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PoliGAF 2016 |OT5| Archdemon Hillary Clinton vs. Lice Traffic Jam

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C

Cesare Borgia

Banned
NYCmetsfan said:
Why should we give any of that to him?

His opponent has different views on all of these and won.

He lost even while running on those things, you can't just demand that the loser dictates the terms.
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Exactly, he shouldn't get anything. Especially given how unrealistic his entire agenda is. There are conservative democrats who support fracking, a $15 national minimum wage doesn't work in many smaller cities/towns, and an independent shouldn't decide how democrat primaries are created. Get out.
 
H

hammysaurusrex

Member
I know a lot of people in this thread don't like Bernie, but it's really short-sighted to think that just because Hillary won that Bernie's whole campaign should be thrown out the window. There's a lot of people that want the Democratic party to move left, and maybe Bernie wasn't the right candidate to pull it off, but his message resonated and the DNC absolutely need to do something to keep his voters engaged.
Click to expand...

Some general personal thoughts:

1) Is the political collateral being offered actually worth something though?- or are these new-found political revolutionaries simply going to vanish into thin air when it comes time to invoke actual political change through local and congressional elections... like they have always historically. There seem to be 2 possible outcomes: Bernie turns his political machine to flip congress seats from Republicans to progressive Democrats. Or... Bernie's machine takes on a mind of its own and begins a purity purge, using their time and energy to hunt down Democrats who aren't progressive "enough" and essentially creating a Democratic Tea Party, while ferocious anti-progressive Republicans have a field day.

2) I'm not a fan of the idea "Hillary wins, so fuck those upstarts"; however, the unfortunate reality is the Sanders campaign (both from a top-down and bottom-up strategy) decided to make this primary, particularly recently, into a salted earth campaign. The "not-politician" suddenly became an unapologetic opportunistic politician the moment actual victory came into sight. I absolutely think they should be able to negotiate about the future of the party, but actions have consequences, and their sincerity and commitment to "the issues" lost considerable credibility in my eyes.
 
G

gutter_trash

Banned
Yesterday was probably John Kasich's worst day ever LOL. i watched several videos from CNN, MSNBC and ABC. They guy was completely non photogenic and was uncomfortable as fuck.

I hope Trump destroys it tonight and then wins in Indiana

Learn how to eat pancakes
 
H

Holmes

Member
Macho Madness said:
Trump aboard the #BernieOrBust train
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Honestly in terms of where he's won and how he's been getting a lot of his additional pledged delegates, Sanders is the Cruz of the race. I wonder if Trump realizes this. Both Cruz and Sanders are even both 2+ million votes down from the frontrunners.
 
A

Armaros

Member
benicillin said:
He won't get all of that, obviously. He knows that and we all know that. He's bargaining and negotiating the support he's drummed up for pushing the Democratic platform further left. What he ends up getting? I've got no idea, but he should totally be allowed to negotiate.

I know a lot of people in this thread don't like Bernie, but it's really short-sighted to think that just because Hillary won that Bernie's whole campaign should be thrown out the window. There's a lot of people that want the Democratic party to move left, and maybe Bernie wasn't the right candidate to pull it off, but his message resonated and the DNC absolutely need to do something to keep his voters engaged.
Click to expand...

Going by Bernie's own rhetoric and how he has attacked the entire party, he isn't trying to move anything to anywhere, but instead wants to burn it down and replace it with his platform. Calling on your supporters to protest and try to shut down fundraising for down-ballot Democrats is not negotiating. Neither is attacking your Democratic Opponent for fundraising for down ballot democrats and then accusing her of actually just stealing the money for her own campaign and not actually for other Democrats.

If this is how he is going to negotiate at the convention, then he should expect nothing but media ridicule.
 
F

Fenderputty

Banned
pigeon said:
You are like a second wave gentrifier if you like authentic local merchants but you're still white and well-off. First wave is punks, yoga studios don't show up until like fourth wave.

Ultimately gentrification is a systemic racial issue so if you want to fight it you just need to fix racism. There isn't much you can do as an individual otherwise because you have to live somewhere and eat something and gentrification is a consequence of many people making individually reasonable decisions about that stuff. Ultimately the root cause of gentrification is segregated neighborhoods in the first place and that's just straightforward racial in action.
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They're segregated due to income levels as much as race though. I guess that's to tit for tat when considering systemic racism though. If you're a part of the early gentrifiers, you clearly don't have an issue living in a diverse neighborhood. Ideally wealth would be more equitable among the races so people wouldn't need to move, like slayven.
 
