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[TheRedRiders]

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here. Because source code or inference is portable across hardware - nothing new ever gets developd?
Also how do you arrive at 'FSR rebrand' of all the options? That's explicitly an analytical approach (so no inference execution involved) and not using any spectral analysis in its approach. Unless you're arguing that all the leaked information is made up and we should ignore that (but then why are we in this thread discussing things at all - might as well say PS5 Pro doesn't exist).

I don't agree that PSSR is FSR rebranded, I also think the ML hardware might be more custom than the PC counterparts on RDNA 3 and 4. Those leaked documents were technical briefings for developers only, so marketing is a non-factor.

I think Cerny was quite clear on this kind of stuff back during the PS5 reveal.

....We have our own needs for PlayStation and that can factor into what the AMD roadmap becomes. So collaboration is born. If we bring concepts to AMD that are felt to be widely useful then they can be adopted into RDNA - and used broadly including in PC GPUs. If the ideas are sufficiently specific to what we're trying to accomplish like the GPU cache scrubbers I was talking about then they end up being just for us. If you see a similar discrete GPU available as a PC card at roughly the same time as we release our console that means our collaboration with AMD succeeded. In producing technology useful in both worlds it doesn't mean that we as sony simply incorporated the pc part into our console.

 

[Loxus]

There's a world of difference between saying
1) Number of Execution Units * clockspeed * bit-depth... = number.
Vs
2) Operations Per second * Magic made-up number efficiency multiplier = Total Operations per second.
The 'formula' using 'sparsity' is the second one - in case it's not clear.


I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here. Because source code or inference is portable across hardware - nothing new ever gets developd?
Also how do you arrive at 'FSR rebrand' of all the options? That's explicitly an analytical approach (so no inference execution involved) and not using any spectral analysis in its approach. Unless you're arguing that all the leaked information is made up and we should ignore that (but then why are we in this thread discussing things at all - might as well say PS5 Pro doesn't exist).

Made up??????
Zenji Nishikawa's 3DGE: The truth about Primitive Shader vs. Mesh Shader. Geometry Pipeline The Inside Story of War and AMD's GPU Strategy for Gamers

What has changed about Zenji Nishikawa's 3DGE: Radeon RX 7900 XTX/XT? Explore the secrets of the Navi 31st generation, which has achieved significant performance improvements.


Then, let's find the theoretical performance value of AI Accelerator. As an example of AI processing, consider FP16, which is the most common case.
There are 64 WMMAs of AI Accelerator, each of which supports the integration sum of two elements (2 FLOPS) in FP16, so the throughput per clock is as follows.

• 64 WMMA × 2 elements × 2 FLOPS = 256 FLOPS

Figure when executing matrix product (vector in-vector product) using AI Accelerator

Each CU is equipped with two AI Accelerators, and Navi 31 has 96 CUs, so the FP16 theoretical performance value per clock is as follows.

• 256 FLOPS×2 AI Accelerator×96 CU ＝49152 FLOPS

Since WMMA is driven by a GPU core clock, if 2.5 GHz of the Radeon RX 7900 XTX is applied, the FP16 theoretical performance value of the AI Accelerator of the entire GPU will be obtained.

• 49152 FLOPS × 2.5 GHz = 122.88 TFLOPS

Similarly, the Radeon RX 7900 XT is calculated as follows.

• 256 FLOPS×2 AI Accelerator×84 CU×2.4GHz＝103.22 TFLOPS

Examining AMD’s RDNA 4 Changes in LLVM
RDNA 4 carries these instructions forward with improvements to efficiency, and adds instructions to support 8-bit floating point formats. AMD has also added an instruction where B is a 16×32 matrix with INT4 elements instead of 16×16 as in other instructions.

Since SWMMAC takes a sparse matrix where only half the elements are stored, perhaps RDNA 4 can get a 2x performance increase from sparsity.

Here we see AMD has
FP32 = 128
FP16/Int16 = 256
Int8 = 512

We know sparsity gives a 2× increase, so
Int8 dense = 512
Int8 sparsity = 1024

Like Nvidia's.

So if we follow apply the formula for sparsity, it's.

• 1024 FLOPS × 2 AI Accelerator × 60CU × 2.45GHz = 301TOPs

It's how Kepler worked it out.

 

[Loxus]

I don't agree that PSSR is FSR rebranded, I also think the ML hardware might be more custom than the PC counterparts on RDNA 3 and 4. Those leaked documents were technical briefings for developers only, so marketing is a non-factor.

I think Cerny was quite clear on this kind of stuff back during the PS5 reveal.

Cerny mentions a couple of things you seem to not understand.

-Factor into what AMD roadmap becomes.
-Collaboration is born
-Producing technology useful in both worlds

All this implies Sony and Sony are sharing R&D. Both RT and AI/ML fall under everything Cerny talked about above.

 

[TheRedRiders]

Cerny mentions a couple of things you seem to not understand.

-Factor into what AMD roadmap becomes.
-Collaboration is born
-Producing technology useful in both worlds

All this implies Sony and Sony are sharing R&D. Both RT and AI/ML fall under everything Cerny talked about above.

Yes and it doesn't mean Sony simply took the latest/future iteration of FSR and rebranded it as PSSR, nor does it mean Sony simply plonked in AMD's ML hardware and software stack for the Pro.

 

[saintjules]

Who said anything about a gimped GTA6 on PS5? If anything the base PS5 is the target console for GTA6 as that is the device it will sell the most units on at least for some years - dunno how the split will look once the PC version releases. The base PS5 version should be rock solid with the PS5 Pro version building on top of that with extra bells and whistles.

Nobody said anything. I'm saying 'imagine' if there was a gimped version.

 

[EDMIX]

Will probably get Spring 2025 when I have more time.

