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PoliGAF 2016 |OT5| Archdemon Hillary Clinton vs. Lice Traffic Jam

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B

blackaroni

Member
superdeluxe said:
Why do you think he upsets in CT? The demos don't look that favorable, it is affluent and diverse.?
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Why? No clue tbh.
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
Hillary, channel the spirit of the Iron Lady for a bit and crush these unions when you're president.

Cg6m1XxWYAE1dJ8.jpg:large
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Fuck all of this.
 
A

adamsappel

Member
Voted in Maryland: Clinton (we had a third candidate on the ballot, Roque "Rocky" De La Fuente), Donna Edwards for senate, John Dulaney for congress. First year with a paper ballot, too.
 
S

Spoiled Milk

Banned
Cybit said:
I think this is very true. I feel like the echo chamber that drives social media was starting in 2012; but I think it went full on in 2016; and politics, like everything else, is being affected.
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Believe it or not, online communities like reddit and other forums are very democratizing and bubble busting. If you were to modify the down vote system so that it required a reason (such as "incorrect" or "spam") then r/politics would be way, way better.
 
N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
Hillary, channel the spirit of the Iron Lady for a bit and crush these unions when you're president.

Cg6m1XxWYAE1dJ8.jpg:large
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No

We can promote reform without taking away their right, like all other working people to collectively bargain.

Police unions aren't the reason we don't get criminal charges: Shity DAs, Racism, voters apathy, and agreement with police officers are.


http://gawker.com/can-the-labor-movement-live-with-police-unions-1770261739

The honest answer, for most people, is “I want it to be a powerful political force on my side.” The idea of kicking the cops out of the labor movement has a delicious appeal at a time when police racism is more visible than ever. The idea of kicking the border patrol agents out of the labor movement for endorsing a racist xenophobe whose values would seem to be in direct contradiction to labor would be fun as hell. But such actions would set a dangerous and counterproductive precedent. If you kick out the cops for protecting bad members, you can be sure that a call to kick out teachers unions for the same thing is right around the corner. If you kick out the border patrol agents for endorsing Trump, you can be sure that the AFL-CIO’s internal Bernie vs. Hillary squabble will soon turn into a call to eject those who don’t toe the official endorsement line. Ultimately, kicking out unions that we dislike politically undermines the one thing that gives the labor movement its strength: unity.

You don’t have to like the members of a police union. You don’t have to like the redneck Border Patrol union members who endorsed Donald Trump. All you have to do is recognize that all of us—you, me, the Bernie partisans, the Hillary partisans, the teachers, the restaurant workers, the liberals, the racists, the fucking cops—have one thing in common: we are members of the working class. By standing together as a labor movement, we make the working class stronger. That in turn makes the world a fairer place. That is what class consciousness means. It doesn’t mean you have to like the people you stand with. It just means that you agree to settle your differences outside the bounds of the labor movement, the purpose of which is to support labor. The racist cop and the city worker waving a sign in a protest march against racist cops have a common enemy in economic inequality and unfairness. Whether we like it or not, purposely shrinking the ranks of labor organizations is counterproductive. (Likewise, police unions behaving so outrageously that they get kicked out of labor organizations is stupid.) We can all work together on something we have in common and then tell one another to go to hell when that work is done.
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P

plagiarize

Banned
Cybit said:
I think this is very true. I feel like the echo chamber that drives social media was starting in 2012; but I think it went full on in 2016; and politics, like everything else, is being affected.
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I had a number of people on my facebook friendslist who were convinced Romney was going to win by a landslide right up until results started pouring in. It was beautiful.
 
H

Holmes

Member
Pennsylvania
Clinton 58 / Sanders 42

Maryland
Clinton 65 / Sanders 35

Delaware
Clinton 59 / Sanders 41

Connecticut
Clinton 54 / Sanders 46

Rhode Island
Clinton 52 / Sanders 48
 
C

Captain Pants

Killed by a goddamned Dredgeling
Effect said:
I think he'll do it to himself. He's going to isolate himself. What the party likely won't do is bend over backwards to stop it or beg him to not push them away. Here's the thing about his supporters though. As it becomes clearer and clearer he's not going to win I think and hope, many of them will start walking away themselves. They'll see what he's keeps doing and not see the point in his actions. I believe the vast majority of Sanders supporters while preferring him would be fine with Hillary. The reverse is also true. The point is that a Dem is in the White House. So when she gets the nom they'll be right there to vote for her and even work to get her elected. Defend her against GOP attacks, etc.

The more hardcore supporters are the issue and likely won't give up the fight. I think for a number of them they've vilified Hillary Clinton so much, convinced themselves she's evil, etc that they can't make the switch no matter what. Nothing short of Sanders being the nom will make them happy. They very likely were never going to vote anyone but Sanders in the first place and normally wouldn't have voted. They will have to be written off and only they can change their minds I think. At that point the Dems have to work to make sure they're running up the numbers overall with their ground game to get people to vote.
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That makes sense. Ideological purity is the kind of thinking that walls you off from others by default. It's one of those things where it's so easy to fall into the trap of thinking that r/s4p and facebook are indicative of the mindsets of all Bernie people. I've definitely done that, where I've been assuming the noisiest ones are the voice of the entirety of them, even though it runs counter to what is actually going on. We've definitely seen more of GAF's Bernie supporters backing away from him as this goes on and his rhetoric gets worse.
 
