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[Panajev2001a]

SFS was a key part of xbox velocity architecture. This technology impressed me a lot five years ago with its potential and tech demos (huge VRAM savings of 2–3x)

It was part of the PR, but it was oversold (they made it look like nobody did use similar technologies before and likely compared it with no partial resident texture / no partial texture levels streaming). Sure, targeting Xbox and PC means targeting one platform that supports it and another one with massive IFs and Depends on top of it (right GPU vs right driver vs absence of performance gotchas).

Apparently there are performance issues / support issues with it (not too dissimilarly from another velocity architecture bullet point like Direct Storage):

but it seems SFS is totally ingored by developers now. The same with mesh shaders (I think only Alan Wake 2 use it?). There was also VRS, which was used in quite a few games, however, I always turned it off because it impacted the image quality, causing pixelation in various areas.

Again, when one thinks about HW architecture the probability features that cost dear silicon budget would have a great impact and would likely get a lot of use by devs need to be at the forefront of your mind.

The summary of this thread is that Cerny's team did an excellent job designing PS5… the more we look at the results and the more people try to take pot shots at the features it does not have, the not true RDNA2-ness, etc… the more you are complimenting Cerny and his team. I do hope people realise that .

 

[Zathalus]

Github was RDNA1
PS5 is RDNA2.
The clock difference is the least important thing compared to the difference between RDNA1 and 2.

The PS5 GPU is a custom variant of RDNA. It has elements of both RDNA1 and RDNA2 as it was developed before RDNA2 was finalised. A lot of the work that went into the PS5 GPU actually helped develop RDNA2. The GitHub leak showed it supported RT as well as much higher clocks, and so it couldn't simply be standard RDNA1. We also now know it doesn't support stuff like VRS as that was likely finalised into the RDNA2 design after the PS5 was taped out. None of those newer features (outside of RT, which the PS5 has) have actually mattered that much so far.

This whole RDNA1 vs RDNA2 debate is rather useless anyways, as outside the difference in feature set and clock speeds the performance difference between the two is minor to nonexistent.

 

[Proelite]

The same with mesh shaders (I think only Alan Wake 2 use it?).

Space Marines 2 also uses it.

 

[Panajev2001a]

RDNA1 is more powerful flop for flop than RDNA2... I hope you know that lol.
also the PS5 lacks basically all RDNA2 features except for Ray intersection hardware.

no VRS tier 2, no Mesh Shaders etc.

VRS tier 2 is not something I would shout from the rooftops, they did not miss much and anyways that is tied to the ROPS, a part they did not pick from the RDNA2 roadmap. Geometry Engine, the CUs, triangle setup, etc… were all RDNA2 (some maybe a slightly earlier revision than what XSX got). When presenting PS5 Pro a point was made about sticking with RDNA2 ISA for the CUs for easier backwards compatibility and not requiring new binaries / lots of new work from the devs. Again, the annoying RDNA 1.x back and forth should have stopped there but some people find any way they can to troll it up I guess. Not sure why it is still repeated in PS6 threads, but fill your boots if you like it.

Mesh Shaders, btw, are a software concept built upon primitive shaders on RDNA2 HW, AMD engineers went on record talking about it: https://www-4gamer-net.translate.go...=ja&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Wang:
The Primitive Shader as hardware has been present in all GPUs, from the Radeon RX Vega onward, right up to the latest RDNA 3-based GPUs. From the perspective of DirectX 12, the Primitive Shader in Radeon GPUs operates as a Mesh Shader.

Again, as I have already said. Looking at how those features got utilised on PC and XSX or rather how some of them did not, you are just complimenting Cerny's choice

 

[Panajev2001a]

I was right about PS5 Pro just like was always right about this. Telling the truth =/= trolling.

Keep telling yourself that . But congrats, you try again with your PS5 is RDNA1, PS5 Pro being above RDNA2 is BS.

Reality is, PS5 lacks most of the stuff that makes RDNA2 - RDNA2... and that's objective reality.

Sure, based on your definition of what makes something RDNA2 based, going against anyone else including the CEO of the company that made the chip or Cerny or scores of other people.

You are trolling because either you just ignored any evidence under the sun or you are trying to get a rise out of people and derail threads. Mission accomplished on the last one I guess .

 

[Bojji]

The PS5 GPU is a custom variant of RDNA. It has elements of both RDNA1 and RDNA2 as it was developed before RDNA2 was finalised. A lot of the work that went into the PS5 GPU actually helped develop RDNA2. The GitHub leak showed it supported RT as well as much higher clocks, and so it couldn't simply be standard RDNA1. We also now know it doesn't support stuff like VRS as that was likely finalised into the RDNA2 design after the PS5 was taped out. None of those newer features (outside of RT, which the PS5 has) have actually mattered that much so far.