I want to see how they enhance existing titles though, I have a backlog and want to see what would be improved .

edit. I also want to see how Judgement 3 will play on there

 

[shamoomoo]

Made up??????
Zenji Nishikawa's 3DGE: The truth about Primitive Shader vs. Mesh Shader. Geometry Pipeline The Inside Story of War and AMD's GPU Strategy for Gamers

What has changed about Zenji Nishikawa's 3DGE: Radeon RX 7900 XTX/XT? Explore the secrets of the Navi 31st generation, which has achieved significant performance improvements.


Then, let's find the theoretical performance value of AI Accelerator. As an example of AI processing, consider FP16, which is the most common case.
There are 64 WMMAs of AI Accelerator, each of which supports the integration sum of two elements (2 FLOPS) in FP16, so the throughput per clock is as follows.

• 64 WMMA × 2 elements × 2 FLOPS = 256 FLOPS

Figure when executing matrix product (vector in-vector product) using AI Accelerator

​

Each CU is equipped with two AI Accelerators, and Navi 31 has 96 CUs, so the FP16 theoretical performance value per clock is as follows.

• 256 FLOPS×2 AI Accelerator×96 CU ＝49152 FLOPS

Since WMMA is driven by a GPU core clock, if 2.5 GHz of the Radeon RX 7900 XTX is applied, the FP16 theoretical performance value of the AI Accelerator of the entire GPU will be obtained.

• 49152 FLOPS × 2.5 GHz = 122.88 TFLOPS

Similarly, the Radeon RX 7900 XT is calculated as follows.

• 256 FLOPS×2 AI Accelerator×84 CU×2.4GHz＝103.22 TFLOPS

Examining AMD’s RDNA 4 Changes in LLVM
RDNA 4 carries these instructions forward with improvements to efficiency, and adds instructions to support 8-bit floating point formats. AMD has also added an instruction where B is a 16×32 matrix with INT4 elements instead of 16×16 as in other instructions.

Since SWMMAC takes a sparse matrix where only half the elements are stored, perhaps RDNA 4 can get a 2x performance increase from sparsity.

Here we see AMD has
FP32 = 128
FP16/Int16 = 256
Int8 = 512

We know sparsity gives a 2× increase, so
Int8 dense = 512
Int8 sparsity = 1024

Like Nvidia's.

So if we follow apply the formula for sparsity, it's.

• 1024 FLOPS × 2 AI Accelerator × 60CU × 2.45GHz = 301TOPs

It's how Kepler worked it out.

If those TOPs metrics are real,I don't think all of that performance is coming from the GPU alone. Going by AMD's website, they combine their AI engine plus GPU for total TOPs.


The AI engine on the Ryzen 8955hs has a total TOPs performance is 39 TOPs with 16 of that coming from the AI engine

https://www.amd.com/en/products/processors/laptop/ryzen/8000-series/amd-ryzen-9-8945hs.html

 

[vivftp]

Nobody said anything. I'm saying 'imagine' if there was a gimped version.

Welp then at least we can consider that unlikely. Rockstar won't make a poor performing, stripped down version of the game for the primary platform

 

[Bojji]

Welp then at least we can consider that unlikely. Rockstar won't make a poor performing, stripped down version of the game for the primary platform

You should check out GTA games on PS2 (or PS3 and Xbox 360 even).

 

[vivftp]

You should check out GTA games on PS2 (or PS3 and Xbox 360 even).

They did what they could for the hardware they launched on. Relatively speaking the PS5 is a much more capable piece of hardware so I don't see them launching a poor performing game on the base PS5

 

[Loxus]

Yes and it doesn't mean Sony simply took the latest/future iteration of FSR and rebranded it as PSSR, nor does it mean Sony simply plonked in AMD's ML hardware and software stack for the Pro.

You guys will never understand.

If you guys really do some research, you'll realize Sony and AMD collaborated in creating RDNA as a gaming architecture, and GCN got rebranded as CDDN, a compute architecture.

Road to PS5 confirm this when Mark Cerny talked about collaboration. They collaborated in creating RDNA architecture, which is why he say he didn't incorporated PC parts.

This is why PS5 GFX is 1000 and RDNA1 is 1010. PS5 was created first.

Their collaborated in creating RT. Why would Mark Cerny waste time researching and developing a new AI/ML when they most likely already collaborated in creating the AI Accelerators.

The same leaker, Kepler who first leaked the PS5 Pro specs states it's using RDNA4 AI Accelerators.

Mark Cerny says the PS5 GPU is custom but it's near identical to RDNA1 with RT and cache scrubbers being the only difference.

So the leak saying 'custom' holds no weight.

I don't why you guys can't understand anything and don't even bring sources.

 

[Bojji]

They did what they could for the hardware they launched on. Relatively speaking the PS5 is a much more capable piece of hardware so I don't see them launching a poor performing game on the base PS5

There is no difference really. There was shit ton of 60fps games on PS2, yet GTA games were below 30 (PS3 gen was much worse but GTA 4 and 5 were really terrible anyway). Of course they were more complex than most other games but same is true for GTA 6 (no to mention constant ray tracing).

 

[yurinka]

Yes and it doesn't mean Sony simply took the latest/future iteration of FSR and rebranded it as PSSR, nor does it mean Sony simply plonked in AMD's ML hardware and software stack for the Pro.

Nah, they'd have used FSR branding instead. If they branded it differently it's because they did their own thing.

PS5 has several key differences on how it works when compared to its PC supposedly equivalent counterparts, like how the clock boost works, the shared memory pool, and its way more efficient I/O system. They can adapt FSR, but considering they have this custom setup more optimized for gaming they can make their own implementation optimized for PS with some extra Cerny sauce on top: that would be that PSSR.

