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PoliGAF 2016 |OT7| Notorious R.B.G. Plans NZ Tour

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I don't want Hillary to keep moving left. I want her to start moving center so that she can attract corporatists and steal business away from Republicans forever. If that means we have to eject our populists and socialists, I'm all on board.

First of all you will never steal those people away forever as if the republican party ever truly lost their business backing they would immediately shift to make up for it. There is no good reason for Clinton to shift anywhere from where she is now. She seems to have found a good medium, and if Warren is on the ticket can provide enough ammo from even further left.
 

ApharmdX

Banned
I don't want Hillary to keep moving left. I want her to start moving center so that she can attract corporatists and steal business away from Republicans forever. If that means we have to eject our populists and socialists, I'm all on board.

Fuck that. That's been the largest part of my problem (and many other liberals) with our party. Plus the moneyed elite are a tiny portion of the actual electorate, as the GOP is finding out now, much to their chagrin.
 

Wilsongt

Member
I don't want Hillary to keep moving left. I want her to start moving center so that she can attract corporatists and steal business away from Republicans forever. If that means we have to eject our populists and socialists, I'm all on board.

At this point, it's for the best. Going hard-core Bernie progressive isn't going to win over those who feel left out of the voting process.
 
Why don't deep blue states just give out IUDs or pregnancy implants for free to 15 year old and 18 year old women?

Cost would be less than the costs of teen pregnancy.
 
Why don't deep blue states just give out IUDs or pregnancy implants for free to 15 year old and 18 year old women?

Cost would be less than the costs of teen pregnancy.
Because my precious daughter would be having sex outside of marriage! /s

I have seen one of them argue they wouldn't let their children have a vaccine for HIV if there was one because it would just encourage them to have sex.
 
Because my precious daughter would be having sex outside of marriage! /s

I have seen one of them argue they wouldn't let their children have a vaccine for HIV if there was one because it would just encourage them to have sex.

Even in hippie states we would care about these things? Can Vermont try it out at least?
 
I agree, but I would never say it! There's a technocratic path to wealth redistribution that ignores the fallacies and lack of plan of the further left. Business also needs to understand that they have to deal with a different tax structure and a significantly higher minimum wage.

Er, I mean, I totally disagree! Rawr!
You would never know it if you stuck around in this forum.

Capitalism and science have demonstrably done so much more to lift people out of poverty and improve their lives than government usually does (there are exceptions) that you really want to stay out of its way as much as possible, modulo keeping it from strangling itself. I mean, just last year we hit under 10% extreme poverty globally, when it was like 35% at the start of the 90s. Holy shit, thanks free trade. People stopped starving to death because of GMOs. Holy shit, thanks science. So we just need to be a little more careful about where all the gains in capital go (just raise taxes a little!) Give some back to the little guy in better social programs and there ya go.

There's no need to ban fracking. There's no need to disparage millyanarez and billyanarez every day. And there's no such thing as "fair trade" because if trade does not exploit comparative advantage then there's no point.

And it's not like businesspeople and execs are opposed to this. Jamie Dimon, the CEO of the largest bank in the world, is a Democrat. We've actually done a lot in the past 25 years to be the party of fact based economics so let's not throw that out the window.

Which is why I thumb my nose at the Robin Hood pastiche communists that are swelling the ranks of the Democratic party. Meanwhile, if we just moved center and forced the main street Republicans to choose between outright racism and sanity... That'd be a realignment I'd kill someone for. I want Mitt Romney and Olympia Snowe in our party if it costs me Bernie Sanders and Nina Turner. Deal me in!

And then Hillary Clinton can start bragging about being a former Wal-Mart executive again, because she was.
 

Ophelion

Member
It's almost like things are interconnected with each other!

Yes, but not all things. No matter how nasty your chosen political dragon is—be it capitalism or racism or globalism or whatever ism grinds your gears—there is no rational reality in which it is the root cause of all evils upon the earth. To believe so is transparently naïve and it invites a person believing such things to become intellectually lazy when examining problems facing society. To do the greatest good, we must be circumspect and diligent. I'll grant, that's not as satisfying as shouting something reductionist like, "The Bankers did it!" or "The Immigrants did it!" over and over and over till people have heard it often enough they accept it must be true. It's quite a bit more honest, though.