This whole RDNA1 vs RDNA2 debate is rather useless anyways, as outside the difference in feature set and clock speeds the performance difference between the two is minor to nonexistent.

More or less the same performance with the same clocks:

I don't get why some people get so riled up when someone mentions that PS5 is not RDNA2, like it some super bad thing or something lol.

Sure, based on your definition of what makes something RDNA2 based, going against anyone else including the CEO of the company that made the chip or Cerny or scores of other people.

That's just classic PR, don't say you believe all the stuff that these people say.

 

[Panajev2001a]

More or less the same performance with the same clocks:

I don't get why some people get so riled up when someone mentions says that PS5 is not RDNA2, like it some super bad thing or something lol.

Do not play the victim and pretend you did know you were trying to rile people up with the old BS about RDNA1, do not be disingenuous like this and own it up.

 

[Loxus]

Hopefully this should put everyone at rest.

Pay attention to the Graphics Core Versions.

 

[Panajev2001a]

That's just classic PR, don't say you believe all the stuff that these people say.

Started a while back with you .

 

[Panajev2001a]

Hopefully this should put everyone at rest.

Pay attention to the Graphics Core Versions.

Slides puts 10.3 = RDNA2, so neither XSX or PS5 is RDNA2 then ? Not sure what we want this user produced table to say. Because it is not making the argument you might think it makes.

Do not put a lot of trust in that mix of sources there to figure out too much about XSX and PS5 (this is not an official slide from AMD, MS, or Sony)… …

 

[TrebleShot]

No one cares about your terflops and terabytes, all we care about is how many PS5s it is taped together.

 

[Bojji]

Hopefully this should put everyone at rest.

Pay attention to the Graphics Core Versions.

10.3 = RDNA2 so both XSX and PS5 are RDNA1 then ? Do not put a lot of trust in that mix of sources there to figure out too much about XSX and PS5 …

5700XT - Navi 10 10.1.10
PS5 - Navi 12 Lite 10.1.4
XSX - Navi 21 Lite 10.2.0
6900 XT - Navi 21 10.3.0

Xbox SX was never full RDNA2 anyway, it lacks L3 cache.

 

[kevboard]

Do not play the victim and pretend you did know you were trying to rile people up with the old BS about RDNA1, do not be disingenuous like this and own it up.

the only one you can rile up by saying the PS5 doesn't have a full RDNA2 gpu, or that early PS5 hardware was RDNA1 are people who don't even know what that means in the first place. so who cares?

the facts still stand. the leaked hardware was real, and the leaked hardware matched the final console in every way except clock speeds.

 

[Panajev2001a]

5700XT - Navi 10 10.1.10
PS5 - Navi 12 Lite 10.1.4
XSX - Navi 21 Lite 10.2.0
6900 XT - Navi 21 10.3.0

User made chart and you are looking at the code name not the GCN core version which was the point you were reacting gleefully to, GCN version puts RDNA2 at one version and consoles at the other version but again it makes zero sense and you know that.

XSX having a closer to release RDNA2 version and PS5 taking some elements from RDNA2 and some from RDNA1 and which ones and how early did not change and you can make it up for debate again to prove some points you have in your head (Sony BS'ed with PS5 and BS'ed with RDNA2+ with PS5 Pro again things you are making up).

You might as well bring back the 9 TFLOPS rumour and the it only supports accelerated RT and not real HW RT support if you want to relive the lost console war trolling era again.

 

[Loxus]

Hopefully this should put everyone at rest.

Pay attention to the Graphics Core Versions.

Source is from AMD drivers.
You can look them up yourself.

The table is from Locuza, he was a member here. He just compiled all the information to make it easier. You can check out his Twitter.

 

[Xyphie]

There's really is no reason to guess. AMD themselves have confirmed that the PS5 GPU (gfx1013) is essentially the same as Navi 10 (+ RT cores) in open source commits (LLVM etc) years and years ago. The only reason this is contested or controversial is because of console wars and the Xbox chips having some newer IP blocks. You can go out and buy a "AMD BC-250" bitcoin miner and see exactly what can and cannot be done with the HW.

 

[TheRedRiders]

There's really is no reason to guess. AMD themselves have confirmed that the PS5 GPU (gfx1013) is essentially the same as Navi 10 (+ RT cores) in open source commits (LLVM etc) years and years ago. The only reason this is contested or controversial is because of console wars and the Xbox chips having some newer IP blocks. You can go out and buy a "AMD BC-250" bitcoin miner and see exactly what can and cannot be done with the HW.

