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Destiny |OT37| Everything Old is New Again

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Afrocious

Member
Gaming side has been a hot mess for a while, not sure what is going on over there. It's why I keep coming back here despite not even playing Destiny.

Haha. I'm going to check out off-topic for a bit. I love the star wars hype, but reading about how donald trump provides a platform for white supremacists was fucking...terrifying, to say the least.

I was using the trials AR (Doctrine of Passing) in Elimination last night and it seemed to work pretty well... Dat .04% yo! Mine has a really good roll and shoots like a laser, though.

oooh. What's your roll? I have one and loved it pre-patch for 6v6 games haha.
 

140.85

Cognitive Dissonance, Distilled
I'm still trying to figure out what guns are the most effective in this 'new'/dead meta.

I kinda liked Red Death though it feels weaker. Tried the MIDA but I prefer it to PvE. Couldn't fucking stand Hawkmoon with its range nerf. TLW is better but still feels off.

I don't know if it's my monitor or what but I feel like I'm running around with glue stuck to moon shoes.

Also sniping is still godly, but my body shots aren't hitting, but that could possibly be me missing, which in these cases I kinda doubt.

I hear Nirwen's is fine somewhat. I dunno. What guns have folks been using?

I think one of the issues is that a Scouts strength is long range, but since most people are running snipers, that advantage gets nullified. (As long as they hame ammo)
 

Deku Tree

Member
I got a 320 class item and a 319 primary doing daughters + Oryx with Kadey and crew last night.

FeelsGoodMan.gif

Warlock 317
Hunter 318
Titan 319

As Vaal said, why am I still playing this game?
 

lt519

Member
Haha. I'm going to check out off-topic for a bit. I love the star wars hype, but reading about how donald trump provides a platform for white supremacists was fucking...terrifying, to say the least.

Off-topic is always great for some entertaining reading. The thread about the black market for chicken wings yesterday was where I live. Gaming side has been too hateful lately, people can't enjoy games there. Loved Fallout 4 but there was like an anti-Fallout 4 brigade trolling every thread. Been trying to stick to game OTs and not get sucked in.
 
Wall of text incoming, but there is a tl;dr at the bottom.

It was a good update overall. I liked Urk's section. It does a good job of letting us know what's ahead, while maintaining the surprise. But I do have 3 major issues with Jon's section of the weekly update:

1) The issue isn't about the patch notes not being updated in time. It's about the preview not being updated.

Jon's preview reads with real authority and generated real excitement in the community. But as described yesterday, the numbers were "not ready for prime-time" and "scratch numbers". The fact that the preview didn't indicate this and that they were never updated it is very frustrating. Jon apologized for not getting the patch notes right, which I applaud. I just wish that that was never a problem in the first place.

Also, the unaltered preview notes are still linked to in the actual patch as where you can go to get the philosophy behind the changes. Come on, guys.

(In the past, I've rolled my eyes at DeeJ saying he's needed until the 11th hour to make certain the patch notes were right, as if the patch wasn't locked in place days earlier. Now I get it. My bad.)

2) Doubling down on describing changes in a way that players cannot see in game.

The final section of Jon's post about an exercise in hand waving. I'm not sure how many people understood his example, which brought in fps and magazine sizes which have never been discussed in patch notes before, but guessing based on what I've seen not many. I mean, he never even finishes his example. He begins with hard numbers and then talks about "Feeling" if you use an "exotic". It felt like this:

ntPY750.jpg


If the "base" damage descriptor cannot be seen by players in game and can generate wildly different results than players expect, then it should be abandoned as a descriptor to players. Don't talk about damage inputs to your damage formula. Talk about damage inputs. Bungie actually did this Year 1:

1PZSi4S.png


3) Doubling down on autorifle changes that really aren't changes.


Here is a summary of auto rifle changes to date.

CRc5Hla.png


There are two changes that stand out. One is the time that we didn't get any numbers at all. And the other is the time that the change was significantly closer to 0% than 1%.

Let's discuss magnitude of changes. Within this same patch, pulse rifles were nerfed 14.23%. A change that's 356 times greater. Additionally, in review all weapon balance changes from the beta to date, the smallest change to damage has been 2%.

Let's also discuss how precision changes within the patch notes. We have changes such as 0.04% and then we also have "roughly 5%". Using that same descriptor, autorifles were changed "roughly 0%".