I don't want Hillary to keep moving left. I want her to start moving center so that she can attract corporatists and steal business away from Republicans forever. If that means we have to eject our populists and socialists, I'm all on board.

Having read your later post, I now understand better what you meant, but still think it wouldn't be so simple to win over all corporatists forever. By virtue of them being human beings, there's just going to be too many shitty ones more than willing to take Republicans up on the short terms serious gains, long term serious damage model they've been indulging in for ages. Like I said before, I'd also prefer Clinton not pivot at all in the GE unless she needs to in order to win. She has enough problems with people accusing her of being untrustworthy when she isn't doing anything that looks inherently untrustworthy.
 
Fuck that. That's been the largest part of my problem (and many other liberals) with our party. Plus the moneyed elite are a tiny portion of the actual electorate, as the GOP is finding out now, much to their chagrin.

It's the nature of large tent parties like the Democratics. The Leaders always have to be more "centrist" in order to be able to both attract and serve the interest of the constituencies. In order to be successful, the Democrats have to be open to both the lefties and even some of the more sane righties.

Despite Bernie's delusions of grandeur. There is no silent super left wing liberal majority in this country.
 
Why don't deep blue states just give out IUDs or pregnancy implants for free to 15 year old and 18 year old women?

Cost would be less than the costs of teen pregnancy.
Well that's a great idea but I'm not sure which starts are deep blue. I could see NY doing this but California social values are interesting, to say the least.
 
I wonder how general elections where candidates can't pivot due to the internet will go.

GOP guys have to go hardcore to win the primary, but without being able to pivot, that will lead to some problems for them in the general.
 

Effect

Member
I do some part-time EMS work, so I'm stuck with 1-3 random partners for up to 36 hours at time.

New partner today, going on to the group about "intercepted Benghazi emails. She should be in handcuffs. More coverup like her killing Vince Foster, etc."


SEND HELP, GAF.

Kill that conversation right now. Outright say no political talk at all otherwise it's going to be a bad time for everyone. Do not let that continue or it will be hell for you. Lay down the ground rules as soon as possible.
 

Teggy

Member
538 Model is Out!

80%!

wGzIEtY.jpg


Edit: Okay that's Polls-Only, Polls-plus is 73.6%

He was on GMA this morning and it is trending on Facebook. The gymnastics people are doing to discredit him are pretty amazing. "Trump beat all the Repbulicans so this must be wrong!"


Edit: The closest races are AZ, CO, KS, MO, MS, GA, SC, NC !!!!
 

Emarv

Member
Kill that conversation right now. Outright say no political talk at all otherwise it's going to be a bad time for everyone. Do not let that continue or it will be hell for you. Lay down the ground rules as soon as possible.

I'm way too much of a people pleaser for that. My shift is done in a few hours. I'd rather smile, nod and silently making fun of his ponytail on GAF.
 
This whole NA leader press conference reeks of "lolEU, so now who looks like they have their shit together?" Even a "don't go it alone" comment from Trudeau.
 
I wonder how general elections where candidates can't pivot due to the internet will go.

GOP guys have to go hardcore to win the primary, but without being able to pivot, that will lead to some problems for them in the general.

We're you not around in 2014?

Trump can't pivot because even his pivots are racist but tons of rightwingers have pivoted even with Andrew Kaczynski at buzzfeed is wrecking them all.

Voters don't care and don't believe past views if the candidate changes them most of the time
 
Racists with bad hairstyles and absolutely no filter get 30% (isn't this more like 40% at least?) of the vote. But racists who are charming and masters of the dog whistle...
I cannot deny that nixon was racist and said some horrific, indefensible things. (mostly in private to his friends, like 99% of white americans of his time) The only resistance I can muster is that the dude was born in 1913. That was the year before World War 1 broke out. The world was completely different, and insanely more bigoted than the way it is today. Also, he was raised by his quaker mother to be loving of other peoples, and iirc he had a black friend that was under investigation by the fbi for being a communist that he bailed out. He was far more liberal on race than nearly every president that preceded him,and upheld the desegregation of public schools, which was a tremendous thing that liberals would be killed for doing. It was another thing, like going to china, that only someone of his caliber could accomplish. Nixon deserves more love around here
 
It's almost like things are interconnected with each other!