Yh I remember it was Microsoft who were pushing the whole "Full RDNA 2" marketing crap during the launch period. Seems like we're still suffering from that even though it didn't work out for Microsoft given the performance parity between the two consoles.

 

[Damigos]

Bu bu but every one here says exclusives don't matter anymore. They will sell the same if everything they make is ported elsewhere.

They matter to me. I am old school, and still believe exclusives are the backbone or any console that respects itself and its customers and wish to sell tons of hardware.

 

[Audiophile]

Any upgrades on the SSD based on PCIE gen 5? 10GB/sec to 20 GB/sec perhaps?

I'm expecting Gen 5 just as a matter of course, but I don't see any reason to push the speed super high. It seems like the few games pushing the SSD hardest at full fidelity barely need half of what the PS5 is capable of. They could make the general Kraken decompression a bit more efficient too, and if we get Neural Texture Decompression then a lot more data can be pushed through in one go.

Plus if you have a good amount of RAM you could probably just pull in all the immediate asset data you need in a couple seconds and not really need to move a lot in and out.

If PS6 is going into manufacture mid-'27 I can see a config like this, which'll be quite cheap and efficient:

2TB PCIe 5.0 x4 NVMe @ 9-11GB/s RAW
4x 4Tb/512GB Chips
4Ch + 4-Lanes @ ~2.40-2.95GB/s each (encoding overhead)
Custom Storage Controller (similar to PS5 but scaled up linearly) & Kraken Decompression with slightly increased efficiency.
1GB LPDDR4 SSD Cache (1x8Gb x16 @ 2.67Gbps)
+ Neural Texture Decompression in the GPU (via Compute and/or Matrix Cores?)

Could probably argue they don't really need Gen 5 at all and could just use Gen 4 but I doubt there's a significant cost saving to be had in the long run; plus Gen 5 might even open up more efficient configs in the long run; so it may not be worth locking yourself out of the standard out of the gate.

 

[Panajev2001a]

There's really is no reason to guess. AMD themselves have confirmed that the PS5 GPU (gfx1013) is essentially the same as Navi 10 (+ RT cores) in open source commits (LLVM etc) years and years ago. The only reason this is contested or controversial is because of console wars and the Xbox chips having some newer IP blocks. You can go out and buy a "AMD BC-250" bitcoin miner and see exactly what can and cannot be done with the HW.

Not much to guess (remember the poster, but will still say that guessing everything from LLVM open source driver commits is a limited path to understand the semi custom HW inside PS5) but to the point is that there was direct and clear disclosure for both PS5 and PS5 Pro and reopening that does not really bring anything forward. PS5 Pro being RDNA2 (CUs) + some RDNA4 (RT)/RDNA3(Geometry Engine) + custom ML and PS5 being RDNA2 based (RT+CUs+Geometry Engine) + RDNA1 (ROPs) is just how it was.
In both industry and dev circles Cerny is seen as clear and prone to understate things rather than the other way around. Nobody ever came forward and dispute what he disclosed in the road to PS5 and road to PS5 Pro videos which were aimed at a mix of users and devs.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I'm expecting Gen 5 just as a matter of course, but I don't see any reason to push the speed super high. It seems like the few games pushing the SSD hardest at full fidelity barely need half of what the PS5 is capable of. They could make the general Kraken decompression a bit more efficient too, and if we get Neural Texture Decompression then a lot more data can be pushed through in one go.

Plus if you have a good amount of RAM you could probably just pull in all the immediate asset data you need in a couple seconds and not really need to move a lot in and out.

If PS6 is going into manufacture mid-'27 I can see a config like this, which'll be quite cheap and efficient:

2TB PCIe 5.0 x4 NVMe @ 9-11GB/s RAW
4x 4Tb/512GB Chips
4Ch + 4-Lanes @ ~2.40-2.95GB/s each (encoding overhead)
Custom Storage Controller (similar to PS5 but scaled up linearly) & Kraken Decompression with slightly increased efficiency.
1GB LPDDR4 SSD Cache (1x8Gb x16 @ 2.67Gbps)
+ Neural Texture Decompression in the GPU (via Compute and/or Matrix Cores?)

Could probably argue they don't really need Gen 5 at all and could just use Gen 4 but I doubt there's a significant cost saving to be had in the long run; plus Gen 5 might even open up more efficient configs in the long run; so it may not be worth locking yourself out of the standard out of the gate.

One would also hope they can reduce latency for SSD to RAM data and that bandwidth does not fall behind the RAM bandwidth as it would make it even less easy to take advantage of. Then again this is something partially solved by an increased SSD cache but also by raising data transfers once you take into account updated Kraken decompression and possibly additional techniques as you were mentioning to amplify data transfer speeds.

