they can't hear you and they already understand they can't please everybody.

Scenario 2: 3rd Party does get enough votes to be statically relevant. This deprives the major party you are most aligned with from getting votes which in turn significantly increases the chance of the major party you least agree with wins. From the perspective of self-interest that seems.......awful?

In one circumstance nobody hears you and in the other you get the outcome you want the least. Isn't that lose-lose? If you feel comfortable for voting 3rd party because your state is "safe", doesn't that mean you recognize ahead of time that nobody will actually hear your voice? If you thought your voice could actually be heard through your vote (i.e. there are enough people in a state that think like you) than that means your state isn't "safe". Isn't this a catch-22? It would make more sense to write your local state politicians or grab their ear in some other way, perhaps as an organized front or peaceful protest, than to vote 3rd party no?

"Nobody's perfect" type rebuttals (that go no further than that) can be problematic because not all flaws are created equal. It's possible for two people to be imperfect but for one to be worse in significant, measurable, more objective ways than the other. I think it might make it easier for others to understand why you want to vote 3rd party if you could explicitly state why you think they would run the WH better. What explicitly about their policies do you like (more left or more right isn't specific enough)? Why do you think they can get them done as a party with little political capital?
 
By the way, I appreciate the debt/deficit talk on the last few pages. Once I learned that running a small deficit actually isn't bad because, due to inflation, the government actually makes money if they initially borrow the money at interest rates that are outpaced by the rate of inflation, my mind was blown.

It also changed the calculus of how I approach budgetary talks; arguments that we desperately need spending cuts come off as non-starters to me considering our credit rating, GDP, and how little a deficit that we're running, In fact, I would argue that we should borrow and spend whenever interest rates are low to build projects that would benefit the nation. Right now, interest rates are low - why aren't we doing a universal broadband project or a high-speed coast-to-coast railway or a space elevator? Now is the time.
 

Gotchaye

Member
Because that's not the message that would actually be sent. It is more so that moving left is what is needed. Although, the suggestion to write-in Sanders seems hilariously awesome, so maybe that could be an option. Although, like Stein, he does not have a perfect track record either. Shocker, I know...

Yeah, I think this is right. Nobody would look at the Green Party doing okay in non-swing states as a signal that there are votes to be won denying the usefulness of vaccines. The Green Party is just a way for people to protest vote that the Democrats aren't liberal enough.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
By the way, I appreciate the debt/deficit talk on the last few pages. Once I learned that running a small deficit actually isn't bad because, due to inflation, the government actually makes money if they initially borrow the money at interest rates that are outpaced by the rate of inflation, my mind was blown.

It also changed the calculus of how I approach budgetary talks; arguments that we desperately need spending cuts come off as non-starters to me considering our credit rating, GDP, and how little a deficit that we're running, In fact, I would argue that we should borrow and spend whenever interest rates are low to build projects that would benefit the nation. Right now, interest rates are low - why aren't we doing a universal broadband project or a high-speed coast-to-coast railway or a space elevator? Now is the time.

If you go that way, and it's certainly possible, you would need a government to pay back some of that spending in later years, and that's a bit of a risk. Our overall debt ratio is not dangerous at the moment, but spending too much could prove to be a problem. The other option is the fund most of it through taxes, and any shortfalls over overruns by deficit.
 
Whoa, what happened? Looks like Bernie lost a lot of ground there?

How about these polls?
http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/2016-california-democratic-presidential-primary

I take it it will be switching to 70-30 for Bernie any day now? I guess it doesn't matter if Hillary wins California if Bernie picks up 1-2 delegates in West Virginia, though.

I have a berning feeling that California would love to be the ones to deliver a surprise bumper win for Bernie, that gifts him the Democratic nomination :).

Luis Guzman adds his support to the countless celebrities that have shown their heartfelt support for Bernie and his campaign:

 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Daniel B·;202965439 said:
I have a berning feeling that California would love to be the ones to deliver a surprise bumper win for Bernie, that gifts him the Democratic nomination :).

Luis Guzman adds his support to the countless celebrities that have shown their heartfelt support for Bernie and his campaign:


If the polling is correct, Sanders would need to make Hillary non-viable by the time that election rolls around.