B

benicillin

Banned
hammysaurusrex said:
Some general personal thoughts:

1) Is the political collateral being offered actually worth something though?- or are these new-found political revolutionaries simply going to vanish into thin air when it comes time to invoke actual political change through local and congressional elections... like they have always historically. There seem to be 2 possible outcomes: Bernie turns his political machine to flip congress seats from Republicans to progressive Democrats. Or... Bernie's machine takes on a mind of its own and begins a purity purge, using their time and energy to hunt down Democrats who aren't progressive "enough" and essentially creating a Democratic Tea Party, while ferocious anti-progressive Republicans have a field day.

2) I'm not a fan of the idea "Hillary wins, so fuck those upstarts"; however, the unfortunate reality is the Sanders campaign (both from a top-down and bottom-up strategy) decided to make this primary, particularly recently, into a salted earth campaign. The "not-politician" suddenly became an unapologetic opportunistic politician the moment actual victory came into sight. I absolutely think they should be able to negotiate about the future of the party, but actions have consequences, and their sincerity and commitment to "the issues" lost considerable credibility in my eyes.
Click to expand...

I still believe that this fear of the "Bernie or Bust" Democratic tea-party movement is completely overblown and driven mostly by media speculation and the nature of social media that skews our ability to tell truth from reality. The small percentage of Bernie's voters that actually subscribe to that idea are overly active on the Internet, and the nature of Twitter, Facebook, GAF etc. makes it easy to think that the whole world (or in this case group) thinks one way because of the behavior of what is probably no more than a couple hundred people.

This is the first election where social media is really a thing, it's incredibly important to keep perspective.
 
H

hammysaurusrex

Member
benicillin said:
I still believe that this fear of the "Bernie or Bust" Democratic tea-party movement is completely overblown and driven mostly by media speculation and the nature of social media that skews our ability to tell truth from reality. The small percentage of Bernie's voters that actually subscribe to that idea are overly active on the Internet, and the nature of Twitter, Facebook, GAF etc. makes it easy to think that the whole world (or in this case group) thinks one way because of the behavior of what is probably no more than a couple hundred people.

This is the first election where social media is really a thing, it's incredibly important to keep perspective.
Click to expand...

I agree. I present them as alternatives which gives the illusion it's 50/50 - but I agree the dreaded "Tea Party" scenario is not going to happen in reality.

To be honest, I feel silly because I didn't explicitly state the third option and the one I think is actually going to happen: Nothing.
 
8

8 X 11 Printer Paper

Member
benicillin said:
I still believe that this fear of the "Bernie or Bust" Democratic tea-party movement is completely overblown and driven mostly by media speculation and the nature of social media that skews our ability to tell truth from reality. The small percentage of Bernie's voters that actually subscribe to that idea are overly active on the Internet, and the nature of Twitter, Facebook, GAF etc. makes it easy to think that the whole world (or in this case group) thinks one way because of the behavior of what is probably no more than a couple hundred people.

This is the first election where social media is really a thing, it's incredibly important to keep perspective.
Click to expand...

I think must of us agree that its overblown, but the fear of it somehow happening is stuck in the back of our minds. And won't go away until the deed is done (Clinton winning the GE). Logic and reason don't always conquer fear.
 
E

Effect

Member
Captain Pants said:
I say this as a guy who just wants this to be over and is totally done with Bernie's shit... I don't want to see him vilified. I just don't think it does any good to shut him out, and even worse, I think it alienates his supporters, who should be welcomed into the fold when this is over.
Click to expand...

I think he'll do it to himself. He's going to isolate himself. What the party likely won't do is bend over backwards to stop it or beg him to not push them away. Here's the thing about his supporters though. As it becomes clearer and clearer he's not going to win I think and hope, many of them will start walking away themselves. They'll see what he's keeps doing and not see the point in his actions. I believe the vast majority of Sanders supporters while preferring him would be fine with Hillary. The reverse is also true. The point is that a Dem is in the White House. So when she gets the nom they'll be right there to vote for her and even work to get her elected. Defend her against GOP attacks, etc.

The more hardcore supporters are the issue and likely won't give up the fight. I think for a number of them they've vilified Hillary Clinton so much, convinced themselves she's evil, etc that they can't make the switch no matter what. Nothing short of Sanders being the nom will make them happy. They very likely were never going to vote anyone but Sanders in the first place and normally wouldn't have voted. They will have to be written off and only they can change their minds I think. At that point the Dems have to work to make sure they're running up the numbers overall with their ground game to get people to vote.
 
N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
Cesare Borgia said:
Exactly, he shouldn't get anything. Especially given how unrealistic his entire agenda is. There are conservative democrats who support fracking, a $15 national minimum wage doesn't work in many smaller cities/towns, and an independent shouldn't decide how democrat primaries are created. Get out.
Click to expand...

I don't know about nothing, I mean there is some things he cares about that clinton by and large agrees on. Better nomination process, easier registration, better managing of voting roles. I think they can make his idea of universal health care a value statement of the party without endorsing single payer. Clinton by and large agrees with him on super pacs and citizens united, etc.