Even if RAM were to grow to 32 GB I see ML/AI techniques to consume a fair bit and most of all asset quality to potentially take a fair bit step up as well, I think they made a point to limit the "seconds of gameplay" they store in RAM ahead to maximise what is used per frame vs what you prefetch.

Then again, between doubling RAW SSD bandwidth, updated Kraken decoder, and other techniques they should be able to close the gap with increased memory speed without increasing the cost of the console too much. PS6's seem to prioritise a bit more cost effectiveness than before which I guess these days makes sense. It does not mean it will not be an improvement (likely it will be a big RT jump over PS5 and PS5 Pro, but not a super large die either), but it will not target $700-900+ MSRP either,

 

[KeplerL2]

You need to check your math. 3x a 2070 Super gets you to a ~5080. As for feature set, who knows what is in the pipeline, but considering the 2020 PS5 failed to match 2018 Nvidia cards in feature set, I wouldn't be too optimistic they have something the 5000 series does not.

RDNA5 is a pretty forward looking uarch. They have every feature Blackwell has and then some.

 

[foamdino]

Wait. are the two lower bars in the lower right corner due to GaaS or what?

The two lower bars are what happens when there's no global lockdown in place and people can spend money outside. The entire industry thought that 2020-2021 was real life and expanded accordingly, now we're seeing the contraction as reality of people not buying the same amount of home based entertainment bites.

 

[Justin9mm]

Agreed. I mean I'll get the PS6 because why not? A one time payment of $700 for a device I will use for 3+ years (until the next pro version) is cheap to me. I can sell my Ps5P if I wanted to on top of that and it would cost even less. Gaming is just a very cheap hobby especially in the console space.

It's definitely cheaper than my shooting hobby lol

 

[Panajev2001a]

Source is from AMD drivers.
You can look them up yourself.

The table is from Locuza, he was a member here. He just compiled all the information to make it easier. You can check out his Twitter.

I get that but taking from an open source driver info about codenames and GCN versions and extrapolating it has limits with console specific semi custom designs and how much we want to think they would leak exactly inside the open source AMD driver. Navi 10 being full RDNA1 and Navi 10 Lite having RDNA2 RT and Geometry Engine and CUs and yet a GCN version that is numerically much older than the 5700?
RDNA2 having

This whole derail started because of the repeated old console wars claim of "nothing RDNA2 in PS5 but the RT IP" and "PS5 Pro being custom RDNA2.x with RDNA3/4 features is as much BS as PS5 and RDNA2" which is not correct.

Even people that looked at the CU layouts, Cerny's presentations (including the PS5 Pro ones talking about the CU ISA), AMD public comments, etc… were very clear about the makeup of each GPU: PS5 having mostly RDNA2 components (albeit an earlier revision than what shipped in XSX) with some RDNA1 derived ones (like the ROPs hence no VRS tier 2 but then other features inherited from PS4 Pro like HW MRRTs) while PS5 Pro had RDNA2 ISA compatible CUs, pre-release RDNA4 RT IPs, seemingly RDNA3 improvements to the geometry engine, and custom enhancements for ML (that are not quite what RDNA4 did get but close enough to get support for a version of FSR4).

This does not take away from XSX having a newer more complete RDNA2 implementation or does not mean Sony invented RDNA4. It is just about giving credit where credit is due.

If people want to be Cerny fanboys saying that PS5 is custom RDNA1 instead of custom RDNA2 just makes his design choices even smarter given the results in the field so to speak… so whatever …

 

[StreetsofBeige]

The two lower bars are what happens when there's no global lockdown in place and people can spend money outside. The entire industry thought that 2020-2021 was real life and expanded accordingly, now we're seeing the contraction as reality of people not buying the same amount of home based entertainment bites.

Tech was the only industry that went ape shit expanding during easy covid sales thinking a new norm formed. Not surprisingly, the one hard goods kind of company that rode the stupidity into the ground basically killing the company was Peloton, which makes money off monthly sub plans (techie kind of product and revenue stream).

Other industries that made good money off people due to stay at home and fear of germs were consumer goods (this includes any health and safety items like hand sanitizer or masks etc..), grocery chains, and I think (I might be wrong) any big fast food chain still allowed to be open made great money as the drive through lines were giant. So it shows even when there's death counts and nobody knows anything about whether their mask can filter out microbes they still want their Big Macs and fries. lol

I dont get a sense these kinds of companies all amped up hiring 50% more people, building more stores and factories asap. No chain said.... holy shit sales are zooming due to hoarders and everyone cooking at home. Let's hurry up and lease and renovate a bunch of buildings asap. We could hire more 10,000 more people where 18 months from now we could get up 300 more stores.