And, you must have really gotten a PC, cause I don't think you can do screen caps on a ps3.

Edit: 71% in california and 70% everywhere else assuming he ties in NJ and DC.
 
If you go that way, and it's certainly possible, you would need a government to pay back some of that spending in later years, and that's a bit of a risk. Our overall debt ratio is not dangerous at the moment, but spending too much could prove to be a problem. The other option is the fund most of it through taxes, and any shortfalls over overruns by deficit.

I would assume that doing things like raising income tax rates/creating a new higher bracket for 1M+ earners, eliminating the Social Security tax cap, and raising cap gains taxes to some extent would be a proper hedge against deflation or a debt burden that is too high for our GDP. We should probably do some combination of these things anyway even if we aren't looking to spend on a national project.

I could be wrong, though. I'm mostly self-taught on this stuff and not an expert like some folks here.
 
If the polling is correct, Sanders would need to make Hillary non-viable by the time that election rolls around.

And, you must have really gotten a PC, cause I don't think you can do screen caps on a ps3.

I'm on my ThinkPad at mo, as was rounding off an update to PS3 bookmarklet (Subs XMB related), but I really do normally post screenshots from my PS3 slim, and you can tell because the video thumbnails are of JW Player v4.2 (older version allows JavaScript interaction in PS3 browser) video player.
 

zou

Member
By the way, I appreciate the debt/deficit talk on the last few pages. Once I learned that running a small deficit actually isn't bad because, due to inflation, the government actually makes money if they initially borrow the money at interest rates that are outpaced by the rate of inflation, my mind was blown.

It also changed the calculus of how I approach budgetary talks; arguments that we desperately need spending cuts come off as non-starters to me considering our credit rating, GDP, and how little a deficit that we're running, In fact, I would argue that we should borrow and spend whenever interest rates are low to build projects that would benefit the nation. Right now, interest rates are low - why aren't we doing a universal broadband project or a high-speed coast-to-coast railway or a space elevator? Now is the time.

I mean not only isn't it bad, it's necessary. Since all sectors need to balance, a budget surplus means someone else has to pick up the slack. That's what happened during the 2000 surplus. And it's the reason Germany's surplus is so hurtful, they are draining liquidity in the Euro zone.

Sectoral_Financial_Balances_in_U.S._Economy.png
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
The Trump Ryan relationship is beyond repair. Trump will meet with him just to be told that he does not have Ryan's support. Thursday is the end..

I'm honestly shocked that Ryan came out saying he wouldn't support Trump "at this point", but really, just give it time. I refuse to believe there's any Republican on the planet, especially one who has lived and breathed that life for nearly his entire existence like Paul Ryan who wouldn't actually support him at the end of the day. Hell, even Bob Dole gave Trump his blessing, and he's way less of a shithead than Ryan is.

Did you guys not play Halo 3 or something

Wait, that's Halo 3?? Hahaha. Guess they spent most of the budget on advertising and didn't have enough left for animation.
 

TyrantII

Member
First, if you want to vote for Jill Stein, feel free. One thing I'm adamant about is that a vote is a vote. I really dislike the Berniecrat criteria of pretending Reddit upvotes, phone-calls made, Facebook likes, "likeability" polls, etc., are a suitable replacement for voting in a democracy. If you can vote but you don't vote, politicians ignore you. You can argue "my vote doesn't count", but there's a purpose to voting beyond who literally wins the election - it's a flag of visibility.

Anyway: Here is why Jill Stein drives me nuts with the anti-vaccine thing. Most political debates and stances are based off of a fundamental disagreement about priorities or values. Obviously, things get obfuscated by the media and not everyone is working with 100% data, but primarily we make our political choices based on value judgements. I am going to side with a politician who supports gay rights not because I've sat down and poured through the scientific literature saying it's okay, but because it's a moral position I hold strongly. Likewise, if someone disagreed with Hillary because of her foreign or domestic policies, I would support their right to do so - I might argue with them over the consistency of their beliefs, specific accuracy in their narrative, and try to challenge them, but I'm not going to call someone stupid or dismiss their position because I accept people can start from an axiom that is totally far and away from mine.