It's also still a bit weird that the final changes are almost exactly 10x or 100x smaller than the preview. Like, we can all admit that's weird, right?

The fact that they're selling this as a buff at all is a bit ridiculous. How hard would it have been to say, "We kept testing and auto rifles are in a good spot when we bring everything else in line?" Or they shouldn't have said anything at all. Make it a stealth buff. Or gone back to the 2.0.0 style of just saying "increased slightly."

Conclusion:
There were understandable mistakes and I applaud Jon for copping to them, but the way that they're being handled isn't helping.

I know that I'm going to treat any weapons balance preview much less seriously going forward. And will probably wait to play things in game, because at the end of the day, that's all I got.

tl;dr: Bungie has bungled expectations (again), gives patch note changes in a way that's not clear to players, and continues to stand by a 0.04% "buff".
 
I've written a lot about Destiny in the past couple days, and I hesitated even posting that huge post just now. Felt like posting it would turn me into a self-parody, but I had it written and I hit post, because why not.

Yesterdays update really deflated me. I would love for Bungie and the community to be thinking about the end game and big things. Instead we're dealing with boneheaded "typos".

giphy.gif


Don't expect any epic posts from me for a while. I'm going to be a lot more casual with Destiny and play some Witcher 3. Cheers, DGAF! Thanks for reading my long-winded posts!
 

E92 M3

Member
Wall of text incoming, but there is a tl;dr at the bottom.

It was a good update overall. I liked Urk's section. It does a good job of letting us know what's ahead, while maintaining the surprise. But I do have 3 major issues with Jon's section of the weekly update:

1) The issue isn't about the patch notes not being updated in time. It's about the preview not being updated.

Jon's preview reads with real authority and generated real excitement in the community. But as described yesterday, the numbers were "not ready for prime-time" and "scratch numbers". The fact that the preview didn't indicate this and that they were never updated it is very frustrating. Jon apologized for not getting the patch notes right, which I applaud. I just wish that that was never a problem in the first place.

Also, the unaltered preview notes are still linked to in the actual patch as where you can go to get the philosophy behind the changes. Come on, guys.

(In the past, I've rolled my eyes at DeeJ saying he's needed until the 11th hour to make certain the patch notes were right, as if the patch wasn't locked in place days earlier. Now I get it. My bad.)

2) Doubling down on describing changes in a way that players cannot see in game.

The final section of Jon's post about an exercise in hand waving. I'm not sure how many people understood his example, which brought in fps and magazine sizes which have never been discussed in patch notes before, but guessing based on what I've seen not many. I mean, he never even finishes his example. He begins with hard numbers and then talks about "Feeling" if you use an "exotic". It felt like this:

ntPY750.jpg


If the "base" damage descriptor cannot be seen by players in game and can generate wildly different results than players expect, then it should be abandoned as a descriptor to players. Don't talk about damage inputs to your damage formula. Talk about damage inputs. Bungie actually did this Year 1:

1PZSi4S.png


3) Doubling down on autorifle changes that really aren't changes.


Here is a summary of auto rifle changes to date.

CRc5Hla.png


There are two changes that stand out. One is the time that we didn't get any numbers at all. And the other is the time that the change was significantly closer to 0% than 1%.

Let's discuss magnitude of changes. Within this same patch, pulse rifles were nerfed 14.23%. A change that's 356 times greater. Additionally, in review all weapon balance changes from the beta to date, the smallest change to damage has been 2%.

Let's also discuss how precision changes within the patch notes. We have changes such as 0.04% and then we also have "roughly 5%". Using that same descriptor, autorifles were changed "roughly 0%".

It's also still a bit weird that the final changes are almost exactly 10x or 100x smaller than the preview. Like, we can all admit that's weird, right?

The fact that they're selling this as a buff at all is a bit ridiculous. How hard would it have been to say, "We kept testing and auto rifles are in a good spot when we bring everything else in line?" Or they shouldn't have said anything at all. Make it a stealth buff. Or gone back to the 2.0.0 style of just saying "increased slightly."

Conclusion:
There were understandable mistakes and I applaud Jon for copping to them, but the way that they're being handled isn't helping.

I know that I'm going to treat any weapons balance preview much less seriously going forward. And will probably wait to play things in game, because at the end of the day, that's all I got.

tl;dr: Bungie has bungled expectations (again), gives patch note changes in a way that's not clear to players, and continues to stand by a 0.04% "buff".


