Roland_Gunner
Member
This word cloud makes it pretty clear what the driving force behind the leave movement was:
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This word cloud makes it pretty clear what the driving force behind the leave movement was:
lol
User 463088
Banned
Because, for Bernie, everything is about the rigged economy. There is one issue. All of society's ills are tied to this ONE specific issue. That's all. There's nothing else. It's just millionaires and billionaires and RIGGED.
Glad you're still holding it together.
Spoiled Milk
Banned
Texit is not funny. In 2014 a Reuters poll found over half of Republicans and 34% of the state in general favored secession. Imagine if the Supreme Court had ruled in favor of DACA. Imagine what happens if Clinton gets elected with a Hispanic vice president. Imagine what happens if Clinton stacks the court against conservatives for 30 years.
EDIT: I'm definitely pro-Texit, however, because 1) I live in California, so all the business fleeing would come over here, and 2) as the third most populous state in the union, it would dramatically cut the number of Republicans in our House.
EDIT: I'm definitely pro-Texit, however, because 1) I live in California, so all the business fleeing would come over here, and 2) as the third most populous state in the union, it would dramatically cut the number of Republicans in our House.
Roland_Gunner
Member
Both the UK and larger EU signed the WTO conventions. If the UK won't agree to a special partner status they'll deal with same tariffs as the US, Japan, China, etc. Which would be really bad for them as most of their firms don't have the scale to compete directly with those multi-nationals.
AntraxSuicide
Banned
Yeah, I get that it's a tough pill to swallow, but it seems the only counter-argument to "These movements are driven by racism" is "No way, then there'd be a ton of racists!"
Surprise, there are a ton of racists. Europe and the States are full of them, and they're largely white people opposed to browner folks (read that Atlantic piece where they link to a study that anti-immigrant thoughts were much more muted when the immigrant in a news story was changed from a Hispanic guy to a Russian guy). It's racism, plain and simple.
It's nice to think that people are just decent and misled (and maybe they are misled), but there are just a shit ton of racists.
Lol
I'm jealous of this amazing reply
User 463088
Banned
https://www.facebook.com/hillaryclinton/videos/1173630786026782/
I only see this on Facebook not on Hillary's Briefing site...
But good on them. Good response to Trump.
I only see this on Facebook not on Hillary's Briefing site...
But good on them. Good response to Trump.
plagiarize
Banned
The closest they came to voting to leave the union was under President Clinton.
Still, that was a less progressive Texas that while still firmly red, has been slowly trending blue if my memory is right. So I would be shocked if they voted to leave now.
Don't they vote on it every general election? I didn't think they needed to do anything to get it on the ballot. I thought it was a standard item down there.
Imagine that we already constitutionally settled this question forever, unlike the EU who crapped out the legal exit that is article 50. Mess.
Spoiled Milk
Banned
He's hilarious. I like his show, lol.
I am quite certain they don't vote on it every election. Only recently did the state GOP nearly put to a vote whether to put it on its platform.
Then they'll just... Leave. You can't force an entire state to stay in the union. What moral imperative would we even have this time?
Grizzlyjin
Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
Austin would be airlifted to California. I can't believe there are people in Texas that would even entertain the idea. Yay, you get to slap another bumper sticker on your car. I'm for it for the same reason I'm for splitting California into multiple states, I just want to see the fuckery. But realistically, I would never want to see it.
I want to coin the next secession hashtag. Somebody convince Massachusetts to leave so we can use #MassExodus
You don't really need a moral imperative to enforce a law.
That said, couldn't Texas actually secede if the other states agreed to it? That seems to be what Texas v. White decided.
Spoiled Milk
Banned
It doesn't matter what the Supreme Court says. If they want to leave, they'll just leave. Seriously. Americans wouldn't be able to stomach a war against Texas. What are we going to do, hold them hostage? If Britain can flip its shit over LEGAL Indians and Polish then it is well within the realm of possibility that a Texas completely appalled by liberalism and overrun by illegal Mexican immigrants will take matters into its own hands.
Wait, is this a joke?
Are you seriously arguing that America wouldn't fight a war to preserve the Union?
If Texas seceded you know a bunch of other southern states would decide to take the opportunity as well to show the Yankees what's what, and we'd have the same thing happening again, except worse this time since the South isn't some agricultural backwater. But there's no way the federal government would tolerate insurrection.
Has this been posted? One of the top mods of /r/s4p went on a rant about the horrible state of the sub.
Spoiled Milk
Banned
You really want to bomb Houston into submission? Seriously? I wouldn't be able to stomach it. I have fucking friends in Texas.
No, and never.
The North and West would not go to war with the South again. We'd just have a free trade agreement and move on with our lives. You know we'd be better off without the South anyway. I can't tell you how often it pisses me off that this country can't progress in a way that the North Atlantic seaboard, the Great Lakes states, and the Pacific West want to progress in when there's a racist, reactionary south dragging it back at every step.