The problem is, vaccines aren't like that though. The science is unequivocal - the risk/benefit ratio is astounding and they are one of the most important preventative health benefits ever discovered in the history of mankind. Stein's inability (especially as a physician!) to accept the data that they are safe, effective, and do not cause autism says nothing about her values, but is a direct reflection on her actual competence to assess evidence and come to a reasonable conclusion. To be blunt, she is not intelligent enough to be commander in chief and she is an example of my greatest fear - progressivism simply becoming a religion divorced from a science-based approach to policy.

I apologize if you feel like you're getting dog-piled and I don't want to come off as mean - I'm just wanting to try and elucidate why someone being anti-vaccine is not "just another issue" on the table that we happen to disagree about. It shows a fundamental degree of incompetence, even though in the political landscape it's not really considered a controversial topic.

.

QFT
 

SheSaidNo

Member
I'm not entirely sure I understand voting 3rd party in the abstract.

Scenario 1: 3rd Party doesn't get enough votes to be statistically relevant. The major party that most aligns with your views gets no message because they can't hear you and they already understand they can't please everybody.

Scenario 2: 3rd Party does get enough votes to be statically relevant. This deprives the major party you are most aligned with from getting votes which in turn significantly increases the chance of the major party you least agree with wins. From the perspective of self-interest that seems.......awful?

In one circumstance nobody hears you and in the other you get the outcome you want the least. Isn't that lose-lose? If you feel comfortable for voting 3rd party because your state is "safe", doesn't that mean you recognize ahead of time that nobody will actually hear your voice? If you thought your voice could actually be heard through your vote (i.e. there are enough people in a state that think like you) than that means your state isn't "safe". Isn't this a catch-22? It would make more sense to write your local state politicians or grab their ear in some other way, perhaps as an organized front or peaceful protest, than to vote 3rd party no?

"Nobody's perfect" type rebuttals (that go no further than that) can be problematic because not all flaws are created equal. It's possible for two people to be imperfect but for one to be worse in significant, measurable, more objective ways than the other. I think it might make it easier for others to understand why you want to vote 3rd party if you could explicitly state why you think they would run the WH better. What explicitly about their policies do you like (more left or more right isn't specific enough)? Why do you think they can get them done as a party with little political capital?

Some cities are effectively one party cities, like Chicago. The Democratic Machine picks who is going to run in the various positions of the city. Primary challengers to the incumbent pick ,but still running under the democrat banner, are not given access to the voter files, data, and funding held by the Democratic party. A third party is useful in these cases, although you could argue its just a second party in the city. The working family's party in New York helped to get a progressive like deblasio elected and because of the size of their voting bloc, had a sizable influence on his policy.
 

Drek

Member
Anyway, I really did enjoy the advice. Although, all it has made me do is consider not voting at all, as it appears no matter the candidate, they all are fucked up one way or another. Perhaps, it is better just to believe what I believe, and push what I believe through the methods that are available to myself, rather than trying to find one out of a bunch of flawed candidates that fit my beliefs closest. Either way, I hope Hillary wins when it comes down to her versus Trump, as she is the better choice. Participation in this broken process may not be what's best in maintaining a sound mind this time around.

Perhaps in eight years the Democrats will have a better candidate.

I will definitely still be voting on the issues though. Marijuana legalization in California is everything dahling! Thank you.

tumblr_n4tdpqRPSv1twh0i1o1_500.gif

So you know Clinton is the objectively better choice but would rather abstain due to personal ideology instead of fulfill your role in the system of universal suffrage we are blessed with as U.S. citizens?

Someone made a good point in an OT thread earlier today: minorities have been forced to vote legitimate lesser evil candidates and still show the hell up. Now we have a candidate who is for equal rights for all, universal healthcare, affordable secondary education, increased minimum wage, strong regulations on corporations in general and the banking sector specifically, and who will obviously select a left leaning Supreme Court judge to fill a tie breaking vacancy, making the court lean to the left for the first time in most of our lives.

But because she differs on how to achieve these goals in comparison to the alternative who is losing to her in an open and fair primary she's shit.

Goddamn. And people wonder how the GOP keeps it's foot in the door. I will never understand what possesses people to feel that purity test voting is in any way the right thing to do.
 