A lot of these companies purposely stunted employee growth sometimes because there's a fear of germs and contamination. So for a lot of these companies they couldnt or wouldnt because floor space and factory lines had to be spread out by whatever rules their city put in like 6 ft safety gaps or for any office brave enough to still have people come in (not every laptop user WFH), the office might had been spread out and people wear masks too. So when you got rules that counter more people getting hired, a lot of businesses didnt even bother. Just go with what they got and wait for covid to fizzle out. Then everything back to normal.

Tech companies were probably mostly WFH, so when combined with zooming sales they all thought it's easy to just ramp up as many WFH people as possible. Hire the guy in an online interview and then get IT to ship the guy a company PC and smartphone. Fast forward, sales went down and normalized, guys like Peloton got wrecked as (low and behold) people realized buying a $3000 exercise bike and monthly sub fee is retarded when you can go back to the gym that has more than bikes, and a lot of tech companies had no idea what to do but cut people.

Also contributing to the layoffs is any overhiring of junky DEI workers (another seemingly tech heavy thing), which they realized the past couple years totally fizzled out, sales can drop, people fight back at it being smothering political stupidity, and there goes more fired people.

Tech is an industry that has a lot of money and wild west product strategies, so you'll get huge roller coasters of hiring with money coming out their ears when things are going great, but when shit hits the fan they go into huge firing modes.

 

[Panajev2001a]

RDNA5 is a pretty forward looking uarch. They have every feature Blackwell has and then some.

Now that is interesting, IPC wise the rumors are of a less than 10% increase (over RDNA4… so overall there is a sizeable increase over RDNA2) but then we have a big difference in feature set?

Do you see this "and then some" RT and AI based? One would hope it is what they would build the next gen hook on. PS5 had SSD (and the new I/O complex), UHD Blu-Ray, RT, and the new haptics (and custom 3D sound)… but PS6?

Full Path Tracing at 1440p+ (PSSR 2.x upscaled) and 60 FPS would be a big jump over what both PS5 and PS5 Pro would bring. For some users the real fusion of quality and performance would be nice (Quality mode at 60 FPS for PS5 / PS5 Pro BC titles).

Frame generation + AI upscale all titles could use (some games might migrate away en mass from lower quality TAA and temporal upscaling solutions like Unreal TSR)

Other items could be enhanced haptics (anything enhanced is not a hook in and of itself I understand) and maybe Hall Effect analog sticks… but maybe they go Nintendo and bet on other gimmicks… would not be surprised if they added two back buttons and provided a low resolution very low power mini display in place of the touch pad.

 

[BlazeEcho97]

I would not takes these leaks seriously by now, especially for ps6 which should release later next xbox, i assume? I think more reliable leaks about specifications we'll see next year when Sony's first party studios get first devkits of consoles similar to ps5 leaks back in 2019

 

[Bojji]

If people want to be Cerny fanboys saying that PS5 is custom RDNA1 instead of custom RDNA2 just makes his design choices even smarter given the results in the field so to speak… so whatever …

RDNA1 cores vs. RDNA2 cores for raster wouldn't make any fucking difference, they have the same "IPC". Cerny wasn't exactly smart here, he used what was available and looks like RDNA2 features weren't available when they locked down silicon for PS5. PS5 is using almost stock AMD RDNA1 (+RT from RDNA2) GPU vs. heavily customized (ML) GPU for PS5 Pro.

If he was so against MS/VRS/SFS/MS in PS5 GPU why he left them in PS5 Pro? I'm sure AMD could have removed them from GPU on his request...

You can believe whatever you want, many people posted things that prove what I have said but if you want to believe official PR talk that's up to you.

 

[Panajev2001a]

RDNA1 cores vs. RDNA2 cores for raster wouldn't make any fucking difference, they have the same "IPC". Cerny wasn't exactly smart here, he used what was available and looks like RDNA2 features weren't available when they locked down silicon for PS5. PS5 is using almost stock AMD RDNA1 (+RT from RDNA2) GPU vs. heavily customized (ML) GPU for PS5 Pro.

If he was so against MS/VRS/SFS/MS in PS5 GPU why he left them in PS5 Pro? I'm sure AMD could have removed them from GPU on his request...

Likely because the features were already there and it was cheaper to build upon them (and integrate RDNA3/4 features) for a premium higher profits margin based SoC. They were designing a chip for end of 2024 not 2020.

I did not say he was against them, but when designing PS5 these were not features he wanted to pay for and/or wait for them. It was more important to get final silicon sooner and it was another smart bet. Some RDNA2 features were not available yet, but you are jumping the gun there. Also, Cerny went again on record very specifically on why he did not move beyond RDNA2 ISA for the CUs with PS5 Pro GPU (RT units aside) because he wanted PS5 Pro shaders to be binary compatible with PS5 so whether you like it or not you either call PS5 Pro stock RDNA1 with tacked on future RDNA2 RT or you concede that maybe the point on PS5 you say you do not even care that much might be a bit off the mark).