User 463088
Banned
If only the United States had fought a Civil War over whether the Union ought to be kept together...instead of fighting over the benefits of purse first.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
guys its not worth debating a troll
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I feel essentially the same way. There's no take-backsies after this one; what's done is done. We can't toss the bastards out in five years and try again, this was it. I feel like a stranger in my own country.
I don't support bombing Texas, but I do support arresting people who shoot at federal officials, and that's exactly how it would go down, just like last time. There's no authority to secede from the Union. The federal government would just continue to do federal government stuff, and if state officials tried to resist them they'd be criminals, and would be arrested. If they resisted arrest with deadly weapons then that would be bad, but, like, what is even the point of having a state monopoly on violence if they're not going to use that monopoly to put other violence providers out of business?
I'm not saying that I want this to happen, I just don't think this question is a live one. If 99% of Texans voted to secede, maybe. With a bare majority? No chance. America's still responsible for the well-being of its citizens.
On an antebellum note, I do want to respond to the discussion about anti-immigration policies and xenophobia but I need to collect my thoughts.
I generally agree that there is a fundamental problem in the global economy right now in that we're in the middle of another Gilded Age, and that that's creating no small amount of stress and pain for people who aren't gilded, which is leading to reactionary impulses. I even mostly agree with sphagnum that the theoretical response to this issue is socialism (or at least social democracy). The other alternative is, you know, an international worker's revolution, and I don't want to do that until we have self-driving cars figured out or it will take forever to get them working.
However I still don't think recognizing those economic concerns should outweigh recognizing that the reactionary impulses being generated are reactionary impulses! Being a racist because of economic factors that are affecting your life is not that much better than being a racist because of societal upbringing or because of the subreddits you frequent. It's still bad to be racist!
I kind of figure the nukes on both sides sort of behoove a peaceful solution.
EDIT: It does depend on the vote though. 51/49 would be way different than like 75/25. That said, you're not going to get US military to potentially fire on TX National Guard / US citizens en masse. Basically, if we've hit the point that secession becomes an actual option, the other things that have had to have happened to get to that point basically means any real prognostication is probably out the window.
Spoiled Milk
Banned
I'm not a troll. I'm seriously fucking appalled that people here so casually would go to war with an insurrectionist south. What the hell. What the hell. People accuse me of being an authoritarian but this is way beyond the pale.
I thought the whole point of state governments was the ability for states to govern their region in a manner they see fit? With more and more power coalescing into the federal government, cultural conservatives, racists, and gun lunatics are hampering America's steady progression onward. Why on Earth would people here want to preserve a Union of bitterly divided people when we have so much more potential away from this toxic relationship? Is our partisan bullshit, NRA shitfest, and healthcare stalling really fucking worth killing people we have more in common with than anyone else on the entire planet?
I thought the whole point of state governments was the ability for states to govern their region in a manner they see fit? With more and more power coalescing into the federal government, cultural conservatives, racists, and gun lunatics are hampering America's steady progression onward. Why on Earth would people here want to preserve a Union of bitterly divided people when we have so much more potential away from this toxic relationship? Is our partisan bullshit, NRA shitfest, and healthcare stalling really fucking worth killing people we have more in common with than anyone else on the entire planet?
There's no way this would be violent. I just don't believe it. I imagine there would be a peaceful return of American military equipment. Any violence would have to start from the federal government. They're the ones with the drones.
NihonTiger90
Member
There is the issue of Texas having U.S. government property in the form of things like Fort Hood and other installations. There is zero way they're allowed to seize that equipment to form a new military.
Not to mention an independent Texas must fund all its own transportation projects; that it would instantly lose the NASA Houston complex and all the 17,000 jobs there; that major companies like AT&T, ConocoPhillips, Southwest Airlines, and Halliburton would suddenly find themselves headquartered in a new country away from the rest of their business with no trade agreements in place ... it would be chaos.
It's not a matter of going to war or not; it's that simply seceding has a number of complex issues, even more when things like national defense are things you have given to a federal government.
This was great lmao.
AntraxSuicide
Banned
Mississippi can go for it. We'll use the hashtag #YouProbablyWontMissUs
Because a war to persevere the union would probably be less messy than a fractured U.S.
Spoiled Milk
Banned
I'm certain money would not be my deciding factor if I were considering killing Americans.
Roland_Gunner
Member
1. People thought that states had the right to secede pre-Civil War. They lost and no one has seriously held that opinion in the last 150+ years.
2. If a 52% of people in Mississippi wanted to secede the federal government should intervene to protect to rights of everyone else. What do you think life will be like for blacks in the Confederacy 2.0? Are they and their descendents just SOL because of a vote?
gettysburg address said:
Allowing states to secede from the Union because they don't want to support civil rights is not just a betrayal of our commitment to civil rights, but fatally wounds the federal government's ability to enact policies that protect civil rights over the arguments of state governments. It would be the end of the American experiment.
