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PoliGAF 2016 |OT7| Notorious R.B.G. Plans NZ Tour

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S

Spoiled Milk

Banned
pigeon said:
There is no formal alt-left movement, I just made it up for you.
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Hurray! That was awfully kind of you.

Although there are a lot of people, especially post-Brexit, who seem to have the basic position that the biggest threat to a free and equal society is democracy, which sounds pretty alt-left to me.
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I literally just told someone this... How can you trust democracy if they vote away free trade? Nuts! Thank god Obama designs free trade agreements with Hillary Clinton in a smoke filled room on the island of Trinibad.

Most of them have not gone to the level of proposing benevolent military dictators in order to protect people's civil rights, but that just means you can be the leader.
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I humbly accept this mantle of responsibility. I shall adopt the moniker "Ben Gleck".
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
pigeon said:
There is no formal alt-left movement, I just made it up for you. Although there are a lot of people, especially post-Brexit, who seem to have the basic position that the biggest threat to a free and equal society is democracy, which sounds pretty alt-left to me.

Most of them have not gone to the level of proposing benevolent military dictators in order to protect people's civil rights, but that just means you can be the leader.
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Isn't alt-left basically green party?
 
N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
pigeon said:
There is no formal alt-left movement, I just made it up for you. Although there are a lot of people, especially post-Brexit, who seem to have the basic position that the biggest threat to a free and equal society is democracy, which sounds pretty alt-left to me.

Most of them have not gone to the level of proposing benevolent military dictators in order to protect people's civil rights, but that just means you can be the leader.
Click to expand...

I mean is this the same as having things like super majorities or representative democracies. Because that's what I think is the threat unchecked majoritarian rule (at the believe that single votes can accurately measure voters desires perfectly). Not democracy which I think this shows is even more needed.

The second bolded is frighting, lots of people bringing up Singapore and china. Believing that somehow they are good solutions
 
S

sphagnum

Banned
NYCmetsfan said:
I mean is this the same as having things like super majorities or representative democracies. Because that's what I think is the threat unchecked majoritarian rule. Not democracy which I think this shows is even more needed.

The second bolded is frighting, lots of people bringing up Singapore and china. Believing that somehow they are good solutions
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The only person I can really remember bringing up Singapore is kirblar. So unless you're saying that neoliberals are the alt-left (which actually sounds pretty accurate from a historical standpoint)...
 
N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
sphagnum said:
The only person I can really remember bringing up Singapore is kirblar. So unless you're saying that neoliberals are the alt-left (which actually sounds pretty accurate from a historical standpoint)...
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I saw someone say he wanted a technocratic meritocracy or something like Singapore. Because killing people for drugs is good or something
 
V

Vahagn

Member
I think we should take the far right people of every nation on earth. Put them in a giant steel cage somewhere without weapons, and let their hatreds of each other eventually lose to realizing they can't just punch each other to death.

I kid of course

It's just crazy to me that liberals in China and America and Saudi Arabia could all live together just fine. But far right conservatives in those countries all hate the people in the other countries and somehow think they're right in doing so.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
NYCmetsfan said:
I mean is this the same as having things like super majorities or representative democracies. Because that's what I think is the threat unchecked majoritarian rule. Not democracy which I think this shows is even more needed.

The second bolded is frighting, lots of people bringing up Singapore and china. Believing that somehow they are good solutions
Click to expand...

This is a good point. America's extremely static system was literally designed to prevent democratic voting for dumb stuff. But that's why the drift over the past few years towards executive branch power in order to circumvent the dysfunctional legislature is so frightening! Not only is it a constitutional crisis in action, it's the specific constitutional crisis that killed all the other presidential democracies! It flies in the face of the American system of letting the tea cool in the saucer.*


* Sorry Brits, too soon.
 
N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
pigeon said:
This is a good point. America's extremely static system was literally designed to prevent democratic voting for dumb stuff. But that's why the drift over the past few years towards executive branch power in order to circumvent the dysfunctional legislature is so frightening! Not only is it a constitutional crisis in action, it's the specific constitutional crisis that killed all the other presidential democracies! It flies in the face of the American system of letting the tea cool in the saucer.*


* Sorry Brits, too soon.
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I think the dysfunctional legislature will eventually start working again (I mean look at places like California and New York which are turning around do nothing legislatures) and luckily we have courts that pull some it back. I mean I think the immigration decision was wrong but it does say that the court is willing to say no.

