Correct. Orion also has a second meaning as a reference to Transformers: Orion Pax (Optimus Prime), Ultra Magnus and Alpha Trion.
[MLiD] PS6 Early Specs Leak: AMD RDNA 5, Lower Price than PS5 Pro!
- Thread starter Lunatic_Gamer
- Start date
- News Rumor Hype
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Okay gotcha! Makes sense.
StreetsofBeige
Member
From Feb 2024 when wall street noticed dropping gaming margins. The analysts forgot about all the GAAS games in dev too. They also forgot gaming division margins were actually 13% for years if you go back further. And yes, the Bungie buy out would be a cost too since $1.2B were retention payouts. Every dollar dished out in cash to stop people from quitting is a direct drop to the bottom line.
PlayStation operating margins plunge to decade-lows, wiping $10 billion off Sony’s market value | Game World Observer
Despite strong revenue growth, many investors and analysts were disappointed by the performance of Sony’s gaming business in the most recent fiscal quarter. The main reason was the company’s declining margins.
gameworldobserver.com
Despite strong revenue growth, many investors and analysts were disappointed by the performance of Sony's gaming business in the most recent fiscal quarter. The main reason was the company's declining margins.
- As reported by CNBC, Sony shares fell shortly after the release of its Q3 report last week, wiping around $10 billion off the Japanese company's market cap.
- One of the reasons was the lowering of the PlayStation 5 sales forecast, as Sony now expects to sell 21 million units of its current-gen console in the fiscal year ending March 31, 2024 (instead of 25 million). PS5 sales also reached 8.2 million units in the third quarter, 1 million below expectations.
- However, the biggest concern for analysts was the continued decline in operating margin in the company's Game & Network Services segment. According to CNBC, it reached just 6%, down from 9% in the same period last year (ended December 31, 2022).
- It is worth noting that prior to the fourth fiscal quarter of 2022 (from January to March 2022), its gaming margins were around 12-13% in the previous four years.
- Jefferies equity analyst Atul Goyal called PlayStation's single-digit margin "extremely disappointing." "Their rev (revenue) on digital sales, add-on-content, digital-downloads are at all time highs… And yet their margins are at decade-lows. This is just not acceptable," he told CNBC.
- Kantan Games CEO Serkan Toto cited increased video game production costs as one of the reasons for the declining margins.
However, AAA production is getting more unsustainable and probably cannot be offset by growth in digital sales and other higher-margin products like subscriptions.
Sony Group president and COO Hiroki Totoki, who will soon succeed Jim Ryan as CEO of Sony Interactive Entertainment, sees the lack of growth as the main problem of the company's gaming division. He thinks that SIE doesn't "necessarily have deep understanding of how their work is being translated to growth, generation of sustainable profits and higher margin for the unit as a whole."
It is unclear how exactly Sony plans to improve its gaming margins, but Totoki also told investors that the company won't launch "any new major existing franchise titles next fiscal year" (ending March 31, 2025). Instead, PlayStation will mostly rely on third-party titles and platform exclusives from its partners like Square Enix (Final Fantasy VII Rebirth).
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viveks86
Member
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Dalbajobas
Member
Typo? The gap looks to be expanding. ps5/seriesx was roughly 2x weaker than whats available at the time for PC, before launch. Don't remember that to be the case before. With ps6 it could be even worse, if any of theses sad rumors are true.
LuckyLuke
Neo Member
Exactly. I imagine that the PS6 AI will be updated and improved over time. A bit like what's happening with the PS5 Pro.
Horseganador
Member
"""Orion specs were not final in 2023, and I directly suggested Sony will likely increase CUs.""" In short, it's better to wait and see what Cerny is cooking up for 2027 because nothing is certain yet.
Embearded
Member
I don't know if cheaper guarantees a win. Series S sold more than X but not even close to what PS5 sold.
Maybe it's also the software, I don't know.
Also, i hope they will only port the GaaS stuff and let their first party studios focus on Sony consoles and provide the best possible games instead of "losing" time to optimize for S, Switch 2 etc.
Loxus
Member
Orion was the leader and Magnus was second in command.
Do you think those names go in correlation to how powerful the PS6 and the next Xbox are?
No it's just a reference, like how XSX SoC was codenamed Arden
ShadyAcshuns
Member
"fool me once" etc. there are still PS4 games being made ffs.
HJuggernaut
Member
Ok so here is the scope of what we know so far
Nexbox:
68 CUs (70) RDNA5 or RDNA4/5 mix
192bit bus, 12 memory channels most likely using 2gb clusters so 24gb GDDR7 RAM @32ggps giving us 768GB/s
CPU 11 cores Zen 6, 3 Big cores Zen 6, 8 smaller cores Zen6C
most likely using binned 12 core chips. As the setup will have a chiplet design GPU/CPU
SSD (Speculation) 2TB @+10gb/s
price most likely 599 but MS can eat the loss and sell for 499. BOM is about 600+
launch most likely 2026.
