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PoliGAF 2016 |OT7| Notorious R.B.G. Plans NZ Tour

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C

CCS

Banned
Crab said:
He's right on this one, though. Again, I'm having to point out that a large number of racial minority communities and second-generation immigrant communities voted for Leave; you can't simply apply the American perspective to this and expect it to work. There was obviously xenophobia in this campaign; but there was also an incredibly sharp class divide that transcended typical political alignments. Higher-income brackets voted Remain, lower-income brackets voted Leave - because they've not seen any of the gains from free trade or globalization. It's just lead to their skills being devalued by an influx of foreign labour, and their industries going under because they can't compete with cheap labour abroad.

There's more to it than that - this would never have been a problem if the proceeds of free trade had been used to support these communities, provide them with new jobs. I've lived in north Wales; the place is still destitute since Thatcher killed the mining communities and that was three decades ago. But the key point that remains is that the current political echelons have overseen a thirty year decline in the living standards of the old industrial class; and they're lashing out. Anger and despair don't take the form of a nicely worded argument full of logical links and well-supported data. It takes the form of an establishment put to the sword, regardless of their provenance.
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You could argue it's about class, or education level. Either is born out by the data.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
CCS said:
You could argue it's about class, or education level. Either is born out by the data.
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They're the same thing in the modern era, really. Tertiary education is a prerequisite to white-collar jobs.
 
C

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
Crab said:
He's right on this one, though. Again, I'm having to point out that a large number of racial minority communities and second-generation immigrant communities voted for Leave; you can't simply apply the American perspective to this and expect it to work. There was obviously xenophobia in this campaign; but there was also an incredibly sharp class divide that transcended typical political alignments. Higher-income brackets voted Remain, lower-income brackets voted Leave - because they've not seen any of the gains from free trade or globalization. It's just lead to their skills being devalued by an influx of foreign labour, and their industries going under because they can't compete with cheap labour abroad.

There's more to it than that - this would never have been a problem if the proceeds of free trade had been used to support these communities, provide them with new jobs. I've lived in north Wales; the place is still destitute since Thatcher killed the mining communities and that was three decades ago. But the key point that remains is that the current political echelons have overseen a thirty year decline in the living standards of the old industrial class; and they're lashing out. Anger and despair don't take the form of a nicely worded argument full of logical links and well-supported data. It takes the form of an establishment put to the sword, regardless of their provenance.
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Shh, don't spoil the self-righteous, black and white, I'm good they are bad easy narrative people want to believe. :D

sphagnum said:
It's not that it's better to be racist for x reason vs y reason or something like that though, it's just that we have to understand all the reasons behind something or else we can't properly figure out how to fix it. Just going "yeah well they're racist" without being critical of the economic environment allows liberals to wash their hands of the situation and act like telling people "stop being racist" is going to solve anything. Although you understand that already!

As for Texas, I don't think anyone would want to bomb them, but if they became a literal military insurrectionary movement? Well, do what's necessary. That's war. Exhaust all other options first but don't let a bunch of racist traitors break off to form their own government and give anyone else ideas. Now if Texas presented their case to the country and a referendum were held and a supermajority of the other states agreed to let them go, then whatever.
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Like, is anyone going to point out the fact that any armed conflict between Texas and the US would involve nukes, and that sooooooooooort of makes every other comparison a moot point?
 
S

Spoiled Milk

Banned
Voysa Reezun said:
You would abandon countless black, Latino, gay, trans, etc. people who live in these regions and call it their home? What if those folks don't want to be re-patriated?
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If a southern secession would lead to federal voting rights legislation, better representation of gay and trans people, action on police violence, criminal justice reform, healthcare legislation, revoking of the 2nd amendment, etc., then I would jettison the South in a heartbeat. Honestly, by your logic, we should annex every country on the planet and impose our moral superiority.
Voysa Reezun said:
Your argument that the south is cultural conservatives, racists, and gun lunatics and that's about it is absurd. Look at a state like MS, for example, with a large black minority population. You think you can re-patriate all of them? You think they all want to leave their homes? Do you want to leave them at the mercy of a regressive modern confederate government? We need to change these places for the better from within the union, not abandon them because a few nutbars vote yes on a referendum to secede or whatever.
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If we can handle repatriating millions of immigrants every year, we can handle a interior migration of some black people and other minorities. I'm pro immigration - the more, the merrier.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
CCS said:
Well then, that suggests an alternative hypothesis.
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I'm reading this as you suggesting that if we gave everyone tertiary education, problem solved? Or have I gone wrong there?
 