And I think the executive branch tilt is overblown in domestic policy. Immigration is really the biggest thing and other social policies. He can't outlay money, he can't radically rewrite laws (most of is actions have been modest and regulations that we ancipated or allowed by the discretion given to these agencies in the law).

I don't see how its like caudillismo. We also have federalism that prevents this as well.
 
N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
CludpePXEAA2kX4.jpg


This reads like a sanders quote. Useless idiots
 
C

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
pigeon said:
There is no formal alt-left movement, I just made it up for you. Although there are a lot of people, especially post-Brexit, who seem to have the basic position that the biggest threat to a free and equal society is democracy, which sounds pretty alt-left to me.

Most of them have not gone to the level of proposing benevolent military dictators in order to protect people's civil rights, but that just means you can be the leader.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that's a really nice way of saying "democracy is OK as long as it gives me what I want, and if people don't agree with me, then they are now the biggest threat".

EDIT: I got pwned by pigeon http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=208236127&postcount=8334
 
K

kirblar

Member
Cybit said:
I'm pretty sure that's a really nice way of saying "democracy is OK as long as it gives me what I want, and if people don't agree with me, then they are now the biggest threat".
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Tyranny of the majority is a thing.

It's abuot protecting minorities, about making educated decisions- Democracy is often bad at both.
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
Hmm, do you think the media will ever cover the rape lawsuit Trump is involved in right now?
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Are there any reputable sources on that? I've seen a bunch of links from sites I'm not familiar with, so I've been hesitant to share it around

EDIT: The details of the case, not the existence of the lawsuit I mean
 
E

Effect

Member
If Sanders expects to take this to the convention does he actually understand, as said, that he can't speak if he doesn't drop out? I'm starting to really wonder if he and his team don't know this.
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Effect said:
If Sanders expects to take this to the convention does he actually understand, as said, that he can't speak if he doesn't drop out? I'm starting to really wonder if he and his team don't know this.
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I'm starting to think they don't realize this. Someone should let them know.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
Cybit said:
I'm pretty sure that's a really nice way of saying "democracy is OK as long as it gives me what I want, and if people don't agree with me, then they are now the biggest threat".
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I mean, sure. This seems like your version of "they're all just racists," just pointed in a different direction ;)

I think it is pretty valid to think that voters who are scared and upset might vote for things which might be bad for civil liberties, and that that might not actually be good for the values of the society they live in. I mean, that's the story of 9/11, right?
 
A

ampere

Member
cartoon_soldier said:
Transcript?
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“No I can’t [guarantee it], and I would never have made that claim. That was one of the mistakes that I think the Leave campaign made,” he said.

When it was pointed out that Vote Leave emblazoned the £350 million claim onto the side of a tour bus and drove it around the country, Mr Farage said: “It wasn’t one of my adverts – I can assure you! I think they made a mistake in doing that."
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e3mtCGM.jpg
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Boris with the slogan behind him

Basically the slogan Leave made a big deal about and used to campaign isn't true
 
D

Dierce

Member
I certainly hope to see a massive campaign against the ideas of isolationism here in the US. Absolutely nothing good can come of it. Just imagine wages lowering as the market loses regulations to promote manufacturing. Pollution increasing as a result of more factories opening up and contaminating natural resources leading to illnesses for both workers and the local population who still wont be able to afford healthcare. Added onto this a political climate where xenophobia is legitimized and probably even considered patriotic it not only would split nations, it would also cause an even deeper divide among the American population as they become even more untrusting of one another. We just cannot allow this to happen here.
 
V

Vahagn

Member
Uh Direct Democracy is trash. And as a leader of your nation, putting such historically significant things to what amounts to a coin flip are really really bad ideas.

This would be like if Obama allowed a referendum to bring back slavery or end the United States. It would be an abject failure of leadership to even ALLOW that to happen. Least of all to allow that to happen because it's a tactic to win a presidential election.
 
R

Rebel Leader

THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
ampere said:
Boris with the slogan behind him

Basically the slogan Leave made a big deal about and used to campaign isn't true
Click to expand...

not only that but as per john olivers video, it's really about 190 million (after the EU sends money back) and it would cost the Uk to acess the same market at the same price
 
B

Bowdz

Member
Vahagn said:
Uh Direct Democracy is trash. And as a leader of your nation, putting such historically significant things to what amounts to a coin flip are really really bad ideas.