Not talking to you but I think the people who he's talking about aren't really interconnecting things.

Its literally just economics leads to everything. I think you and others can and have articulated this (how these things go both ways and interact) but others are annoying in their ECONOMICS FIRST socialism

I think most of these "socialists" aren't actually socialists and just use it as an identity because the lack others in their sheltered upper middle class life. I mean are hipsters in Williamsburg in their 3k apartments really socialists or just like bernie because its the hip thing to do?
 
I cannot deny that nixon was racist and said some horrific, indefensible things. (mostly in private to his friends, like 99% of white americans of his time) The only resistance I can muster is that the dude was born in 1913. That was the year before World War 1 broke out. The world was completely different, and insanely more bigoted than the way it is today. Also, he was raised by his quaker mother to be loving of other peoples, and iirc he had a black friend that was under investigation ny the fbi for being a communist that he bailed out. He was far more liberal on race than nearly every president that preceded him,and upheld the desegregation of public schools, which was a tremendous thing that liberals would be killed for doing. It was another thing, like going to china, that only someone of his caliber could accomplish. Nixon deserves more love around here

Forced Busing was the court and hasn't ended de-facto segrigation (in fact the court backtracked in Milliken v. Bradley and said you could only do this if there was de jure segregation) and I think its hard to mesh the "he upheld court decisions thus was good on race" with the much more persuasive "he intentionally stoked racial resentment in the population which had much farther reaching effects than feel-good court decisions, and he did this INTENTIONALLY"
 
The whole corbyn thing in the UK is really again showing me why people preaching parlimentary democracy as obviously superior have it rong.

Different systems have their ups and downs but I've always thought separation of powers and amorphous parties were always better than westminster.

Again things are slower here but we don't wreck everything so easily.

(Spain and belgium are another issue with this)
 

Diablos

Member
Man what the fuck us Bernie doing. He's legit pissing off Dems now.

Back to thinking he is going to kick and scream at the convention and threaten a third party bid when he gets mostly ignored
 

kirblar

Member
Man what the fuck us Bernie doing. He's legit pissing off Dems now.

Back to thinking he is going to kick and scream at the convention and threaten a third party bid when he gets mostly ignored
Now? He's been doing that for months and months!
Again things are slower here but we don't wreck everything so easily.
The biggest single fuckup we had isn't even in the constitution (the Fillibuster)
 

pigeon

Banned
I cannot deny that nixon was racist and said some horrific, indefensible things. (mostly in private to his friends, like 99% of white americans of his time) The only resistance I can muster is that the dude was born in 1913. That was the year before World War 1 broke out. The world was completely different, and insanely more bigoted than the way it is today. Also, he was raised by his quaker mother to be loving of other peoples, and iirc he had a black friend that was under investigation by the fbi for being a communist that he bailed out. He was far more liberal on race than nearly every president that preceded him,and upheld the desegregation of public schools, which was a tremendous thing that liberals would be killed for doing. It was another thing, like going to china, that only someone of his caliber could accomplish. Nixon deserves more love around here

This is even more slatepitch than anything Kristoffer posts.

Nixon was great except for one minor problem which is that he completely ignored and stomped on all American political norms, believed all of his opposition was illegitimate and should be oppressed by any means legal or illegal, and attempted at every turn to utilize his power and position to manipulate and control the American political system. He's literally the House of Cards guy.

It's crazy to me that you would complain about the government reading your email and then lionize a guy who sent his political aides to break into a psychiatrist's office to get the private file on a leaker so that he could smear him in the press!
 

pigeon

Banned
Not talking to you but I think the people who he's talking about aren't really interconnecting things.

Its literally just economics leads to everything. I think you and others can and have articulated this (how these things go both ways and interact) but others are annoying in their ECONOMICS FIRST socialism

I think most of these "socialists" aren't actually socialists and just use it as an identity because the lack others in their sheltered upper middle class life. I mean are hipsters in Williamsburg in their 3k apartments really socialists or just like bernie because its the hip thing to do?