I am more surprised that he doubled-down on the huge pulse rifle nerf as well. That was completely unneeded. At this point, weapon balancing is just going in circles and we're really not getting anywhere.
 

Lnkn52

Member
TY for your post Mars. I appreciate it. You can't blame players for being passionate about a game and wanting it to succeed.


But I'm not going to be excited of having a weapons patch update every quarter anymore. Why do I have to wait another 4 months so they can re balance the game AGAIN.
 
Derek ‏@_mantis_ 18m18 minutes ago
No one will guess this weekend's Trials map, nor will shouting ASYLUM over and over change what is to come.

Bastion or First Light

Was the pulse rifle nerf pve as well? Sorry if it's been asked already

Yep, so now everything's shit in PvE, bar scouts, snipers and HMGs
 
It's taking 5 years to find a single Skirmish match.

Matchmaking slow or game = dead?

I know in our train last night it was fairly slow in Clash as well. It'd kinda be cool to see matchmaking numbers per playlist (How many players currently playing or trying to play, each)
 

Smiley90

Stop shitting on my team. Start shitting on my finger.
Derek ‏@_mantis_ 18m18 minutes ago
No one will guess this weekend's Trials map, nor will shouting ASYLUM over and over change what is to come.

Bastion or First Light



Yep, so now everything's shit in PvE, bar scouts, snipers and HMGs

Crossroads for maximum awfulness
 

LTWood12

Member
Let's discuss magnitude of changes. Within this same patch, pulse rifles were nerfed 14.23%. A change that's 356 times greater. Additionally, in review all weapon balance changes from the beta to date, the smallest change to damage has been 2%.

Let's also discuss how precision changes within the patch notes. We have changes such as 0.04% and then we also have "roughly 5%". Using that same descriptor, autorifles were changed "roughly 0%".

It's also still a bit weird that the final changes are almost exactly 10x or 100x smaller than the preview. Like, we can all admit that's weird, right?

Conclusion:
There were understandable mistakes and I applaud Jon for copping to them, but the way that they're being handled isn't helping.

I know that I'm going to treat any weapons balance preview much less seriously going forward. And will probably wait to play things in game, because at the end of the day, that's all I got.

tl;dr: Bungie has bungled expectations (again), gives patch note changes in a way that's not clear to players, and continues to stand by a 0.04% "buff".

100% agree that it seems like a really odd coincidence that the auto rifle numbers are almost exactly divided by 10 or 100 of what we were originally told. I absolutely believe they fucked up the patch itself but don't want to admit it.

paleocontact > doctrine of passing (adept) ?

http://db.destinytracker.com/compare/1173766591,788816546

glad I held onto this bad boy

Paleocontact is great, but you're not comparing apples to apples. They are two different archetypes.
 

Afrocious

Member
A thought just occurred to me:

Is Destiny dying? I know we talk about Destiny is dad and all, but for real, is the game dying? Shoddy updates with F2P things not explicitly being called F2P...
 
I've written a lot about Destiny in the past couple days, and I hesitated even posting that huge post just now. Felt like posting it would turn me into a self-parody, but I had it written and I hit post, because why not.

Yesterdays update really deflated me. I would love for Bungie and the community to be thinking about the end game and big things. Instead we're dealing with boneheaded "typos".

giphy.gif


Don't expect any epic posts from me for a while. I'm going to be a lot more casual with Destiny and play some Witcher 3. Cheers, DGAF! Thanks for reading my long-winded posts!

I actually like your posts.

You have a great way of presenting information here that doesn't sound like you're just angry and want to vent.

I have a problem of incorporating too much emotion into my text. So when I'm angry, I write angrily. When I'm beat down, I write very depressingly.

You don't seem to have that issue.
 

lt519

Member
JoM

I think that was a good post and I think they are learning how to present information to their players. The shoulder shrug as to why the preview wasn't updated to reflect what they were actually working on was disappointing, but at least it was acknowledged. To me they got that preview half right, the PR section was amazing, showing shots to kill and how the nerf would affect them. The balance they implemented reflected that.