P

pigeon

Banned
Cybit said:
Like, is anyone going to point out the fact that any armed conflict between Texas and the US would involve nukes, and that sooooooooooort of makes every other comparison a moot point?
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I definitely agree that control of the nuclear bases would be, you know, pivotal in any sort of actual civil war scenario. There are nukes in Texas but as far as I know the federal military actually has the troops that hang out there.

This whole discussion is really silly.
 
C

CCS

Banned
Crab said:
I'm reading this as you suggesting that if we gave everyone tertiary education, problem solved? Or have I gone wrong there?
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Kinda. Your suggestion is that the government carries the blame for failing these people. My suggestion is that these people carry the blame for not realising that the EU helps them where the government does not.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
CCS said:
Kinda. Your suggestion is that the government carries the blame for failing these people. My suggestion is that these people carry the blame for not realising that the EU helps them where the government does not.
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No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear.
 
K

Kusagari

Member
I would love to see Texit succeed and then the panic once the crotchety baby boomers realize they no longer have social security and medicare.
 
A

Armaros

Member
Kusagari said:
I would love to see Texit succeed and then the panic once the crotchet baby boomers realize they no longer have sociality security and medicare.
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Also all the Federal jobs that move out + Military.

Also RIP normal Lobbying, time to make trade deals like any other foreign country.
 
I

ItWasMeantToBe19

Banned
This really was an incredibly difficult to analyze vote, so many complex views, such depth.

No, it was insanely simple.

Ill-vs-Good-768x757.jpg
 
C

CCS

Banned
Crab said:
No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear.
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That is true.

It's ironic really that Leave won thanks to those who will be worst affected and least able to escape. I voted Remain, but should be fine and could go abroad if necessary. Many in these communities who voted Leave will be considerably worse off and stuck there forever.

I sometimes like to imagine a world where everyone knew what was in the own interest. Not necessarily then vote that way, but at least they knew.

Oh well.
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
Kusagari said:
I would love to see Texit succeed and then the panic once the crotchety baby boomers realize they no longer have sociality security and medicare.
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Oh god, I didn't even think of that. What would they do? Certainly the conservatives in Texas wouldn't try setting up their own versions of these programs?
 
P

pigeon

Banned
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
I mean, it says that 71% of people that think multiculturalism is good voted to stay in EU.

That's a lot.
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Again, it is obvious that if you think immigration is good you will vote to stay in the EU.

That doesn't imply that if you voted to stay in the EU you think immigration is good. Maybe you hate immigration but you hate self-governance even more. There's not enough data.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
CCS said:
That is true.
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It's like the fifth time I've stealth-quoted Burke in this thread. I think benji probably appreciates it, at least. :p

It's ironic really that Leave won thanks to those who will be worst affected and least able to escape. I voted Remain, but should be fine and could go abroad if necessary. Many in these communities who voted Leave will be considerably worse off and stuck there forever.
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I know what you mean. I have an Irish passport and an Oxford degree, I'm personally barely affected by this; but the sense of losing one's community is painful.

I sometimes like to imagine a world where everyone knew what was in the own interest. Not necessarily then vote that way, but at least they knew.
Click to expand...

You're all coming round to my way now. :p
 
C

CCS

Banned
Crab said:
It's like the fifth time I've stealth-quoted Burke in this thread. I think benji probably appreciates it, at least. :p
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I appreciate your literary leanings. I've been more biblical today, I keep coming back to "Forgive them, they know not what they do."