PS6:
40-48CUs RDNA5 (proper) @3Ghz
160-192bit bus 10-12 memory channels most likely using 2gb clusters so 20-24 GDDRR7 @28gpps giving us 640gb/s
CPU 8 cores Zen 6
SSD (speculation) 2TB 10gb/s
launch mid/late 2027
once again Sony has a sleeker simpler more efficient design and MS is going with more custom stuff. powerwise in terms of graphics very comparable. maybe slight advantage ps6. But nexbox has cpu advantage. Also xbox comes out a year before ps6 so its tech won't be as new as ps6. either way very close to power.
Nexbox:
68 CUs (70) RDNA5 or RDNA4/5 mix
192bit bus, 12 memory channels most likely using 2gb clusters so 24gb GDDR7 RAM @32ggps giving us 768GB/s
CPU 11 cores Zen 6, 3 Big cores Zen 6, 8 smaller cores Zen6C
most likely using binned 12 core chips. As the setup will have a chiplet design GPU/CPU
SSD (Speculation) 2TB @+10gb/s
price most likely 599 but MS can eat the loss and sell for 499. BOM is about 600+
launch most likely 2026.
PS6:
40-48CUs RDNA5 (proper) @3Ghz
160-192bit bus 10-12 memory channels most likely using 2gb clusters so 20-24 GDDRR7 @28gpps giving us 640gb/s
CPU 8 cores Zen 6
SSD (speculation) 2TB 10gb/s
launch mid/late 2027
once again Sony has a sleeker simpler more efficient design and MS is going with more custom stuff. powerwise in terms of graphics very comparable. maybe slight advantage ps6. But nexbox has cpu advantage. Also xbox comes out a year before ps6 so its tech won't be as new as ps6. either way very close to power.
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TheRedRiders
Member
Well yeah they are changing everything, gfx13 is the biggest architectural overhaul since GCN.
Loxus
Member
So that means this is possible for RDNA5 as well?
That was a bit of a misunderstanding by me, CDNA supports double-FP32 through what's called "packed FP32" while RDNA3/4 supports through "VOPD" (dual-issue Vector Ops). MI400 series supports both (with massive improvements to VOPD utilization), however they cannot be used at the same time, so the VALU count per CU remains at 128.
gfx13 will likely only use the improved version of VOPD.
sncvsrtoip
Member
This whole gen was narration xss was bad decision as it was problematic to release game both on xss and xsx, imagine if sony will force their first party studios to relase games both on ps6 and handheld with 0.5 power of ps5 . Sony is realy on good path of digging own grave ;d
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ChorizoPicozo
Member
wasn't the memory configuration the issue with the s?
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Huh? The gap certainly isn't shrinking. At the time of the PS5's release, the 3090 was twice its performance. Even assuming a modest 30% improvement on average from the 5090 to 7090, you're looking at a GPU that will be 2.5x the performance of the PS6's GPU. That's assuming 3x when 2.5x is more likely, so you'd be looking at a 7090 that's thrice the performance of the PS6 GPU.
To put things into perspective, that'd be like having a 4080 or 5080 available instead of a 3090 back in late 2020.
If anything, the gap is widening because console manufacturers are no longer willing to take a beating on hardware to make up the money on software. Of course, this isn't factoring price. The 7090 could be $3000 for all we know.
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My guess is that they will try to sell raytracing vs no raytracing this gen. The games will have raytracing support on PS6 and limited or none on PS5.
The xbox one x was $500, the series x and S consoles $500 and $300. I think it will be around $600 for the PS6 if it is cheaper but may end up the same as its launch price at $700. Any cheaper and I will be very pleasantly surprised.
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sachos
Member
My two concerns are that it may not be powerful enough to play fully pathtraced games if it comes out in 2027 and that PS6 games will be held back by the handheld console. Only silver lining if the handheld is true and PS6 games run on it is that the PS6 power dif should be big enough to run all of them much better and possibly with many RT features added on top as a way to diferentiate them.
I'm not worried about a long cross gen period, that was obviously going to happen either way and it only requires you to change your frame of reference for when "next gen" starts. The late gen PS5 games will be played better on PS6, just like late gen PS4 games (GoWR, HFW, GT7) played better on PS5. I'm fine with as long as they also manage to release PS6 only games that take full advantage of the new hardware. (like it happened for PS5).