 

[yurinka]

Mark Cerny says the PS5 GPU is custom but it's near identical to RDNA1 with RT and cache scrubbers being the only difference.

So the leak saying 'custom' holds no weight.

PS5 has custom (without quotes) RDNA2, not RDNA1. And it's custom because Sony changed or added stuff they wanted to have and removed stuff they didn't need. The way how PS5's APU adjusts its clock speed has nothing to do with the PC way, and it has the shared memory pool with a very unique I/O system to optimize how data is loaded into memory and used by the GPU or CPU.

Here's Cerny saying they did use custom RDNA2 (not RDNA1):

 

[yurinka]

- Sony said they plan to have 1 big tentpole game each holiday, not 1 per year. Prior to that they've stated 2 or more tentpoles per year. This year has games like FF7 Rebirth to act as a tentpole for example.

What Hermen said is that "Each calendar year we -meaning, SIE's 1st party games team- plan to have AT LEAST one tentpole SINGLE PLAYER launch during the holiday season" (12:55 of this video)

3rd party games aren't included there, 1st party MP games wouldn't be counted there, and 1st party AAA SP games released outside the holidays season wouldn't be included there.

So FF7 games aren't included there because they are 3rd party and FF7 wasn't released in the holidays season.

As far as we know the first party SP games they have for holiday 2024 seem to be Until Dawn, Lego Horizon and Lost Soul Aside. Not sure if they would qualify as tentpole, and maybe Lego Horizon doesn't even qualify as SP because it has coop.

Totoki said this year they won't have a major superseller sequel for this year as Spider-Man 2 or GoWR were (notice Lego Horizon is from a major IP but it's a smaller title, not a mainline one). So if they have an unannonced 1st party tentpole SP for this Holidays 2024 would be a new IP.

As far as we know due to timing it could be the "Intergalatic: The Heretic Prophet" trademark they registered in February. And also the timing could match with it being Cory's new IP.

- There is no indication of a switch away from live service games. A few games either being cancelled for various reasons or not greenlit is not an indication of such, that's simply the nature of video game development. In addition to their 3 existing live service games (MLB, Destiny 2, Helldivers 2) there are still 7 to 9 more live service games still being worked on

Out of the 12, we know that:

• They already have in the market: MLB, GT7, Destiny 2, Firewall Ultra, Helldivers 2
• They cancelled: TLOU Online, London's new IP, maybe Deviation's game (if isn't being developed in the secret L.A. SIE new team with ex-Deviations)
• They continue working on many games, some of them to be released after the inicial March 2026 deadline that they nolonger have: Marathon, Fairgame$, Bend's new IP (in case it's GaaS, not enterely confirmed), Horizon Online, Convallaria (seems to be GaaS), Firesprite's MP they have been working for several years (doesn't seem to be the Twisted Metal game that they didn't greenlight, which according to Jason Schreier was in super early preproduction stages), the game from the secret L.A. team of ex-Deviation devs (may be working on the Deviation game, or in a new one)

- Most major tentpoles released after the PS6 launches won't be made exclusive to that console for one simple reason - Sony will want to sell units of games and doing so on a platform that has a very limited user base like a newly launched console is not wise. As always they will strike a balance with some enticing exclusives and plenty of cross gen content for the first year or so while the PS6 establishes itself, then they'll go fully into PS6 only games. This gen just has an extra year or so of crossgen due to the pandemic delaying things.

Very likely in PS6 they'll follow the same strategy they had in PS5: during the first years -not only one- the new games would be crossgen during the first years. The MP GaaS ones would be released on PC (and maybe a few of them also mobile if F2P). The SP non-GaaS titles would be ported to PC around two or more years after their original PS release.

They are very happy with their current strategy: they are selling more games than ever, they are growing in both PC and console active userbase and they are getting record revenue and profits. So wouldn't make sense to make big changes, other than continue that expansion like releasing mobile games and opening their own PSN store on PC and mobile.

I assume something they could use would be to release a PC handheld to reuse their PC game store, and also to use it as PS6's PS Player succesor.

Concord
Little Devil Inside
Baby Steps
Wuthering Waves
Astro Bot
Neon Koi's game
Spider-Man 2 DLC
Lost Soul Aside
Sword of the Sea
Convallaria
Phantom Blade 0
Lego Horizon Adventure
Death Stranding 2 On The Beach
Jason Blundell's game
Matter
Silent Hill 2 Remake
Until Dawn PS5/PC
Project Mugen
ULTROS
AI Limit
Wolverine
DokeV
Crimson Desert
Zenless Zone Zero
MLB25
Marathon
Neil Druckmanns game (new IP)
Fairgame$
Bluepoints game
Horizon Online game (Guerrilla games)
Horizon MMORPG (NCSoft)
Cory Barlogs game (new IP)
Destiny 2 post-The Final Shape content
Horizon Zero Dawn Remaster
One of the two game-type metaverse titles Jim Ryan mentioned
Bloodborne PS5/PC
Meteora: The Race Against Space Time
Fishbowl
Mukti
Requital: Gates of Blood
Suri: The Seventh Note
Spider-Man smaller title ala Miles Morales (probably Venom)
MLB26
Ghost of Tsushima 2
Housemarque new IP
Gravity Rush Collection PS5/PC
LEGO Horizon Adventure 2 (Forbidden West)
Jak & Daxter remaster/remake of some sort (assuming there is a movie)
Media Molecules next game
Uncharted (ND/VASG collab)
KOTOR
Bend new IP
Gran Turismo 8
Dark Narrative from Firesprite
Horizon 3
Final Fantasy 7 part 3
Ember Lab XDEV game
Sumo Digital game
God of War next mainline entry
MLB27
Havens next game after Fairgame$
Ratchet & Clank sequel to Rift Apart
From Software XDEV game
Ghost of Tsushima Legends 2
Team Asobi game (another one)
Ballistic Moon game
MLB28
Project Ooze
One of the two game-type metaverse titles Jim Ryan mentioned
Project Awakening
TLOU Part 3
Spider-Man 3
MLB29
Physint