Now onto ARs. I think it's actually important to understand that a percentage change to ARs will have a larger impact than any other weapon due to Rate of Fire. If I have a Scout Rifle that does 300 damage a second and 100 damage a bullet and I want it to do 400 damage a second I have to buff it 33% since it's RoF is three bullets a second. If I have an Auto Rifle that does 1000 damage a second at 20 damage per bullet (~50 clip magazine emptying in a second). To buff it by the same 33% would end up with 333 additional damage as opposed to a scout rifle buff of 33% equaling 100 additional damage over the same period of time. Ultimately DPS is king, or Time to Kill as we call it.

Auto Rifle buffs/nerfs should be smaller because by buffing/nerfing individual bullets the additive affect on Auto Rifles is more than on a Scout Rifle or Pulse Rifle because of its higher rate of fire. My poor example aside, it makes sense that they don't want to throw in a 10% buff on Auto Rifles AND a 14% nerf on Pulse Rifles at the same time. That'd just make Auto Rifles to the new meta and they don't want that. They should however have updated us on their intentions. It is why he brought up Rate of Fire and they've never brought it up before. With something with a really high rate of fire a 1% buff (I know .04 is ridiculous) is much more impactful than a 1% buff then say on a Rocket Launcher.
 
Trials will be chaos this weekend. I've been using my Hawksaw still. People take forever to die it seems. Upping the Time to Kill makes everything feel very muted. Maybe I need more time in the new meta. I will give the grasp I have in the bank a go.
 
A thought just occurred to me:

Is Destiny dying? I know we talk about Destiny is dad and all, but for real, is the game dying? Shoddy updates with F2P things not explicitly being called F2P...

I mean, it's probably bleeding players with all the other stuff that has come out recently, but some of those players will come back (probably not the majority, though).

It's hard to say because we dont' really have a way to measure metrics unless Bungie gives us numbers, but they aren't going to do that.
 

Afrocious

Member
Trials will be chaos this weekend. I've been using my Hawksaw still. People take forever to die it seems. Upping the Time to Kill makes everything feel very muted. Maybe I need more time in the new meta. I will give the grasp I have in the bank a go.

Wait. When the hell did you get a Grasp?

I mean, it's probably bleeding players with all the other stuff that has come out recently, but some of those players will come back (probably not the majority, though).

It's hard to say because we dont' really have a way to measure metrics unless Bungie gives us numbers, but they aren't going to do that.

Yeah, the absence of player numbers is what got me thinking about the state of the game's population.
 

LTWood12

Member
Wow, glad to see even a site like Planet Destiny ain't drinking the .04% Kool-aid

http://planetdestiny.com/auto-rifle-transparency/

Negatives

Even with all of the goodies, there are a myriad of concerns that emerge considering what Bungie addressed and what they did not.

Hand-Waving Away the Numbers
Newsk was keen to zero in on the issue of prompt and clear communication – and truly, the apology and explanation were appreciated – but he stopped short of fully remedying the problem. His problem? Hypotheticals.

In Jon’s explanation for the Auto Rifle changes, we were treated to some rhetoric on even small changes having an impact over time.

“ A small adjustment to an Auto Rifle may not be enough to change the displayed number, but (THIS IS A HYPOTHETICAL EXAMPLE) if your base damage changed from 20 to 20.2, and then you fired that damage value every other frame (at 30 fps) over the duration of a 50 round magazine, you’re actually getting a change in DPS even though the base number still reports as 20 in the UI.”

With all due respect to Mr. Weisnewski, this sort of example is pointless. A hypothetical scenario is a useful tool for elaborating on the concept behind a change – but not the sort of thing you want out in an update, where the numbers stick and can be evaluated by anyone. Even a cursory glance at his example reveals that damage increase to be 1%, and over the duration of a 50 round magazine, not one Guardian in a million would call that anything more than a negligible increase in damage.

No one even uses Glass Half Full to any noticeable benefit these days. Now consider an increase in damage of 0.04%, which is 4% of 1%, and the explanation begins to fall flat on its face. He is framing the argument poorly for the point he wishes to make. When it quickly became apparent Auto Rifles were effectively unchanged, Jon should have focused on framing the lack of action as being cautious with the balance of the meta, rather than doubling down on the changes as working as intended. The frustration continues:
“Specifically for PVP, add precision damage scaling and the barrel upgrades that scale up Impact available on Exotic and King’s Fall Auto Rifles, and you’ll start to feel the new change a bit more.”