I'm not worried about a long cross gen period, that was obviously going to happen either way and it only requires you to change your frame of reference for when "next gen" starts. The late gen PS5 games will be played better on PS6, just like late gen PS4 games (GoWR, HFW, GT7) played better on PS5. I'm fine with as long as they also manage to release PS6 only games that take full advantage of the new hardware. (like it happened for PS5).
demigod
Member
Any reason why we are skipping the 6000 series? Maybe i missed something.
yogaflame
Member
Sony really needs the handheld because Sony is really getting killed in Japan by Nintendo especially with Japan market that now prefers handheld than console. I think Cerny and Sony Engineers can find a way not to make the same mistake of Xbox series x/s of forcing developers to have a downgraded version of a specific game for the game to work on xbox series s. Maybe there is a way on how a more powerful version of the game on console can be, on my own words miniaturize for PSPnextgen without adding work load and expenses to developers and compromising the quality of a game. Maybe there is a AI tools that can be use to automatically convert a specific game into a game for portable specs. I hope both ps6 game and pspnext gen are compatible to each other but of course common sense it can be done on digital version of the game only, thats the only problem. But as much I prefer physical, I'm okay with digital when it comes to backward compatibility of ps6 and pspnextgen.
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Ashamam
Member
With a lot of the focus on raw specs there is sometimes a lack of understanding that optimisations are ongoing in other areas. Get more out of less basically.
An example is the recent patent mentioned here.
tech4gamers.com
Ignoring the low information article... The meat of the patent is to use ML to allow an artist to create an asset, then generate an intermediate file (metadata basically) which will call a base texture and alter it in such a way that it looks like their original asset. Imagine one base texture for wood grain, and all variants in the game of wood grain are just descriptors of the base one. Say you had 10 types of wood grain textures, now you have one. Suddenly 2TB of storage looks like a lot when games are 20GB instead of 100GB in size. Presumably the base texture is also optimised up the wazoo to allow multi resolution upscaling/downscaling etc etc. The patent literally calls out putting the most used portion of the texture based on an analysis of the intermediate files in the top left of the texture as an example. So reconstruction of the texture for each variant generally won't have to read in much of the base texture anyway.
Anyway just an example of how understanding of raster power and the like in the past isn't necessarily representative of the future as new ML based tools come into being that do much more than just run FSR4 or whatever.
An example is the recent patent mentioned here.
New Sony Patent Could Drastically Reduce Size of AAA Games
Sony has published a new patent that wants to reduce the size of AAA games by changing how the textures in the games are stored and rendered.
tech4gamers.com
Ignoring the low information article... The meat of the patent is to use ML to allow an artist to create an asset, then generate an intermediate file (metadata basically) which will call a base texture and alter it in such a way that it looks like their original asset. Imagine one base texture for wood grain, and all variants in the game of wood grain are just descriptors of the base one. Say you had 10 types of wood grain textures, now you have one. Suddenly 2TB of storage looks like a lot when games are 20GB instead of 100GB in size. Presumably the base texture is also optimised up the wazoo to allow multi resolution upscaling/downscaling etc etc. The patent literally calls out putting the most used portion of the texture based on an analysis of the intermediate files in the top left of the texture as an example. So reconstruction of the texture for each variant generally won't have to read in much of the base texture anyway.
Anyway just an example of how understanding of raster power and the like in the past isn't necessarily representative of the future as new ML based tools come into being that do much more than just run FSR4 or whatever.
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sncvsrtoip
Member
for sure ps6 vs handheld power difference and memory configuration will be bigger than xsx vs xss
ChorizoPicozo
Member
for sure ps6 vs handheld power difference and memory configuration will be bigger than xsx vs xss
. is the series s a portable handheld?
Mr Moose
Member
You're not even being subtle.
Gaming hardware is mostly irrelevant now. Developers aren't constrained like they were in the past. Now they are themselves the limiting factor. Just look at how long it takes to ship a AAA ps5 game, which in the end is just a slightly prettier ps4 game. Game design has hit a wall, and this time developers can't use weak hardware as their excuse.
From Sony's perspective the ps6 will just be another device in their lineup that plugs into their ecosystem, similar to Apple's device family. The latest and greatest device, but they are not going to be adamant about transitioning every ps5 user because it really won't matter. It won't be the relevant metric for success. There won't be a single game made for ps6 that also won't be on ps5.
From Sony's perspective the ps6 will just be another device in their lineup that plugs into their ecosystem, similar to Apple's device family. The latest and greatest device, but they are not going to be adamant about transitioning every ps5 user because it really won't matter. It won't be the relevant metric for success. There won't be a single game made for ps6 that also won't be on ps5.
sncvsrtoip
Member
thats not the point, point is how it will affect first party studios to release games on both hw with such a big difference
Bojji
Member
If devs are indeed forced to make games work on both PS6 Portable and "desktop" PS6 then the situation will be FAR WORSE than what we had this gen.
On the other hand, this way PS5 will get new games until ~2034.