Good list, even if several of them aren't first party. A few corrections:

• There's no "Bluepoint game": they moved from being a remasters/remake team to be a support team in new games, being GoWR the first one after Demon's Souls. They don't have enough game designers, they have no game director, they have a limited amount of programmers... they don't have enough people to lead their own new game. And Sony recently labeled them as "partner" team, grouping them with their support teams and not with the teams who lead SP games or GaaS/MP games.
• Guerilla is oficially also working on the third mainline Horizon, which isn't their Horizon Online ("Hunters Gathering") project.
• Firesprite job offers from recent years mentioned they are working on a horror adventure and in a multiplayer game that features combat, both on foot and on vehicle. They worked for years in that MP game, so I'd say can't be the Twisted Metal in very early preproduction stage that Jason said wasn't greenlighted/"cancelled".

 

[Fafalada]

Made up??????
...
Since SWMMAC takes a sparse matrix where only half the elements are stored

My comment was 'only' in reference to this bit - I don't know what the rest of the word salad was for.
For 2x to hold true - all matrices would need to be half-full, and also of the class where converting to dense representation isn't an option.

To go back to my original point - there's 'effective computation' claims (which are standard practice for PR statements, like NVidia's), and then there's 'actual computation'. Developer docs will typically steer clear of 'effective' numbers because those are usually not relevant to a developer - where most don't give a damn about 'effective TOPs rating' just the actual performance numbers on a given data-set. And Sony's leak was from developer docs - so I doubt they'd resort to that, or at least they'd 'explicitly' specify it as such.

 

[Markio128]

Wow, there’s a proper nerd-off going down in here.

 

[vivftp]

What Hermen said is that "Each calendar year we -meaning, SIE's 1st party games team- plan to have AT LEAST one tentpole SINGLE PLAYER launch during the holiday season" (12:55 of this video)

3rd party games aren't included there, 1st party MP games wouldn't be counted there, and 1st party AAA SP games released outside the holidays season wouldn't be included there.

So FF7 games aren't included there because they are 3rd party and FF7 wasn't released in the holidays season.

As far as we know the first party SP games they have for holiday 2024 seem to be Until Dawn, Lego Horizon and Lost Soul Aside. Not sure if they would qualify as tentpole, and maybe Lego Horizon doesn't even qualify as SP because it has coop.

Totoki said this year they won't have a major superseller sequel for this year as Spider-Man 2 or GoWR were (notice Lego Horizon is from a major IP but it's a smaller title, not a mainline one). So if they have an unannonced 1st party tentpole SP for this Holidays 2024 would be a new IP.

As far as we know due to timing it could be the "Intergalatic: The Heretic Prophet" trademark they registered in February. And also the timing could match with it being Cory's new IP.

While I don't believe Astro Bot s going into its launch as a "tent pole" I do think Sony is confident that it will achieve "tent pole" status post-launch. It could also be that this year things just didn't work out perfectly as expected, and this mandate will happen starting next year, we can't really be certain. So yes they'll have a tentpole each holiday, but they'll have many more tentpoles throughout the year, both from first party, XDEV and third parties.

Out of the 12, we know that:

• They already have in the market: MLB, GT7, Destiny 2, Firewall Ultra, Helldivers 2
• They cancelled: TLOU Online, London's new IP, maybe Deviation's game (if isn't being developed in the secret L.A. SIE new team with ex-Deviations)
• They continue working on many games, some of them to be released after the inicial March 2026 deadline that they nolonger have: Marathon, Fairgame$, Bend's new IP (in case it's GaaS, not enterely confirmed), Horizon Online, Convallaria (seems to be GaaS), Firesprite's MP they have been working for several years (doesn't seem to be the Twisted Metal game that they didn't greenlight, which according to Jason Schreier was in super early preproduction stages), the game from the secret L.A. team of ex-Deviation devs (may be working on the Deviation game, or in a new one)

They don't seem to count GT7 as a live service, at least they haven't on previous slides. It's a bit questionable whether they count Firewall Ultra too, they could just view it as a multiplayer game rather than live service.

Yup, those 3 would be in the "cancelled" pile and in the "not greenlit" pile it looks like we can include Twisted Metal and the Spider-Man live service games.

Bends new IP seems to have MP elements, but no evidence of it being a live service as of right now. For the remaining live service games I'd list:

Marathon
Fairgame$
Concord
Project Gummy Bear and/or Matter
Destiny 3 (maybe)
Horizon Online by Guerrilla
Horizon MMO by NCSoft
Jason Blundell's team (the L.A. team you referenced)

So yup, no sign that they're reversing course on live service games, they're still full steam ahead.

Convallaria is published by SIE, but not an owned IP.

Very likely in PS6 they'll follow the same strategy they had in PS5: during the first years -not only one- the new games would be crossgen during the first years. The MP GaaS ones would be released on PC (and maybe a few of them also mobile if F2P). The SP non-GaaS titles would be ported to PC around two or more years after their original PS release.

They are very happy with their current strategy: they are selling more games than ever, they are growing in both PC and console active userbase and they are getting record revenue and profits. So wouldn't make sense to make big changes, other than continue that expansion like releasing mobile games and opening their own PSN store on PC and mobile.

I assume something they could use would be to release a PC handheld to reuse their PC game store, and also to use it as PS6's PS Player succesor.

There are rumors of a new handheld from Sony that can play PS4 games and select PS5 games that've been ported. Whether that's real or not, we'll have to wait and see.