D

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Captain Pants said:
I say this as a guy who just wants this to be over and is totally done with Bernie's shit... I don't want to see him vilified. I just don't think it does any good to shut him out, and even worse, I think it alienates his supporters, who should be welcomed into the fold when this is over.
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Sanders alienates himself from the greater Democratic Party, not the other way around. It's not a shocker, he thinks of himself as an Independent in every meaningful area. It's very easy for him to be an angry 'my way or the highway' guy when he's a party of one that gives no fucks about any other candidates in any other races. He pops over to the Democrats when it's politically convenient and he expects the establishment, that is ostensibly beating him by a solid margin and that he's put great effort into vilifying, to bend over and fully assimilate his platform. It's silly.

teiresias said:
Going by Bernie's own campaign rhetoric him negotiating with the DNC is analogous to negotiating with terrorists to him. The DNC shouldn't give him anything until he repudiated his attacks against the organization and stops bad mouthing those trying to raise money to get Democrats elected to Congress and state and local office.


Not engaging him is not vilification. The only one doing vilifying in this process is Sanders himself. If he wants a place at the table he probably should stop shit talking the chef to their face.
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Basically.
 
P

plagiarize

Banned
RI is going to be very close. Basically a toss up. Predicting it is, imho a fools errand. That said (lol) I think Sanders will take it by a nose. I hope he doesn't, but it will do nothing to erase Clinton having won more delegates and states that held open primaries than Sanders has.

Tonight might shake off the last few rational Sanders supporters, however many of those are left... but the crazy hardcore are becoming less and less of a minority as his rational supporters see the writing on the wall. Soon it will be true to paint most of them as lunatics... but only because his more rational supporters accept his defeat and move on.
 
F

Fuchsdh

Member
I think it's a bit weird to compare white flight with gentrification because the latter has far more economic impetus and ties into broader trends—world society has been trending towards increasing urbanization and dense cities since the industrial revolution and before, and it's better to think of the push of suburbs and white flight as aberrations from that trend. Racial tensions and discrimination certainly does play a role in where people live and have lived, but at this point if anything rich white people being afraid of moving to where a bunch of black and brown folks are would only be helping thwart gentrification.

Realistically probably one of the most effective options for maintaining affordable housing besides real long-term stuff like slowing population growth is probably investing heavily in transit. Poor people need it, especially if they're pushed out of urban centers, and making it easy to get into a city for jobs or pleasure means there's less concentrated pressure in the city itself since you don't need to live right there to reap some of its benefits.

Ultimately though I think it's a question of making sure not to let the door hit people on their way out, because neighborhoods will change, and trying to stop it only accelerates the gentrification somewhere else. Ultimately the only way I could afford to live in my hometown is much more density, which would in turn destroy what I loved about it—cute old single-family homes with walkable amenities and close to mass transit to the city. C'est la vie.
 
P

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
So Trump is finally above 50% national in a poll, and the RNC is doing everything in their power to rip the nomination away from him. I can't wait for the convention.
 
I

ItWasMeantToBe19

Banned
... I'm not sure unity is really that important to maintain with murderers.

"Unity" with racists helped lead to the destruction of the GOP and that's more real than slippery slope fallacies.
 
A

Abinash117

Member
CCS said:
Aiming to shape the agenda is fine, that's what he should be doing. But he's going to have to stop railing against the party and against every Democrat who doesn't agree with him if he's going to do that.
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He most likely won't get anything, but maybe some slight compromises like Democrats pushing for a $15 wage in select areas like big cities. Anything else that seem extreme will not get on the platform. What he is trying to do is set the agenda for the future of the Democratic party which was partial his goal, but he isn't that influential within the party that much I think. He has radical mindset( many of his ideas aren't radical though ) and he lacks nuance for his ideas to really take shape in a mainstream party that has diverse ideologies and situations. It'll make things more problematic, but he'll try to push his ideas through; his current talk and the fact he has a lot of donors is his attempt to pressure the party I bet. I doubt it'll be very successful as his campaign made very foolish mistakes. I expect the party to throw him a bone though. Regardless it is ridiculous that people that normally don't vote, don't pay attention to politics, and are independent expect themselves to drastically change the party. The party will not allow that to happen.
 
S

Spoiled Milk

Banned
C

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
Kristoffer said:
Believe it or not, online communities like reddit and other forums are very democratizing and bubble busting. If you were to modify the down vote system so that it required a reason (such as "incorrect" or "spam") then r/politics would be way, way better.
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I think for 99% of topics that is true - but for politics and very heated and emotionally driven types of discussions that speak to our values as humans, it doesn't quite work as well. :D
 
M

Macho Madness

Member
The problem with the democratic spreading of news is that bad news is rarely seen that way. That's no way to consume it. I understand not wanting to see bad news all the time but you can't just create your own bubble and facts.