Mr Moose
Member
I don't see how they could mandate that, a 6TF handheld vs whatever main console, the gap is too large. Sure, TF isn't everything and there's upscaling and shit so I guess it could work. Maybe with a wifi streaming option.
viveks86
Member
I refuse to believe this is the route they will go until Cerny calmly whispers it in my ears before launch while I'm soakin' in my bathtub. And then I'll scream bloody murder!
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ChorizoPicozo
Member
"far worse"?
AAA devs can't even take advantage of the hardware they have now, either because of budget or talent (tech know-how).
If next-gen hardware is "basically the same" as this gen, and devs better spent time figuring out a way to make games cheaper and faster, as well as tackling engine optimization, it would be the better outcome. Consoles can't brute-force their way to performance anyway, and games can't cost $600M.
IT'S TIME TO STAPH.
Because they aren't targeting the same resolution and frame rates? If the target for the PS6 console is 4K60 and 1080p30 for the handheld that's an 8x difference in pixels per second.
I don't think they will go this route because it's not a Series S situation. MS spent a great deal of time and marketing to try and stress that "it will be the exact same experience just at a lower res". With a handheld I doubt they take this route just as steamdeck didn't. People understand that the handheld experience isn't the same and there will be little effort to convince the users it is.
So there will likely be no mandate and if there is (to try and get game support) it can exist for the crossgen period then be dropped when both the game library for the handheld is fleshed out and the next gen only games that might struggle on it begin to appear. MS made the mistake of not listening to devs who wanted the parity mandate dropped but at the same time they had promised their users the same experience and failed to deliver even that, not having continued game support would have been a lawsuit for sure. As long as PS doesn't try to market the handheld as "exactly the same as PS6 just portable" or something like that they will be fine.
viveks86
Member
And CPU? Not to mention the eventual path traced game that runs at 1080p30 on ps6. Making it mandatory seems like a disaster in the longer run and discourage devs to push the hardware. Optional with some additional marketing incentives seems totally acceptable. The rest will work through streaming anyway.
Will they have the same memory and CPU capabilities though? I don't think games scale that easy and this was a mistake that Series S made too.
Would the CPU be half as powerful on the handheld or significantly less?
Loxus
Member
I wonder if that's something for CDNA5/RDNA6 to achieve?
To run packed FP32 and VOPD at the same time, I think AMD would need:
1) Two ALU pipelines per SIMD lane, both supporting packed mode.
2) Register file & datapath widened for packed dual‑issue.
3) New ISA & compiler support
Benefits in games probably would be:
• 2–4× FP32 throughput in AI passes.
• Better, faster upscaling and denoising.
• Lower latency for real‑time AI effects.
Mr Moose
Member
CPU shouldn't be a problem for 30fps.
asdasdasdbb
Member
There won't need to be a mandate since developers will target PS5. But I think there will be one.
I can see them doing that when the PS6 install base is small at the beginning during that crossgen period but the series s really began to struggle when that crossgen period was over and next gen only games began. That was when devs started asking for the mandate to be dropped.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
High-end GPU's are also double the price that they used to be, and the drop-off in power moving down the product stack has grown increasingly sharp.
People need to start readjusting their expectations based on the state of the tech market as a whole. Expecting jumps like past generations is plainly "magical" thinking.
Especially given the power draw required by high-end components... I mean seriously, the form-factor is a key part of the console offer so bear in mind that its not only extreme bumps in performance being demanded, its that and TDP being kept under control.
viveks86
Member
Only if it is half as powerful. Is that even feasible? I don't know. This feels like a deja vu of Series S being a "1440p60 machine" because the math says so.
At some point the math breaks because of bottlenecks that weren't in the equation.
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Mr Moose
Member
My shitty 3600 can do 60fps pretty much always. 1440p would be GPU, 1080p might be CPU.
Series S problem was probably the RAM, the CPU was almost identical to the X.
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LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
Regardless of his reporting, and I do trust him, I do think they can achieve something like this if you remember what Mark corny said before PS5 launched and it ended up being true. Not to look into spec too much and the efficiency of the console has proven itself.
The 3600 can clock higher than a PS5 so it wouldn't struggle with most games designed to run at 60fps on PS5 despite the lower threads/cores. A handheld clocked much lower for battery life will hold the CPU use in games back on the bigger home machine though I'd imagine.
Mr Moose
Member
Yeah native res isn't as important these days. Switch 2 hitting above it's weight because of DLSS, Pro in some games looking amazing. FSR 4 hopefully becoming more widespread (because I have an AMD GPU lol).
Mine is capped at 3600Mhz. I disabled Processor Performance Boost because I was on the shitty stock cooler. Swapped it out for a Wraith Prism and it's much cooler but I like the wattage.
(I think it should be comparable to a PS5-ish? Or maybe a Pro since I am using a 9060XT. Old card was a 3060)
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