As far as the cross-gen period goes, this gen it was only supposed to be the first year and then it'd be current gen only from 2022 onwards (at least for first party). The pandemic extended that, but yeah I expect next gen it'll be about 1 year of cross-gen and then they'll do PS6 only games. The live service games would likely remain cross gen just due to the nature of what they are and requiring a larger user base.

Good list, even if several of them aren't first party. A few corrections:

• There's no "Bluepoint game": they moved from being a remasters/remake team to be a support team in new games, being GoWR the first one after Demon's Souls. They don't have enough game designers, they have no game director, they have a limited amount of programmers... they don't have enough people to lead their own new game. And Sony recently labeled them as "partner" team, grouping them with their support teams and not with the teams who lead SP games or GaaS/MP games.
• Guerilla is oficially also working on the third mainline Horizon, which isn't their Horizon Online ("Hunters Gathering") project.
• Firesprite job offers from recent years mentioned they are working on a horror adventure and in a multiplayer game that features combat, both on foot and on vehicle. They worked for years in that MP game, so I'd say can't be the Twisted Metal in very early preproduction stage that Jason said wasn't greenlighted/"cancelled".

Thanks. Yeah, the list isn't meant to be first party or SIE published only, it's meant to represent all the console exclusives (timed or otherwise) that we know of and SIE published stuff.

A Bluepoint rep tweeted just about a week or so ago that they are still working on an original title, so yes there is a "Bluepoint game"

For Guerrilla, I do have their Horizon Online game as well as Horizon 3 listed. I see both landing in the next 5.5 years. Horizon Online's been in dev about 6 years now so it should be coming out relatively soon. Horizon 3 was originally supposed to release in 2021 but got delayed to 2022, which would mean it was supposed to take 4 years to develop. Since Horizon FW came out in 2022, I think that gives them ample time to get the third game out before the end of 2029

Firesprites horror game has many folks think it's Until Dawn 2, but we'll have to wait and see. Others think that the Ballistic Moon game could be UD2. It's very possible they've got another game in development that wasn't Twisted Metal, we'll have to wait and see. I'd probably wanna wait for more leaks or news before adding anything else to my list.

 

[Loxus]

PS5 has custom (without quotes) RDNA2, not RDNA1. And it's custom because Sony changed or added stuff they wanted to have and removed stuff they didn't need. The way how PS5's APU adjusts its clock speed has nothing to do with the PC way, and it has the shared memory pool with a very unique I/O system to optimize how data is loaded into memory and used by the GPU or CPU.

Here's Cerny saying they did use custom RDNA2 (not RDNA1):

Well, if you took in my whole post, you'll realize PS5 was developed before RDNA1.

It's kind of in it's own category of the RDNA architecture imo.

Also, custom just means built according to someone's special requirements.

Here, we see the ML capabilities are from the GPU.

In this case, AMD makes the GPU that is going in to the PS5 Pro with collaborated efforts from Sony.

We know AMD RDNA architecture has AI Accelerators which is capable of ML, so the PS5 Pro is most likely using those AI Accelerators.

Looking at PS4, PS4 Pro and PS5 custom GPUs, the custom part would be the amount of AI Accelerators, clock speed and the features of those AI Accelerators.
 
I don't know where the notion that custom means exclusive proprietary hardware is coming from.

 

[lh032]

You should check out GTA games on PS2 (or PS3 and Xbox 360 even).

I don't tHibk is a fair comparison tbh,diff architecture , consumer taste and demand changing and tech advancement .

Most of previous gen games are 30 fps and now most games are getting performance mode ,including those that launched with 30fps only like Starfield and plagues tale . Even games like dragon dogma 2 is getting better performance improvement by the devs

 

[Unknown?]

The PS4 pro was worth it for a single game that was just "less broken" on it which shouldn't have been broken in the first place? Your standards for what is a worthy hardware upgrade are a fucking mess, just leave us all alone.

That's the standard for PC gamers everywhere, not uncommon.

 

[yurinka]

Well, if you took in my whole post, you'll realize PS5 was developed before RDNA1.

It's kind of in it's own category of the RDNA architecture imo.

Yes, it's kind of in its own category because it's custom, meaning it's different because it has changes introduced/requested by Sony made just for them.

And it's a custom RDNA2. An RDNA2 where Sony changed, added and removed the stuff they considered.

 

[yurinka]

While I don't believe Astro Bot s going into its launch as a "tent pole" I do think Sony is confident that it will achieve "tent pole" status post-launch. It could also be that this year things just didn't work out perfectly as expected, and this mandate will happen starting next year, we can't really be certain. So yes they'll have a tentpole each holiday, but they'll have many more tentpoles throughout the year, both from first party, XDEV and third parties.

Yes, I think that out of the three categories Astro fits more into "experimental", which they mentioned as:
-Showcase innovation, unlock new audiences, target new genres
-High potential games, with discipline on scope and budget

I don't see them confident with it to consider it tentpole and I assume, it had a relatively low budget and I assume they don't aim for huge sales. I see it as something to research new usages of the DualSense and also trying to have another platformer series with hopefully around 5M+ sales, in the level of Ratchet or a bit above it.

Definetively I don't think they see it as the SP AAA game that sells 15M+ units. And yes, this year as a whole, not only in holidays season, as usual they'll have many tentpole SP games from both 1st and 3rd party, plus now also "transformational" MP/GaaS bangers not only in 3rd party, but also in 1st party.

They don't seem to count GT7 as a live service, at least they haven't on previous slides.

Of course they consider it a live service because it's a live service. They consider it both a live service and single player, a "multi-genre".

The thing is that in a table where they had in a column a few games that were MP GaaS and in other column a few games that were only SP non-GaaS there wasn't a place for it, it made more sense to include other examples that represented better each column.