I would also note that I think there's a big difference between "socialism will help disenfranchised racist white people to be less racist" and "socialism will magically fix the wealth inequality that comes from racism existing." The latter is the argument we saw a lot during the primary and I think it's straightforwardly wrong. The former is more likely, although it's probably not how I would phrase things when talking about intersectionality.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
The biggest single fuckup we had isn't even in the constitution (the Fillibuster)

That's not actually in the Constitution. You can blame the very first Senate for altering a rule that allowed for the filibuster to come into existence. They figured no one would be a big enough dick to do it, but they were obviously wrong.

EDIT: Damn, misread it >.<

Still, it's a funny story
 

kirblar

Member
Moving it to its own post since it wont be a double post now.
This is even more slatepitch than anything Kristoffer posts.

Nixon was great except for one minor problem which is that he completely ignored and stomped on all American political norms, believed all of his opposition was illegitimate and should be oppressed by any means legal or illegal, and attempted at every turn to utilize his power and position to manipulate and control the American political system. He's literally the House of Cards guy.

It's crazy to me that you would complain about the government reading your email and then lionize a guy who sent his political aides to break into a psychiatrist's office to get the private file on a leaker so that he could smear him in the press!
And yet he offered up a deal on health care the Dems should have instantly taken.

It's ye old "Who should be King of the Dwarves" situation from Dragon Age. Sometimes the better option isn't the better person.
 
This is even more slatepitch than anything Kristoffer posts.

Nixon was great except for one minor problem which is that he completely ignored and stomped on all American political norms, believed all of his opposition was illegitimate and should be oppressed by any means legal or illegal, and attempted at every turn to utilize his power and position to manipulate and control the American political system. He's literally the House of Cards guy.

It's crazy to me that you would complain about the government reading your email and then lionize a guy who sent his political aides to break into a psychiatrist's office to get the private file on a leaker so that he could smear him in the press!

If he believed his opposition was illegitimate, he wouldn't allow the processes of the constitution and state to unjustly remove him, but he did.
As for watergate, at least he was punished for it and admitted what he did was wrong. Now, with Obama, the whole country is under surveillance. I do not seek to lionize Nixon but do wish to highlight his many achievements, which have been locked away by watergate. btw what is slatepitch
 
I am *this* close to changing my VP bet from Kaine to Warren. Trump and his people can't help themselves, and Clinton has admitted that she's keenly aware of this.

(I'll have to look later when I'm home from work..)
It's beautiful how Warren makes then loss their shit. Such a good choice on that quality alone.
 

itschris

Member
I am *this* close to changing my VP bet from Kaine to Warren. Trump and his people can't help themselves, and Clinton has admitted that she's keenly aware of this.

(I'll have to look later when I'm home from work..)

On that note, there's an article on the New Republic today arguing for Warren over Kaine:

Elizabeth Warren Is Hillary Clinton&#8217;s Most Rational Choice for VP

Unlike Bush, though, Clinton doesn&#8217;t want for federal-bureaucratic experience, and unlike Obama, she doesn&#8217;t want for relationships in Congress. Kaine&#8217;s expertise and Clinton&#8217;s are somewhat redundant. What Clinton does lack is media savvy and universal faith among the Democratic base in her judgment. Warren epitomizes both of those qualities.

Kaine is generally presumed to be better qualified for the presidency than Warren, but this is a bit like arguing only one angel can dance on the head of a pin. Warren and Kaine entered the Senate at the same time. And while Kaine governed Virginia for four term-limited years, Warren worked in the federal government for a year as an adviser to Obama and Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner, tasked with standing up the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (an agency that was her intellectual brainchild). She proved to be an able bureaucrat and savvy operator in that role, and used the experience to build a foundation for her successful Senate candidacy.

What Warren lacks relative to Kaine in executive experience she makes up for with a clear, consistent, and progressive ideology. President Kaine would likely be a fine president, perhaps a great one, but his slate is much blanker than Warren&#8217;s. Democrats at the elite and grassroots level know what Warren&#8217;s substantive goals are, and have responded to them enthusiastically.

The fact that Warren really is better than anyone other than perhaps Barack Obama at getting under Trump&#8217;s skin is an added bonus, but an important one.
 
I think Hillary carries Florida and carries it much more comfortably than people probably think (especially given it's past relevance in these elections).

And if Hillary wins Florida, it makes Trump's path to the Presidency super ridiculously unlikely.

Florida is ripe for a big turn blue this election and it's happening, IMO.
 
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