That's literally the whole point of the Civil War, come on.
The federal government wouldn't be violent, they'd just show up and start taking tax dollars and arresting people for federal crimes and stuff.
If the state government is willing to just go along with that then they can call themselves independent all they want.
If they're not willing to go along with that, then they'd have to violently resist the federal government.
To the point as to peaceful return of American military equipment, please see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_Sumter
I am actually super impressed, if this is not actually a troll, with your ability to literally recapitulate the entire Civil War from first principles. I kind of want to keep going and see if we can get all the way to Gettysburg.
AntraxSuicide
Banned
Yeah, I might get the point if we were talking about MS or AL, but TX is a huge part of our country's economy and structure. It would be much easier to just arrest their governor, say "it's unconstitutional to leave, duh," and then just deal with any other silliness.
Edit:
I thought they weren't Americans!
Spoiled Milk
Banned
I imagine a region inundated with politicians who almost literally jerk themselves off on our Constitution would retain a version for themselves and start from there.
They're Americans even if they leave, for ethical considerations.I thought they weren't Americans!
Obviously the first step to prevent a state from succeeding is not bombing them, but it's not like the options during such an event would be: a) bomb them or b) let them leave, there actually are other options
I'm super impressed people fall for his posts every time!
I'm super impressed people fall for his posts every time!
Actually bombing a state would be a very good first step to stop them succeeding.
I hate to split that particular hair, but those people would no longer identify themselves as americans!
Now that is beyond the pale!
How can a set of ethical considerations be dependent on arbitrary country lines?
metalslimer
Member
If it mean protecting the rights of all the different minorities I would gladly support puttinf down any kind of insurrection
Spoiled Milk
Banned
I certainly agree that there are other options. Pigeon proposed that the US would absolutely go to war with Texas. I would be shocked.
Isn't this what the Russians said when they invaded Crimea? To protect the Russian minority from those nasty, racists Ukrainians?
User 463088
Banned
Except Texas is already part of the US?
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
We need to spend more time discussing Civil War revisionism with a troll character.
Spoiled Milk
Banned
The history of Crimea and Ukraine is far more complicated than you let on.
I'm not talking about the Civil War, and there is no slavery anymore. I would never defend the Confederacy.
Voysa Reezun
Banned
You would abandon countless black, Latino, gay, trans, etc. people who live in these regions and call it their home? What if those folks don't want to be re-patriated?
Your argument that the south is cultural conservatives, racists, and gun lunatics and that's about it is absurd. Look at a state like MS, for example, with a large black minority population. You think you can re-patriate all of them? You think they all want to leave their homes? Do you want to leave them at the mercy of a regressive modern confederate government? We need to change these places for the better from within the union, not abandon them because a few nutbars vote yes on a referendum to secede or whatever.
I'm sorry that I took the bait, but these posts are so absurd that I couldn't help myself.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
He's right on this one, though. Again, I'm having to point out that a large number of racial minority communities and second-generation immigrant communities voted for Leave; you can't simply apply the American perspective to this and expect it to work. There was obviously xenophobia in this campaign; but there was also an incredibly sharp class divide that transcended typical political alignments. Higher-income brackets voted Remain, lower-income brackets voted Leave - because they've not seen any of the gains from free trade or globalization. It's just lead to their skills being devalued by an influx of foreign labour, and their industries going under because they can't compete with cheap labour abroad.
There's more to it than that - this would never have been a problem if the proceeds of free trade had been used to support these communities, provide them with new jobs. I've lived in north Wales; the place is still destitute since Thatcher killed the mining communities and that was three decades ago. But the key point that remains is that the current political echelons have overseen a thirty year decline in the living standards of the old industrial class; and they're lashing out. Anger and despair don't take the form of a nicely worded argument full of logical links and well-supported data. It takes the form of an establishment put to the sword, regardless of their provenance.
It's not that it's better to be racist for x reason vs y reason or something like that though, it's just that we have to understand all the reasons behind something or else we can't properly figure out how to fix it. Just going "yeah well they're racist" without being critical of the economic environment allows liberals to wash their hands of the situation and act like telling people "stop being racist" is going to solve anything. Although you understand that already!
As for Texas, I don't think anyone would want to bomb them, but if they became a literal military insurrectionary movement? Well, do what's necessary. That's war. Exhaust all other options first but don't let a bunch of racist traitors break off to form their own government and give anyone else ideas. Now if Texas presented their case to the country and a referendum were held and a supermajority of the other states agreed to let them go, then whatever.
User 463088
Banned
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/majority-pac-rob-portman-social-security
This anti-Portman ad makes me happy...especially considering my front yard is full of those fucking bugs.
This anti-Portman ad makes me happy...especially considering my front yard is full of those fucking bugs.
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