This would be like if Obama allowed a referendum to bring back slavery or end the United States. It would be an abject failure of leadership to even ALLOW that to happen. Least of all to allow that to happen because it's a tactic to win a presidential election.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

Cameron fucked up big time, especially considering his margin of reelection victory.
 
C

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
kirblar said:
Tyranny of the majority is a thing.

It's abuot protecting minorities, about making educated decisions - Democracy is often bad at both.
Click to expand...

True - it's the everlasting Jefferson / Hamilton debate.

pigeon said:
I mean, sure. This seems like your version of "they're all just racists," just pointed in a different direction ;)

I think it is pretty valid to think that voters who are scared and upset might vote for things which might be bad for civil liberties, and that that might not actually be good for the values of the society they live in. I mean, that's the story of 9/11, right?
Click to expand...

Oof, fair point, I recant my remarks. :D

Hell; that's the story of the damn gun control sit-in two days ago, lol. People get scared, vote away liberties. See 9/11, Columbine, etc...

It's why I never liked the idea of killing the filibuster in the Senate - if the two sides aren't willing to compromise; trying to get around that fundamental issue seems to lead to dangerous consequences towards the tyranny of the majority. The discussion around Brexit and even Trump here is definitely an interesting modern version of the representative democracy vs direct democracy debate - and what happens when your representatives aren't representing their voters interests, but the system is being codified such that it becomes extremely difficult to dislodge said representative. Or, wave elections where the local rep loses due to the national wave, and you end up with a rep that doesn't really represent your views per se. (But if they're chosen by the voters, do they inherently represent your views? Hrm.)

I wonder how much this election brings the Hamilton / Jefferson argument to a modern era and to the forefront. Having Clinton / Trump as your two candidates, along with a lack of belief in institutions (both private and public)...hrrrm. I'm sort of a Hamilton guy (ish) when push comes to shove, but I don't know if that wouldn't incredibly backfire in the modern environment.
 
N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
Cybit said:
True - it's the everlasting Jefferson / Hamilton debate.
Click to expand...
This wasn't the Jefferson/Hamilton debate.
It was about federal powers and fiscal control. They both feared tyranny of the majorities.

Cybit said:
Oof, fair point, I recant my remarks. :D

Hell; that's the story of the damn gun control sit-in two days ago, lol. People get scared, vote away liberties. See 9/11, Columbine, etc...

It's why I never liked the idea of killing the filibuster in the Senate - if the two sides aren't willing to compromise; trying to get around that fundamental issue seems to lead to dangerous consequences towards the tyranny of the majority. The discussion around Brexit and even Trump here is definitely an interesting modern version of the representative democracy vs direct democracy debate - and what happens when your representatives aren't representing their voters interests, but the system is being codified such that it becomes extremely difficult to dislodge said representative. Or, wave elections where the local rep loses due to the national wave, and you end up with a rep that doesn't really represent your views per se. (But if they're chosen by the voters, do they inherently represent your views? Hrm.)

I wonder how much this election brings the Hamilton / Jefferson argument to a modern era and to the forefront. Having Clinton / Trump as your two candidates, along with a lack of belief in institutions (both private and public)...hrrrm. I'm sort of a Hamilton guy (ish) when push comes to shove, but I don't know if that wouldn't incredibly backfire in the modern environment.
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Laws require 50% in two houses, are limited by the Constitution and require presidential assent.

How anybody can deem this potential tyranny of the majority is beyond me

And again, that's not the divide between hamilton and jefferson. We've firmly landed on hamilton's side
 
K

kirblar

Member
I really hate the Twitter x/## thing.

There was a cool thing on scam advertisements running on right-wing media and I can't find it, and I think it was a twitter chain I have no way of easily finding.
 
G

gutter_trash

Banned
so my take away on the Brexit's impact on the US election is that the anti-immigrations stances from the Leave camp being successful will encourage Donald Trump to double down on that very issue.

so don't expect any pivot from the Trump campaign
 
F

Fuchsdh

Member
kirblar said:
Only because of the power of the Broadway establishment.
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Can't wait until people have forgotten about that goddamn play already and I can stop getting into really shitty political discussions with people who suddenly think they understand early American history through some lyrics.
 
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