You are hell bent to say this is stock RDNA1 with tacked on RDNA2 RT but have no proof for it. People did take a look to the final chip layouts and they saw nothing to contradict what Cerny stated that PS5 is RDNA2 based (RDNA2 / Shader Engines + RT + Geometry Engine; RDNA1 customised ROPS… this is what most people have agreed upon and what Cerny stated essentially).

You can believe whatever you want, many people posted things that prove what I have said but if you want to believe official PR talk that's up to you.

Many more people have over the year posted things that prove the opposite and it would be trivial for info to prove what you are saying to come out with PS5 Pro coming out and then doubling down on technical talks. One thing Cerny has never been known in his career is PR fluff (under him the developer relations from the platform holder side tend to be conservative rather than not… some VRS like functionality PS4 Pro added like MRRT accelerated in HW never came out for example, this is no Emption Engine or Broadband Engine puzzles hype that is boasted about but hard for most to unlock), but I guess you can prove the opposite .
Then again the design and market performance of their choices speaks for themselves so far (we will see for later, it is a bit of a departure they are taking with PS6 base design goals but understandable too).

Both XSX and PS5 are semi custom designs that take what they need from RDNA2 and RDNA1, neither is stock RDNA1 with some RDNA2 stuff tacked on (see die shots below) and neither is desktop RDNA2 (see comments about desktop RDNA2 and XSX for example):

 

[SuperC]

Sony should make the Pro console from the beginning, PS6 will be weak as fuck with those pathetic numbers

 

[PeteBull]

Its only middle of 2025 currently, guys, tons still can change, if we assume holidays 2028 ps6 launch, and hell if sony makes it to holidays 2027 with launch, that is still well over 2 years left.
First lets see what next gen of nvidia and amd gpu's gonna bring, so early/mid 2027, then we can roughly estimate whats possible and probable in terms of console form factor

 

[Bojji]

Likely because the features were already there and it was cheaper to build upon them (and integrate RDNA3/4 features) for a premium higher profits margin based SoC. They were designing a chip for end of 2024 not 2020.

I did not say he was against them, but when designing PS5 these were not features he wanted to pay for and/or wait for them. It was more important to get final silicon sooner and it was another smart bet. Some RDNA2 features were not available yet, but you are jumping the gun there. Also, Cerny went again on record very specifically on why he did not move beyond RDNA2 ISA for the CUs with PS5 Pro GPU (RT units aside) because he wanted PS5 Pro shaders to be binary compatible with PS5 so whether you like it or not you either call PS5 Pro stock RDNA1 with tacked on future RDNA2 RT or you concede that maybe the point on PS5 you say you do not even care that much might be a bit off the mark).

You are hell bent to say this is stock RDNA1 with tacked on RDNA2 RT but have no proof for it. People did take a look to the final chip layouts and they saw nothing to contradict what Cerny stated that PS5 is RDNA2 based (RDNA2 / Shader Engines + RT + Geometry Engine; RDNA1 customised ROPS… this is what most people have agreed upon and what Cerny stated essentially).


Many more people have over the year posted things that prove the opposite and it would be trivial for info to prove what you are saying to come out with PS5 Pro coming out and then doubling down on technical talks. One thing Cerny has never been known in his career is PR fluff (under him the developer relations from the platform holder side tend to be conservative rather than not… some VRS like functionality PS4 Pro added like MRRT accelerated in HW never came out for example, this is no Emption Engine or Broadband Engine puzzles hype that is boasted about but hard for most to unlock), but I guess you can prove the opposite .
Then again the design and market performance of their choices speaks for themselves so far (we will see for later, it is a bit of a departure they are taking with PS6 base design goals but understandable too).

Both XSX and PS5 are semi custom designs that take what they need from RDNA2 and RDNA1, neither is stock RDNA1 with some RDNA2 stuff tacked on (see die shots below) and neither is desktop RDNA2 (see comments about desktop RDNA2 and XSX for example):

Nice wall of text and pictures.

You know why it's PR? Because both consoles aren't really RDNA2 and both should be called "Custom RDNA" like on that diagram posted before:

Cerny, Lisa Su and MS people called their products RDNA2 the same way that HDMI forum allows HDMI 2.0 products to be called "HDMI 2.1", supporting none of the features (or even speed). It's classic PR.

Difference is, there is nothing in common between PS5 and RDNA2 GPU besides RT cores while Series X supports most of the stuff RDNA2 offers over RDNA1. PS5 Pro shows that you can use RT features from upcoming GPU lineup (RDNA4 in this case) and use them with older architecture, same was probably done with PS5.