It doesn't make sense to think that at all the many GaaS that weren't in the old slides aren't considered GaaS by Sony. In the same way that doesn't make sense to think that all the many non-GaaS SP games that weren't on that slide aren't considered SP game by Sony. That would be non-sensical. They were obviously just slides with a few examples, not an exhaustive list of all the IPs they had inside each group.

It's a bit questionable whether they count Firewall Ultra too, they could just view it as a multiplayer game rather than live service.

You may not like the game and maybe wasn't successful, but it was a live service game. Just like Destruction All Stars.

Yup, those 3 would be in the "cancelled" pile and in the "not greenlit" pile it looks like we can include Twisted Metal and the Spider-Man live service games.

Yes

Bends new IP seems to have MP elements, but no evidence of it being a live service as of right now. For the remaining live service games I'd list:

The official data says it's an open world new IP built on top of concepts they had from Days Gone. They originally wanted to add MP there, and later left it hopefully for the sequel. So maybe rehashed it here.

We saw references to both MP elements and live service elements in job offers. But who knows.

Marathon
Fairgame$
Concord
Project Gummy Bear and/or Matter
Destiny 3 (maybe)
Horizon Online by Guerrilla
Horizon MMO by NCSoft
Jason Blundell's team (the L.A. team you referenced)

So yup, no sign that they're reversing course on live service games, they're still full steam ahead.

Convallaria is published by SIE, but not an owned IP.

There are rumors of a new handheld from Sony that can play PS4 games

Yes, there's also people who says that the earth is flat. I give them both 0% credibility. What it would make sense would be to make a PC handheld to run their PC games (which would include many of their PS4 and PS5 games).

As far as the cross-gen period goes, this gen it was only supposed to be the first year and then it'd be current gen only from 2022 onwards (at least for first party). The pandemic extended that, but yeah I expect next gen it'll be about 1 year of cross-gen and then they'll do PS6 only games. The live service games would likely remain cross gen just due to the nature of what they are and requiring a larger user base.

No, in the "we believe in generations" interview (as I remember from a few months after release) Jim Ryan said they were going to continue supporting PS4 during several years.

It doesn't make sense to spend a budget of multiple hundreds of millions in games published only on a console with a few millions of userbase. In fact, AAA games being published these years took around 5-9 years to be developed. Meaning, many of them started as PS4 only games because during its first years didn't have access and didn't even know what technology was going to have the PS5 because still didn't exist. And later down the road they made an improved version for PS5.

A Bluepoint rep tweeted just about a week or so ago that they are still working on an original title, so yes there is a "Bluepoint game"

Absolutely never anyone from Sony or Bluepoint ever said that they are leading their own new game after Demon's Souls.

They always said -including this guy you mention- to be working (never said leading) on 'original content', an 'original game' or 'original title'. Same words they were using when all their entire team was working on GoWR. Being as Sony called them, a "partner" (support) studio.

Firesprites horror game has many folks think it's Until Dawn 2, but we'll have to wait and see. Others think that the Ballistic Moon game could be UD2. It's very possible they've got another game in development that wasn't Twisted Metal, we'll have to wait and see. I'd probably wanna wait for more leaks or news before adding anything else to my list.

I think it's Until Dawn 2 -maybe codeveloped with Ballistic Moon- because Firesprite hired many former Supermassive people, and because they are making this unneeded Until Dawn remake.

 

[rkofan87]

I mean imagine seeing a gimped GTA 6 on a base PS5. Weird to say it that way when we believe a base PS5 should have been more than enough to run most things this gen.

its sad that 2077 development is done a final patch for ps5 pro.

 

[SonGoku]

If those TOPs metrics are real,I don't think all of that performance is coming from the GPU alone. Going by AMD's website, they combine their AI engine plus GPU for total TOPs.


The AI engine on the Ryzen 8955hs has a total TOPs performance is 39 TOPs with 16 of that coming from the AI engine

https://www.amd.com/en/products/processors/laptop/ryzen/8000-series/amd-ryzen-9-8945hs.html

That only applies to laptop APUs with NPU blocks intended for power efficiency when not running the iGPU extensively, it would be a waste of die space for Sony to go with a NPU instead of just AI units integrated into the GPU. So i think its fairly safe to assume the TOP number is from the GPU only

 

[ChiefDada]

So the leak saying 'custom' holds no weight.

I don't why you guys can't understand anything and don't even bring sources.

The quote is "fully custom" and I only mention because it does make a difference imo. Again, why go out of their way to rebrand PSSR but not do the same with the new RT capabilities? But hey, we'll see soon enough. Time is going by fast I can't believe it's already July.

There isn't going to be any major differences that would stop PSSR from running on PC, which is why I believe PSSR is just Sony rebranding FSR on PlayStation.

If that's the case then why would sony include the sentence comparing PSSR inputs to DLSS and FSR? That just sounds weird.

 

[Loxus]

Yes, it's kind of in its own category because it's custom, meaning it's different because it has changes introduced/requested by Sony made just for them.

And it's a custom RDNA2. An RDNA2 where Sony changed, added and removed the stuff they considered.

Besides the cache scrubbers what other changes were done to the GPU that makes you call it custom?

Note: the IO Complex is not part of the GPU, as seen below.

 

[shamoomoo]

That only applies to laptop APUs with NPU blocks intended for power efficiency when not running the iGPU extensively, it would be a waste of die space for Sony to go with a NPU instead of just AI units integrated into the GPU. So i think its fairly safe to assume the TOP number is from the GPU only

Interesting? I'm not an engineer,but if there wasn't an increase of the die size,why not have a NPU?

I say that because there doesn't seem to be a substantial increase of AMD's APUs with an NPU bolted on.