I know what you mean. I have an Irish passport and an Oxford degree, I'm personally barely affected by this; but the sense of losing one's community is painful
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It is this pretty much. I wanted to believe that Britain was at heart a good country, but now I am not so sure.
 
I

Iolo

Member
Kristoffer said:
I'm not a troll. I'm seriously fucking appalled that people here so casually would go to war with an insurrectionist south. What the hell. What the hell. People accuse me of being an authoritarian but this is way beyond the pale.

I thought the whole point of state governments was the ability for states to govern their region in a manner they see fit? With more and more power coalescing into the federal government, cultural conservatives, racists, and gun lunatics are hampering America's steady progression onward. Why on Earth would people here want to preserve a Union of bitterly divided people when we have so much more potential away from this toxic relationship? Is our partisan bullshit, NRA shitfest, and healthcare stalling really fucking worth killing people we have more in common with than anyone else on the entire planet?
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You can be pretty hilarious when you want to, bravo.

There are some people who don't understand that the Civil War was fought over and ultimately settled the fundamental question of the divisibility of the Union, and who suggest the South be allowed to secede if they feel like it, even though it would end the American experiment. Playing devil's advocate is a good way to expose these arguments. "Moral imperative," indeed. ;)
 
R

Roland_Gunner

Member
Crab said:
They're the same thing in the modern era, really. Tertiary education is a prerequisite to white-collar jobs.
Click to expand...

You can't argue that the exit vote is driven by the impacts of globalization and then hand-wave away a stronger correlation with education. If your original argument was correct then there would be data showing that voters with qualifications who have been de-valued would want to leave. Instead these charts suggest that it is education level that best predicts voting pattern with the secondary relationship being that those people are also less affluent.

Cluap64WYAAgnTr.jpg
 
C

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
pigeon said:
I definitely agree that control of the nuclear bases would be, you know, pivotal in any sort of actual civil war scenario. There are nukes in Texas but as far as I know the federal military actually has the troops that hang out there.

This whole discussion is really silly.
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It is, admittedly. Though I think for several of the bases with nukes, the majority of folks will be Texas natives, so in crazy pants scenario, I would assume Texas would get their hands on nukes.

pigeon said:
Again, it is obvious that if you think immigration is good you will vote to stay in the EU.

That doesn't imply that if you voted to stay in the EU you think immigration is good. Maybe you hate immigration but you hate self-governance even more. There's not enough data.
Click to expand...

Indeed. Flawed / false interpretation of data going on.

Kusagari said:
All the minorities below 35% support for Brexit.

I'm shocked. Supporters kept telling me it wasn't just a white people thing.
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Didn't know Sikhs were a minority
 
C

CCS

Banned
"Character is what you are in the dark."

Britain sure as hell showed itself to be small-minded and nationalistic.

The world can survive our little private suicide, but please don't do the same America. We need you to do what we couldn't. Be brave. Be empathetic. Be free.

Thank you.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Roland_Gunner said:
You can't argue that the exit vote is driven by the impacts of globalization and then hand-wave away a stronger correlation with education. If your original argument was correct then there would be data showing that voters with qualifications who have been de-valued would want to leave. Instead these charts suggest that it is education level that best predicts voting pattern with the secondary relationship being that those people are also less affluent.
Click to expand...

I'm not hand-waving it? I'm saying they're one and the same thing. Level of education is a good predictor of class; and the causality runs both ways - better education makes getting a better job more easy, and people from wealthier families tend to get better educations.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
Man, it's actually fascinating that Sikhs were so pro-Leave. I wish I knew enough about UK conditions to understand why that would be.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
pigeon said:
Man, it's actually fascinating that Sikhs were so pro-Leave. I wish I knew enough about UK conditions to understand why that would be.
Click to expand...

Hindus and Sikhs both vote Conservative more than they do Labour. I don't actually know why that is either. I've heard people hypothesize Muslims mostly vote Labour, and the rest is sectarian differences, but I don't know how plausible I find that.
 
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