I stop posting about this stuff right now, it's irrelevant for PS6 and goes nowhere.

 

[PlayStaytion]

Damn!!! all these heavy arguments came from gaffers who spend on expensive rigs that costs them an arm and a leg but they pretend it didn't cost them anything. I know y'all paid your hard earned money for that.

 

[SplunkyMunkey]

If the specs of the ps6 is real and is 2x less cu . Small gpu and bus speed to boot and less cores of the cpu compared to rumoured 11 cores on xbox magnus then you definitely won't be seeing me getting a ps6 when it releases. I know its about pricing but I'm willing to bet that people would pay the same price or slightly higher on what they paid for ps5 pro for the spec on magnus

 

[Loxus]

If the specs of the ps6 is real and is 2x less cu . Small gpu and bus speed to boot and less cores of the cpu compared to rumoured 11 cores on xbox magnus then you definitely won't be seeing me getting a ps6 when it releases. I know its about pricing but I'm willing to bet that people would pay the same price or slightly higher on what they paid for ps5 pro for the spec on magnus

I agree.

I highly doubt price is the issue.
Though some don't agree with VGChartz, it still gives us an idea.
PS5 vs PS4 Sales Comparison - April 2025 - Sales

The PS5 pricing still has it on track to reach a 100 million.

I can see the PS6 price being $599-699.
I don't know if it's Sony's idea to have a cheap next gen console or if it was just a proposal from AMD but imo, if cost was an issue, both the PS5 and PS5 Pro would be cheaper right now.

 

[Physiognomonics]

I agree.

I highly doubt price is the issue.
Though some don't agree with VGChartz, it still gives us an idea.
PS5 vs PS4 Sales Comparison - April 2025 - Sales

The PS5 pricing still has it on track to reach a 100 million.

I can see the PS6 price being $599-699.
I don't know if it's Sony's idea to have a cheap next gen console or if it was just a proposal from AMD but imo, if cost was an issue, both the PS5 and PS5 Pro would be cheaper right now.

I agree. And with a cheaper handheld, the cross-gen period that would never end and a still compelling PS5, there is even more reasons to release an expensive PS6. Something is amiss with that cheap PS6 leak.

 

[Loxus]

I agree. And with a cheaper handheld, the cross-gen period that would never end and a still compelling PS5, there is even more reasons to release an expensive PS6. Something is amiss with that cheap PS6 leak.

Well at the bottom of both his Orion and Canis leak, he has this.

*Info taken from a 2023 AMD Presentation to Sony.

So the end result can be completely different than what these leaks are.

 

[Det]

RDNA1 is more powerful flop for flop than RDNA2... I hope you know that lol.
also the PS5 lacks basically all RDNA2 features except for Ray intersection hardware.

no VRS tier 2, no Mesh Shaders etc.

also it was clear that some earlier versions of the chip lacked RT, but everyone knew the final version wouldn't.

Still repeating the script that MS, with dog whistles and manipulation, trained you?

 

[Panajev2001a]

Nice wall of text and pictures.

You know why it's PR? Because both consoles aren't really RDNA2 and both should be called "Custom RDNA" like on that diagram posted before:

Cerny, Lisa Su and MS people called their products RDNA2 the same way that HDMI forum allows HDMI 2.0 products to be called "HDMI 2.1", supporting none of the features (or even speed). It's classic PR.

Difference is, there is nothing in common between PS5 and RDNA2 GPU besides RT cores while Series X supports most of the stuff RDNA2 offers over RDNA1. PS5 Pro shows that you can use RT features from upcoming GPU lineup (RDNA4 in this case) and use them with older architecture, same was probably done with PS5.

I stop posting about this stuff right now, it's irrelevant for PS6 and goes nowhere.

Ok, so you did not read anything and just answered back with the same answer as before without changing one iota. Then again not possible to doubt yourself if you do not read and engage with what others present…

Neither console is desktop RDNA2 and neither is RDNA1, both are RDNA2 based as they take the bulk of the architectural features and the components from a final or close to final RDNA2 revision.
There are many elements which are RDNA2 based including the CUs. You can see yourself that the units themselves look very different from the RDNA1 ones (see the die shots shared above) and can connect the dots between PS5 Pro being custom RDNA2.x (with elements from RDNA3 and RDNA4 too… or are you making the case that PS5 Pro also shares everything with RDNA1 except the RT units ?) and sharing the same exact shader binaries with PS5 which would be a problem if say PS5 Pro CUs were RDNA3 based / changed to the latest and greatest ISA… or you can keep being stubborn and repeat the claim you are making that PS5's GPU is stock RDNA1 with RT tacked on top (which is not grounded and it is the original claim you made).