Wilsongt

Member
I am loving these Rupaul gifs.

Speaking of...

North Carolina on Monday faces a crucial deadline to stop enforcement of its new transgender bathroom law, which the Justice Department has condemned as a violation of the Civil Rights Act.

Authorities are now threatening to cut off billions in federal funding for the state, which Gov. Pat McCrory bills as the “federal government being a bully.”

Speaking out in a Fox News Sunday exclusive, McCrory explained today that he’d asked for an extension on the decision, which was declined.

The Republican governor says he now plans to make a decision within the next 24 hours.

But he maintains that “we did not start this on the right,” adding that the issue was created by “the left-wing of the Democratic Party.”


“This is a basic change of norms that we’ve used for decades throughout the United States of America, and the Obama administration is trying to now change that norm,” said McCrory.

The governor said authorities have even publicly suggested they could “take away North Carolina’s money for roads and other transportation needs.”


“If it is challenged, I’m not going to risk any money for the state of North Carolina,” he told Chris Wallace.

But he slammed companies like PayPal for cancelling plans to build facilities that would have created hundreds of jobs, saying it reeked of “selective hypocrisy and selective outrage.”

You mention roads, but mention shit when it comes to schools? Probably because he doesn't give a shit about education.

giphy.gif
 

Holmes

Member
The Hillary Clinton that exists in the mind of Sanders supporters must be a really horrible person.

I can't vote but I if I could, I would probably vote no on the marijuana legalization here in California. It seems to be what fuels Sanders supporters and I'm a petty bitch. My husband, who supports Sanders, legitimately seems to be leaning towards voting no. lol
 
I feel like marijuana legalization is especially important in California because of the size of its minority population. The amount of black and Latino men who've been thrown into jail over it in just the LA and Oakland areas has to be astounding.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
The Hillary Clinton that exists in the mind of Sanders supporters must be a really horrible person.

I can't vote but I if I could, I would probably vote no on the marijuana legalization here in California. It seems to be what fuels Sanders supporters and I'm a petty bitch. My husband, who supports Sanders, legitimately seems to be leaning towards voting no. lol

I just want some evidence of her alleged corruption. But I never get any when I ask :*(

Edit: Also wait what, Sanders supporters are against the legalization?
 

Crocodile

Member
You are forgetting the importance of believing in something and supporting something at the personal level. There is a personal component to voting. Supporting ideals of a party that are more in line with your own perceptions is, of course, a privilege, and I already have acknowledged that. The singular act of voting is what I am, and have been, referring to. Not getting involved at the local level, which has already been brought up, and which I have already acknowledged is important. This feels like a restatement, and it effectively is one.

I think what I'm really curious is what policies specifically do you like about the Green Party and do you think they would/could actually enact them if elected? If it's about the principles those are the things that should mater the most I'd think.

Some cities are effectively one party cities, like Chicago. The Democratic Machine picks who is going to run in the various positions of the city. Primary challengers to the incumbent pick ,but still running under the democrat banner, are not given access to the voter files, data, and funding held by the Democratic party. A third party is useful in these cases, although you could argue its just a second party in the city. The working family's party in New York helped to get a progressive like deblasio elected and because of the size of their voting bloc, had a sizable influence on his policy.

Yeah, the dynamics change when the 3rd party becomes the de-facto 2nd party but I wouldn't call that a normal situation (or maybe I underestimate its prevalence?) and that doesn't apply to the GE this fall.
 
I just want some evidence of her alleged corruption. But I never get any when I ask :*(

It's like 11th dimensional corruption, mane. It just has to exist because...also, fraud. And then, there's the BEN GHAZI! And, I'm just asking questions, but do we know if Vince Foster ever went to White Water or....where there's smoke there's often fire trucks. So Hillary....is a fire truck.

: nods :

She's so corrupt.
 

ampere

Member
I remain unconvinced that either major political party takes protest votes into account when trying to decide policy. It'd make much more sense to shift towards the middle since the vast majority will vote for the two major parties.

If you vote Green because you want the Dems to move further to the left, I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that this actually works.

I'm trying to find data on how the parties view protest votes, but I'm not having any luck. If anyone has any good sources they should share.


You go girl.
 
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