My issue is him trying to put issues he used against clinton and lost with, on the platform. You can't draw a distinction lose and then pretend that the party should go with the losing platform

benicillin said:
I still believe that this fear of the "Bernie or Bust" Democratic tea-party movement is completely overblown and driven mostly by media speculation and the nature of social media that skews our ability to tell truth from reality. The small percentage of Bernie's voters that actually subscribe to that idea are overly active on the Internet, and the nature of Twitter, Facebook, GAF etc. makes it easy to think that the whole world (or in this case group) thinks one way because of the behavior of what is probably no more than a couple hundred people.

This is the first election where social media is really a thing, it's incredibly important to keep perspective.
Click to expand...

Twitter and facebook were a huge thing back in 2012 and 2014.

It might be overblown but I have real fear, especially with young people all he's contributing is building distrust when young people are forming their political ideologies. Obama built it on trust and the idea we can do better, bernie is reinforcing the idea that you don't matter when you lose. That's dangerous for democracy and democrats. DIsillusionment is how we went from LBJ to all those republican presidents after watergate. I don't want that repeated and that's my issue with bernie. He can't take a lose well and he's telling his supporters you didn't lose, you were stolen from.

That's not a way to build a progressive legacy, its building a apathetic generation which just bitches and moans when things don't go their ways, which is inevitable in a democracy. Look at clinton's glass ceiling speech when she conceded in 08. She didn't complain that the system was rigged, she said we lost now but we'll fight harder next time. And she took to task those that we're going to follow her in supporting Obama
 
S

Spoiled Milk

Banned
NYCmetsfan said:
I think they can make his idea of universal health care a value statement of the party without endorsing single payer.
Click to expand...
Just want to say that universal health care has been a value statement of the party since Hillary Clinton was appointed head of the special health care task force by Bill Clinton in 1993.
 
M

Macho Madness

Member
Minimum wage is just about the most universally supported policy there is.

And Trump is already on record saying he doesn't like it and that wages are too high. Hilarious.

Trump also thinks vaccines cause Autism.
 
B

benicillin

Banned
Armaros said:
Going by Bernie's own rhetoric and how he has attacked the entire party, he isn't trying to move anything to anywhere, but instead wants to burn it down and replace it with his platform. Calling on your supporters to protest and try to shut down fundraising for down-ballot Democrats is not negotiating. Neither is attacking your Democratic Opponent for fundraising for down ballot democrats and then accusing her of actually just stealing the money for her own campaign and not actually for other Democrats.

If this is how he is going to negotiate at the convention, then he should expect nothing but media ridicule.
Click to expand...

I'll be honest, I can't really speak to any of that because I can't follow politics that closely. Too much vitriol and drama coming from every direction makes it emotionally taxing. Compared to the GOP race I can hardly believe that some of the "attacks" on the Democrat side are even labeled as attacks. They're boring and only exciting or dramatic because nothing else is going on.

I don't believe Sanders or the majority of his supporters intent is malicious, and Sanders knows that a Democrat in the Whitehouse is the only way the country moves in any direction that he'd like it to and is going to do what he can to make sure it happens. Will he support Hillary like Hillary went to bat for Obama? Probably not, but I don't think he's the right candidate for that. He's better off focused on attacking Republicans and promoting the Democratic platform in general.
 
P

plagiarize

Banned
Kristoffer said:
Just want to say that universal health care has been a value statement of the party since Hillary Clinton was appointed head of the special health care task force by Bill Clinton in 1993.
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The notion some people have that Clinton jumped on the 'voting reform' bandwagon is one of the most deluded opinions I've seen put forth by Sanders supporters. She's pretty much put the wheels on the wagon.
 
I

ItWasMeantToBe19

Banned
Rand Paul recognizes that he will need the crazy people currently voting for Bernie later in his political life:

Cg-3jS5WkAAvKi3.jpg
 
N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
teiresias said:
"A Leprechaun, mounted upon a grand, majestic unicorn, trailing raindows in its wake, shall deliver Healthcare to every man, woman, and child in America."
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Nah, just the line about no, man women or child should go without healthcare in the richest nation on earth or something.

He might get some college stuff. He's not getting policy, he might get rhetoric
 
S

Spoiled Milk

Banned
Sea Manky said:
It's both. Racial discrimination in renting and real estate contributes to segregation, and so does self-selected segregation where people either flee neighborhoods or refuse to move into them based on the presence of minorities.
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Look, I know you want to talk about Post-Crowe segregation, but I am just talking about gentrification right now. Gentrification is not caused by racism, period. Neither you nor pigeon have explained the link yet, and if you did, I really need you to delineate the exact sentence because I'm just not getting it.