What does the community know about precision damage scaling? What specifics have been made clear about the tiny green sliver of damage a barrel upgrade adds? How do we know how these changes propagate into overall damage?

This is sleight of hand to further obfuscate the fact that nothing is really changing. And the funny thing is: the community would probably be fine if Bungie just admitted they wanted to play it safe with Auto Rifles for now. To present these miniscule numbers as a meaningful step towards their design goals for the weapon variant is to willfully insult the intelligence of the playerbase.

“Will that be enough to properly buff Auto Rifles?”
Come on.
 
A thought just occurred to me:

Is Destiny dying? I know we talk about Destiny is dad and all, but for real, is the game dying? Shoddy updates with F2P things not explicitly being called F2P...

Its certainly gone over the edge. PvP is dying with even Crucible playbook turning against it, practically all the top streamers have either given up or on the verge of

After next week they'll be zero reason to run the raid unless you want to chase the 320 dragon, they'll still be two more weeks of SRL so probably no Iron Banner all's we have to look forward to is another FoTL type event with a vague promise of something "big" after that
 
Its certainly gone over the edge. PvP is dying with even Crucible playbook turning against it, practically all the top streamers have either given up or on the verge of

After next week they'll be zero reason to run the raid unless you want to chase the 320 dragon, they'll still be two more weeks of SRL so probably no Iron Banner all's we have to look forward to is another FoTL type event with a vague promise of something "big" after that

i've got a bunch of lighthouse high level primaries that i dont even use for infusion because i have no idea what to expect from the meta these days
 

E92 M3

Member
Trials will be chaos this weekend. I've been using my Hawksaw still. People take forever to die it seems. Upping the Time to Kill makes everything feel very muted. Maybe I need more time in the new meta. I will give the grasp I have in the bank a go.

Yeah, I hate what the nerfs have done to the game. A slow TTK is not fun for Destiny. Sniping still has a lot of satisfaction, though.
 
Wait. When the hell did you get a Grasp?



Yeah, the absence of player numbers is what got me thinking about the state of the game's population.

I've had one for a while. It only has Braced Frame and Third eye tho.

TLW / 1kys

Bleh. Everything will be like Widow's Court now!

Yeah, I hate what the nerfs have done to the game. A slow TTK is not fun for Destiny. Sniping still has a lot of satisfaction, though.

Sniping is just boring to me. I'll keep my shotgun equipped. I've been doing fine with it still. I straight dusted three guys in a row during Rumble this morning with one.
 

TacticalFailure

Neo Member
Was cleaning out the vault last night and found one item for the hunter that will never get deleted. The Frumious Cloak, that description is just too good!
 

Smiley90

Stop shitting on my team. Start shitting on my finger.
Yeah, PVE was affected unfortunately.

Didnt they buff PvE damage at the same time specifically for that?

I really wish we got overall dmg output numbers, the graphic bars mean nothing without it. Something like a "dps" indicator like Diablo.
 

E92 M3

Member
Didnt they buff PvE damage at the same time specifically for that?

I really wish we got overall dmg output numbers, the graphic bars mean nothing without it. Something like a "dps" indicator like Diablo.

They did supposedly, but my Smite is still weaker.
 
A thought just occurred to me:

Is Destiny dying? I know we talk about Destiny is dad and all, but for real, is the game dying? Shoddy updates with F2P things not explicitly being called F2P...

Seems like it to me. All my friends I used to raidx3 with dropped it.
I havent played PvP in over 2 weeks.
Im probably done with SLR and am probably not going to play again til the challenge on tuesday.
Trying to find people to raid with is super depressing. I wake up on reset at 9am and the only 2 or 3 tight Dgaf groups have already raided 3 times, so everyone else who lost their clan or is used to finding a pool of available Dgafers to raid with is stuck with waiting for hours for people to raid with. If that ever even occurs.

The PvP balance changes and the shitty raid just kind of destroyed this game for me and the people I know.
 

Raven117

Member
A thought just occurred to me:

Is Destiny dying? I know we talk about Destiny is dad and all, but for real, is the game dying? Shoddy updates with F2P things not explicitly being called F2P...

For me, all I want is to take down Oryx HM on challenge mode.

After that...well...I guess whenever there is more content out again.

Edit: Oh sheet...I'm top of the page...Well...
Probably the way Destiny is headed until we get some real news of content
anigif_enhanced-buzz-27266-1385053487-9.gif
 
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