 

[Loxus]

The quote is "fully custom" and I only mention because it does make a difference imo. Again, why go out of their way to rebrand PSSR but not do the same with the new RT capabilities? But hey, we'll see soon enough. Time is going by fast I can't believe it's already July.



If that's the case then why would sony include the sentence comparing PSSR inputs to DLSS and FSR? That just sounds weird.

Doesn't sound weird if it's a rebrand.

And the fact that Sony says inputs are quite similar to FSR means their talking about the software side.

Rebranded is easy to understand if you think as it as FSR for Sony API.

 

[Markio128]

Me reading this thread..

 

[Perrott]

There is no difference really. There was shit ton of 60fps games on PS2, yet GTA games were below 30 (PS3 gen was much worse but GTA 4 and 5 were really terrible anyway). Of course they were more complex than most other games but same is true for GTA 6 (no to mention constant ray tracing).

You keep bringing up 20 year-old examples. Their last game, Red Dead Redemption 2, ran beautifully at PS4's native 1080p resolution and at rock-solid 30FPS most of the time.

The PS5 version of GTA VI will be fine - if anything, I'd be concerned about Series S due to its split memory pool and 2.5x times less powerful GPU.

 

[Perrott]

Bends new IP seems to have MP elements, but no evidence of it being a live service as of right now. For the remaining live service games I'd list:

Bend Studio's game is a live-service, that being why they were in the "evolving" category in Sony's latest overview of their first-party studios from their IR Day presentation.

According to a new recruitment advert posted to the studio's website, the team is looking to secure a new lead project manager with "hands on game development experience in leadership roles shipping AAA live-service games".
The role also specifically seeks someone with experience in "redefining studios from traditional 'boxed product' focussed game development into live service development studios in a key leadership role".

Project Gummy Bear and/or Matter

Matter was cancelled in late 2020 and a project that emerged from its ashes was then again cancelled in 2022, as reported by IGN.

Firesprites horror game has many folks think it's Until Dawn 2, but we'll have to wait and see. Others think that the Ballistic Moon game could be UD2. It's very possible they've got another game in development that wasn't Twisted Metal, we'll have to wait and see. I'd probably wanna wait for more leaks or news before adding anything else to my list.

Shinobi602 already made it clear back in February that Ballistic Moon's other game wasn't Until Dawn 2, which is without a doubt Firesprite's dark narrative adventure game, no need to "wait and see" anything:

• Project Heartbreak is a cinematic singleplayer narrative adventure horror game.
• Reportedly set on an island during contemporary times.
• With a writers team composed of Telltale talent.
• Based on an existing Sony property.
• Sony is already bringing back and supporting the Until Dawn IP with both an expanded remake and a movie adaptation.

And they don't have any other project in the works at Firesprite. Following the cancellation of Twisted Metal earlier in the year - which was a project that collapsed due to severe studio mismanagement, lack of direction and of the manpower required to pull it off after about a hundred people departed the studio within the project's last year - and the layoffs that resulted from Sony getting rid of what remained of that team and the VR guys, Firesprite now finds themselves with just enough staff to deliver on Project Heartbreak and nothing else.

 

[Xyphie]

Interesting? I'm not an engineer,but if there wasn't an increase of the die size,why not have a NPU?

I say that because there doesn't seem to be a substantial increase of AMD's APUs with an NPU bolted on.

They are pretty sizable actually. Look up Lunar Lake or Strix Point die shots and you can see the die size requirement of a ~50 TOPS NPU, take that die area and roughly ~6x it for 300 TOPS and it becomes a non-starter. And this is on 3nm and 5nm-class nodes respectively, the PS5 Pro chip could very well end up being 6nm still.

If they had budget for more die area they'd put it into a more powerful GPU rather than a NPU.

 

[SonGoku]

Interesting? I'm not an engineer,but if there wasn't an increase of the die size,why not have a NPU?

I say that because there doesn't seem to be a substantial increase of AMD's APUs with an NPU bolted on.

They take quite a bit of space and are intended mainly for increased battery life on smartphones, tablets and laptops by using a fixed function block for AI tasks leaving the GPU/CPU mostly idle for said tasks.
If the task at hand (gaming) already heavily uses GPU theres nothing gained by going with a separate NPU design for said task instead of just adding AI units to the GPU that will produce more TOPs per die space invested

 

[ChiefDada]

Second only to upscaling resolution output, the biggest application I want to see powered by PSSR is AI denoising like DLSS ray reconstruction. It's a real gamechanger for stabilizing RT effects.

 

[dano1]

All the PC Elites that are talking crap better save up for your next graphics card

 

[DaleinCalgary]

All the PC Elites that are talking crap better save up for your next graphics card

graphics cards are dirt cheap

...if you have stocks in NVDA

 

[dano1]

graphics cards are dirt cheap

...if you have stocks in NVDA

Damn. Good point!!

 

[Mobilemofo]

Can someone do a tldr on what we know so far? Anything solid? Cheers.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

It's using RDNA4 WMMA AI Accelerators.
There isn't going to be any major differences that would stop PSSR from running on PC, which is why I believe PSSR is just Sony rebranding FSR on PlayStation.

Sony collaborated with AMD to make the PS4, PS4 Pro and PS5, they'll collaborate again for the PS5 Pro and PS6.

You are wrong here. FSR is not AI-based reconstruction. So this is only true if you believe sony is not doing AI-based reconstruction.

 

[nial]

Ember Lab XDEV game

Off-topic, but what's up with this?
Also, good job on the list, but it would be better if you didn't include the third-party published games, it just makes the discussion more convoluted.

 

[Panajev2001a]

You are wrong here. FSR is not AI-based reconstruction. So this is only true if you believe sony is not doing AI-based reconstruction.