Of course, Reddit itself isn't the problem in that instance but it's a pillar of it. Whoever likes what this piece of news says the most wins, and more people are exposed to it. Whether it's real or comes from a place of good intentions is irrelevant. And that's the problem.
 
S

Spoiled Milk

Banned
Cybit said:
I think for 99% of topics that is true - but for politics and very heated and emotionally driven types of discussions that speak to our values as humans, it doesn't quite work as well. :D
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Honestly it is way better for people to argue and scream and shout on a public forum that has a potential to burst echo chambers than to go to e.g. a church and have kosher talking points spoon fed sumptuously into your gaping maw like lime Jell-O on a hot summer day.

I would like some more, pastor!
 
S

Spoiled Milk

Banned
Macho Madness said:
The problem with the democratic spreading of news is that bad news is rarely seen that way. That's no way to consume it. I understand not wanting to see bad news all the time but you can't just create your own bubble and facts.

Of course, Reddit itself isn't the problem in that instance but it's a pillar of it. Whoever likes what this piece of news says the most wins, and more people are exposed to it. Whether it's real or comes from a place of good intentions is irrelevant. And that's the problem.
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https://research.facebook.com/blog/exposure-to-diverse-information-on-facebook/
 
Havoc2049

Havoc2049

Member
Kristoffer said:
It is a problem. But San Francisco for example is predominantly white, has always been predominantly white, and the people affected by gentrificiation include both the minority communities living there AND the original lower class white communities because gentrification is colorblind because it is emergent phenomena because it's about economics, not race. Whether or not gentrification is net positive, the mechanism by which it happens is almost exclusively changing economic conditions.
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Bad example. San Francisco has changed, as well as much of California. San Francisco is only 48% white and the mayor is Asian. The city council is very multi-cultural as well, with two Asians, two Latinos and two Caucasians.
 
C

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
Kristoffer said:
Honestly it is way better for people to argue and scream and shout on a public forum that has a potential to burst echo chambers than to go to e.g. a church and have kosher talking points spoon fed sumptuously into your gaping maw like lime Jell-O on a hot summer day.

I would like some more, pastor!
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That's true - but I think the public forum aspect is quickly being turned into self-selected places to post. Heck, take this thread, which is ostensibly a public forum and a public thread, being very pro-Dem / pro-Hillary. This thread isn't remotely representative of even the US; yet it is easy for confirmation bias to sneak in and say "well, they agree with me, and it's a public forum..so everyone just thinks the way I do".

That said, the FB link is pretty cool, and I'm glad people are doing research into this. I'd be curious to see how FB stats compare to twitter, though.
 
O

Orbis Tabula

Member
This hand wringing over the Bernie or Bust folks is just so tiring. I'm not sure why people keep feeling compelled to have these same arguments over and over and over. It's all just an exercise in confirmation bias anyway. We're not gonna know what Bernie does until he loses, so nothing can actually be gained in these arguments. And people just get. So. Mad.


Shoot, nevermind. I didn't mean to come in to this thread just to whine about the OT thread. I hate when people do that. Sorry.
 
S

Spoiled Milk

Banned
Havoc2049 said:
Bad example. San Francisco has changed, as well as much of California. San Francisco is only 48% white and the mayor is Asian. The city council is very multi-cultural as well, with two Asians, two Latinos and two Caucasians.
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hilariously, you have shown that gentrification pushed out the white people in San Francisco. So much for racist gentrification.
 
S

Slayven

Member
Fenderputty said:
They're segregated due to income levels as much as race though. I guess that's to tit for tat when considering systemic racism though. If you're a part of the early gentrifiers, you clearly don't have an issue living in a diverse neighborhood. Ideally wealth would be more equitable among the races so people wouldn't need to move, like slayven.
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Never lived in an area that would ever be gentrified in my lifetime
 
P

PBY

Banned
Bernie Sanders is still outspending Hillary Clinton over the airwaves.

His campaign has spent $4.6 million in ads in the April 26 primary states of Connecticut, Maryland, Pennsylvania and Rhode Island, according to ad-spending data from SMG Delta.

By comparison, the Clinton campaign has spent $2.4 million in those same states. (Delaware is also holding a primary on Tuesday, but it shares a media market with Pennsylvania - so it doesn't show up in the SMG Delta numbers.)
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/first-read/sanders-outspends-clinton-april-26-primary-states-n562471
 
B

Box of Kittens

Banned
Macho Madness said:
How dare they put Hillary Clinton's name on the sample ballot! That shit is fraud!!!

fraud

FRAUFFFF FRAUF FRAUD
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There were people outside my polling place (Chicago) handing out sample ballots when I voted in the primary. I guess it was convenient to have a list of all the machine-backed candidates.
 
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