Well, I'm kind of with NYCmetsfan on the idea that some gentrification is good, since it increases integration and diversity and breathes more economic life into areas that badly need it. The problem is when those later more monied waves that pigeon talked about end up pushing out the original residents.
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It is a problem. But San Francisco for example is predominantly white, has always been predominantly white, and the people affected by gentrificiation include both the minority communities living there AND the original lower class white communities because gentrification is colorblind because it is emergent phenomena because it's about economics, not race. Whether or not gentrification is net positive, the mechanism by which it happens is almost exclusively changing economic conditions.

So, if you're a white person who cares about systemic racism, and you're looking for a place to live, what do you do? Do you pick a white area to avoid gentrifying minority areas? In that case, you don't contribute to gentrification, but you do contribute to perpetuating segregation. Do you pick a diverse area to reduce segregation? In that case, you're helping integration, but you're contributing to the possibility of gentrification down the line.
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You move wherever the hell you want! And most people, you excluded, do, because people move for a confluence of a) their job b) maximizing the utility of the community they live in e.g. public schools and services c) minimizing their expected expenses and d) crime. Never have I ever heard of someone other than you say that "hmm, this neighnorhood is nice, but I don't want to contribute to ___."

As far as I'm concerned, the real problem to be solved is racism, which is the root of all these problems, and as I said, that's going to be a lot harder if not impossible to solve without integration. So my personal perspective on choosing a place to live is to choose integration over segregation. That does carry the increased risk of gentrification, but you can't control everything.
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There is no risk of gentrification because that implies probability. By moving into a neighorhood whose median income is lower than your income you have already post hoc prima facie committed to the slow roll of gentrification.


That's... not what I'm talking about at all. When white flight happens, property values go down due to the neighborhood being less desirable because of racism, so the tax base is depleted, services and infrastructure suffer, local businesses lose revenue and collapse, and eventually the area is in terrible shape. That's economic abandonment. Same as when a big industry fails or leaves an area.
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Fair point. White flight destroys the community because it leaves them with no economic resources. Obviously Baltimore is an example. I concede this.

That's... pretty much what we did to the Native Americans!
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Okay, when I think of colonization, I think of exploitation of populations and resources i.e. Africa, China, etc., but obviously you're thinking of the exploitation of just resources, which is another valid type of colonization. In this case are the resources the homes? The ability to live in a city? Is that a right? Furthermore, we are not robbing people of homes. The renters do not own the homes! In cities like San Francisco, people who owned homes became property rich. When you colonize you have to take away the property, not pay them huge sums of money for it!
 
V

Veritigo_X

Member
It's really funny seeing S4P throwing Warren under the bus in response to Bernie mentioning her as a possible VP pick.

As for the primaries today, I'll guess a Clinton sweep. RI is the only state I'm really iffy on.
 
B

blackaroni

Member
Republicans are going after those Bernie votes early lol. Palin was chosen as McCain's VP in '08 to lure in all of those Clinton votes, right?

I think the results in PA and MD will be closer than reported and Bernie wins RI and upsets in CT.
 
B

balladofwindfishes

Member
A 30 point Hillary win in MD will be devastating for Bernie

"worst case scenarios" had him at maximum, only losing by 7.

Bernie also has to win by more than 4 or 5, I believe, in Delaware to actually gain delegates, otherwise they tie.
 
O

Ophelion

Member
Veritigo_X said:
It's really funny seeing S4P throwing Warren under the bus in response to Bernie mentioning her as a possible VP pick.

As for the primaries today, I'll guess a Clinton sweep. RI is the only state I'm really iffy on.
Click to expand...

Cult of personality has no regard for petty things like the actual good people do or justice. Thank goodness their impotent rage don't mean shit for Warren. She's right where she needs to be.
 
S

superdeluxe

Member
blackaroni said:
Republicans are going after those Bernie votes early lol. Palin was chosen as McCain's VP in '08 to lure in all of those Clinton votes, right?

I think the results in PA and MD will be closer than reported and Bernie wins RI and upsets in CT.
Click to expand...

Why do you think he upsets in CT? The demos don't look that favorable, it is affluent and diverse.?
 
M

Macho Madness

Member
I think he doesn't pull off CT because demographics and closed. Single digits probably though. There's a lot of unhappiness with their current government.
 
C

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
benicillin said:
I still believe that this fear of the "Bernie or Bust" Democratic tea-party movement is completely overblown and driven mostly by media speculation and the nature of social media that skews our ability to tell truth from reality. The small percentage of Bernie's voters that actually subscribe to that idea are overly active on the Internet, and the nature of Twitter, Facebook, GAF etc. makes it easy to think that the whole world (or in this case group) thinks one way because of the behavior of what is probably no more than a couple hundred people.

This is the first election where social media is really a thing, it's incredibly important to keep perspective.
Click to expand...

I think this is very true. I feel like the echo chamber that drives social media was starting in 2012; but I think it went full on in 2016; and politics, like everything else, is being affected.
 
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