Sony is rebranding what already runs on PS5?!? It makes little sense unless we are talking about a revamped FSR 4.0 that Sony is co-developing with AMD that does close the gap with DLSS and is AI based.

 

[Perrott]

Off-topic, but what's up with this?
Also, good job on the list, but it would be better if you didn't include the third-party published games, it just makes the discussion more convoluted.

Nothing backed by concrete evidence or well-thought speculation, and the fact that they're porting Kena to Xbox makes it even more unlikely that Ember Lab's next project had been signed as a PS Studios game.

 

[YeulEmeralda]

All the PC Elites that are talking crap better save up for your next graphics card

Already on it. Getting a new PC when Blackedwell 4080 comes out.

 

[TheRedRiders]

Second only to upscaling resolution output, the biggest application I want to see powered by PSSR is AI denoising like DLSS ray reconstruction. It's a real gamechanger for stabilizing RT effects.

I remember reading something Sony's visual department having presentations on ray-reconstruction and ray-upsampling, mind you this is in the visual arts department but it is technology Sony have been invested in then I wouldn't be surprised at all if it finds its way into the Pro and Playstation 6.

 

[AncientOrigin]

Considering PS5 is looking like it won’t be as successful as PS4 due to a number of factors including Covid, manufacturing issues, wars, economy, recessions etc. I doubt the PS5 Pro sells 10% of the overall PS5 user base when all is said and done especially considering it’s probably going to be in the £600 range (PS4 Pro was £450 for comparison).

PS5 also doesn’t have the 2015 - 2018 line up of graphically impressive narrative games that really benefit from more powerful hardware. Even in a fantasy land that the Pro makes every single game 60fps I think it’s a very difficult sell in the reality of the World in late 2024.

Having said that I’ll be there on day one.

You are talking pure Nonsens the PS5 is was more successful than the 4 especially if you consider everything like the price increase.the PS5 will outsell 4 easy.

 

[Fafalada]

I don't know where the notion that custom means exclusive proprietary hardware is coming from.

Yea of course it doesn't - AMD defines their 'semi-custom' designs as anything that makes a selection of their 'architecture buffet' - there's no rule stating that you need any IP components that aren't AMD property on there to make something a custom design.
But that's also the reason why all PS/Xbox AMD based consoles fit into 'custom' bracket - I know internet tech enthusiasts love to eschew 'off the shelf' but it's just not the case - for any of them. Granted - 360 was much more custom than the rest of XBox consoles - but the definition isn't concerned with %s.

As for PS5 - as far as individual custom parts go - there's silicon in there that was inherited from PS4Pro - and that never made it into AMD mainstream hw either (regardless of who owns the IP associated to it). But yes - these are customizations that can be considered tweaks - it's not like any of it is reimagining architectural components. Shuffling pieces in/out/around is 'custom'.
Just like on Series consoles - they made tweaks to cache, added a shader operand, and played around with that odd memory-layout - but that's basically it. But then putting all that on an APU makes it custom by definition even if there were no tweaks - it's chips made for MS alone (the ones that ended up getting resold on PC that DF got, are just leftovers from Series production runs).

However - the reason it's plausible PS5 Pro is more custom than either 'standard' console is that PS4 Pro was as well. Sony specifically took that as opportunity to experiment last time around, so it's not hard to imagine they'd do it again. But to your point - I agree AI acceleration is leveraging GPU execution resources, but that's how everyone's been doing it for a long time now. To what extent that deviates from AMD roadmaps - we won't know for awhile yet.

 

[yurinka]

Besides the cache scrubbers what other changes were done to the GPU that makes you call it custom?

Unlike in PC, in PS5 the GPU is part of a custom APU, isn't a separate thing. It features multiple customizations, some of them related to the GPU.

As an example, the unique way it increases or decreases the CPU/GPU clock depending on the workload is completely different to how it works in PC.

Another very different thing is the I/O management (which also affects to how GPU works):

Note: the IO Complex is not part of the GPU, as seen below.

As can be seen there, the I/O unit is inside the APU, like the GPU and the CPU and works very differently to how the PC equivalent would work.

In this case, it handles the load from the SSD, decompresses the data, which is compressed in the SSD with Kraken doing the 'secret sauce' with a dedicated chip unit inside the APU and handles the shared memory (GPU+CPU) pool while also performing the memory allocation and management between SSD/memory/CPU/GPU in a more efficient way than the traditional PC one breaking multiple traditional bottlenecks.

This helps to bump the speed of the data streaming from the SSD, from the 5GBPS raw speed of the SSD to up to 22GBPS depending on data type (devs said Cerny they wanted at least 1GBPS). Extra speed and memory management more optimized for gaming helps it to make a better usage of the GPU and CPU resources reaching a bigger percent of its theorical limits than let's say Xbox or the PC "equivalent".

Here Cerny explains part of it:


These two customizations (boost type and specially how it handles the I/O) are the main reason of why PS5 performs the same or better than supposedly superior GPUs as it is the Series X.

Other GPU customizations were the Geometry Engine (handles certain 3D related stuff to optimize some common tasks, and also implements primitive shaders) and the Intersection Engine (used for multiple RT usages or 3D audio).

 

[David B]

Sony is proving a point once again. Computing can be different and work better in certain ways. Instead of DirectX, they use custom created graphics from there own made graphics engine. Vulture or something like that I read a while ago. PS5 Pro with 33.5 teraflops was leaked from a youtube guy who's video got copyrighted from Sony so he had no choice but to take it down to avoid a lawsuit of copyright. I will for sure buy the PS5 Pro when it comes out. Microsoft isn't even making an upgrade this time. So Sony has no competition other than PC gaming of course.

 

[dano1]

Already on it. Getting a new PC when Blackedwell 4080 comes out.

Got to get ready for GTA!!