 

[Panajev2001a]

Well at the bottom of both his Orion and Canis leak, he has this.

*Info taken from a 2023 AMD Presentation to Sony.

So the end result can be completely different than what these leaks are.

He did say he verified some information more recently with his sources when talking about Canis. Still that kind of strategic direction could have been decided back then… I would expect final price and how much they wanted to subsidise it would be a decision they make pretty early on (still it could change and has a fair bit of wiggle room potentially).

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

He did say he verified some information more recently with his sources when talking about Canis. Still that kind of strategic direction could have been decided back then… I would expect final price and how much they wanted to subsidise it would be a decision they make pretty early on (still it could change and has a fair bit of wiggle room potentially).

I would assume PS does it close to the same but I know Xbox would sit down even before a current system launches and start getting ideas of approx what specs they could get for a set price for next gen which includes ideas from AMD

So loose specs even 5 years out would be quite common, this stuff doesn't happen overnight

Not saying these specs are correct because frankly its over my head in what most of this stuff means, just saying I do believe this presentation took place in 2023 for PS6 hardware launching 5 years later

 

[Det]

I was going to comment on the pattern of PS4 and PS5 leaks...

But better not to comment, I say that Phill and his fanboys do not learn from past mistakes

 

[Panajev2001a]

I would assume PS does it close to the same but I know Xbox would sit down even before a current system launches and start getting ideas of approx what specs they could get for a set price for next gen which includes ideas from AMD

So loose specs even 5 years out would be quite common, this stuff doesn't happen overnight

Not saying these specs are correct because frankly its over my head in what most of this stuff means, just saying I do believe this presentation took place in 2023 for PS6 hardware launching 5 years later

Yep agreed, the lead time to get a new console launching is not trivial. Some specs can change, see Xbox 360 512 MB of unified RAM and PS4's 8 GB of RAM (GDDR5), but if major things do change (see PS3's GPU) something fucked up happened and you will be shipping late and/or with problems (again see PS3's RSX and bugs shipped with it).

 

[GoldenEye98]

Yep agreed, the lead time to get a new console launching is not trivial. Some specs can change, see Xbox 360 512 MB of unified RAM and PS4's 8 GB of RAM (GDDR5).

PS4's 8GB of GDDR5 seems crazier in hindsight when you consider that decision was probably made in 2011/2012? and we still have gpu's shipping with that amount today. I know it's not exactly apples to apples but still....

 

[demigod]

Ok, so you did not read anything and just answered back with the same answer as before without changing one iota. Then again not possible to doubt yourself if you do not read and engage with what others present…

Neither console is desktop RDNA2 and neither is RDNA1, both are RDNA2 based as they take the bulk of the architectural features and the components from a final or close to final RDNA2 revision.
There are many elements which are RDNA2 based including the CUs. You can see yourself that the units themselves look very different from the RDNA1 ones (see the die shots shared above) and can connect the dots between PS5 Pro being custom RDNA2.x (with elements from RDNA3 and RDNA4 too… or are you making the case that PS5 Pro also shares everything with RDNA1 except the RT units ?) and sharing the same exact shader binaries with PS5 which would be a problem if say PS5 Pro CUs were RDNA3 based / changed to the latest and greatest ISA… or you can keep being stubborn and repeat the claim you are making that PS5's GPU is stock RDNA1 with RT tacked on top (which is not grounded and it is the original claim you made).

Don't waste your time with Bojji. Dude couldn't tell if a game was 30 fps or 60 fps. He was also wrong about PS5 Pro on Dragon's Dogma 2.

 

[Det]

Get ready for two more years of lunatic Xbox fanboys repeating the same shit from the current generation on the next.

 

[Bojji]

Still repeating the script that MS, with dog whistles and manipulation, trained you?

I like that you see everything as console war nonsense.

Don't waste your time with Bojji. Dude couldn't tell if a game was 30 fps or 60 fps. He was also wrong about PS5 Pro on Dragon's Dogma 2.

And what game was that?

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Get ready for two more years of lunatic Xbox fanboys repeating the same shit from the current generation on the next.

You realize those people do this shit for the clicks and only a very small handful do it here just to irritate people right?

 

[Zathalus]

RDNA5 is a pretty forward looking uarch. They have every feature Blackwell has and then some.

While I fully expect it to match Blackwell do you have any idea what "then some" could be? RT wise I know that Cerny patent exists and DX12 is getting native support for OMM and SER with DXR 1.2 (which I assume RDNA5 will support, and hence Sony will have their own API equivalent), but I'm not sure what else is on the horizon? Cooperative vectors? But I believe Blackwell supports that as well.